Join our Early Access Program for Project Catalog

Remi O · Oct 9, 2020 06:55:24 AM

This is an absolute dealbreaker for me. And frankly, I'm surprised it isn't for everyone.

Wes C wrote:
Theresa C wrote:
Hi Wes,
When a client buys your project, the idea is that they are agreeing to what you've pre-defined in your project. So a contract will be created and the milestone will be funded. You'll be notified whenever a purchase happens and a contract room will automatically be opened, at which point you can start messaging.

This is an absolute dealbreaker for me. And frankly, I'm surprised it isn't for everyone.

There is absolutely no way I would ever allow a contract to be automatically created for me without vetting the client, understanding their needs, and reviewing the material I'd be working on. The only way I'd consider using this is if it worked like the previous iteration where a chat is created with the client to discuss the project or even where an offer is created that can be further refined or declined.

I understand Upwork is offering 24 hours to back out of a contract created this way. That is not sufficient time to make a decision when clients often don't respond in that period or when a contract comes in late on a Friday night (I don't have much experience with this concept, but I understand some people take the weekends off). But even if it was 48 hours, 72 hours, or a full week: the experience of taking a client's money, then having to refund it because the client isn't a fit, the material isn't something I'd work on, or it doesn't meet the requirements of the predefined project, is not a good customer experience. I also see that this 24-hour back-out period is a limited time deal.

This is going to be a trainwreck of trashed JSSes and review histories.

I did go through the screens to create a project and found some limitations that would need to be tweaked before this would be useable even if we get past this one point, but I'll post those separately later.

100%

I started to create a project too but ...so many things could go wrong here.

So many.

Robert G · Oct 9, 2020 06:59:38 AM

As someone who does custom technology solutions, I see no value for me. I wonder if there are others who feel the same.

Mary Ann F · Oct 19, 2020 12:43:41 PM

My concern is if and when a client adds functionality or wants to "goldplate" a project and then refuses to adjust the schedule and budget. What is Upwork's method of handling this situation?

Susan S · Oct 19, 2020 01:34:50 PM

That is a concern of mine as well.

Wes C · Oct 9, 2020 10:48:05 AM

Wes C wrote:
Theresa C wrote:
Hi Wes,
When a client buys your project, the idea is that they are agreeing to what you've pre-defined in your project. So a contract will be created and the milestone will be funded. You'll be notified whenever a purchase happens and a contract room will automatically be opened, at which point you can start messaging.

This is an absolute dealbreaker for me. And frankly, I'm surprised it isn't for everyone.

Yes, I'm responding to myself, sorry. I want to make it clear that I'm not just talking about my field where it's difficult to prepackage projects to start with.

I can't think of any field where this is a good idea. There will always be people who misunderstand the predefined scope, resulting in either a canceled contract, a freelancer locked into an underpriced contract or into work on material they prefer not to touch, or a client getting less than they expected. All bad outcomes that can and should be avoided by a short discussion before the contract is started.

There is no circumstance where a freelancer should accept a contract without discussion ahead of time with the client.

Tiffany S · Oct 10, 2020 08:21:55 PM

Wes C wrote:
There is no circumstance where a freelancer should accept a contract without discussion ahead of time with the client.

I'm glad you weren't around to tell me this 30+ years when I started freelancing. It would have dramatically limited my income while significantly increasing the time I invested in unpaid aspects of the business.

Wes C · Oct 11, 2020 05:49:13 AM

Tiffany S wrote:
Wes C wrote:
There is no circumstance where a freelancer should accept a contract without discussion ahead of time with the client.
I'm glad you weren't around to tell me this 30+ years when I started freelancing. It would have dramatically limited my income while significantly increasing the time I invested in unpaid aspects of the business.

Let me qualify my statement: In the context of Upwork's JSS and feedback system, there is no circumstance where a freelancer should accept a contract without discussion ahead of time with the client. If there's no consequence for walking away from a bad client or objectionable material, then maybe it makes sense.

Tiffany S · Oct 12, 2020 01:01:36 PM

Wes C wrote:
Let me qualify my statement: In the context of Upwork's JSS and feedback system, there is no circumstance where a freelancer should accept a contract without discussion ahead of time with the client. If there's no consequence for walking away from a bad client or objectionable material, then maybe it makes sense.

I see your point, but I do it on Upwork, too. I wouldn't with the system they've set up here, since it doesn't allow sufficient definition of parameters. But, it's not unusual for me to get an offer in response to a proposal, submit the job and get paid with no discussion beyond the few words the contract acceptance process and submission process mandate.

Wes C · Oct 12, 2020 06:16:35 PM

Tiffany S wrote:
I see your point, but I do it on Upwork, too. I wouldn't with the system they've set up here, since it doesn't allow sufficient definition of parameters. But, it's not unusual for me to get an offer in response to a proposal, submit the job and get paid with no discussion beyond the few words the contract acceptance process and submission process mandate.

In essence, you're having a form of discussion here: you have a chance to see the specific requirements and the material or topic you're being asked to work with, vet the client, ask clarifying questions in your proposal if needed, etc.—all before deciding whether or not to accept the contract.

The fact that you have the chance to do all that before accepting the contract, or walking away from it, is the key point.

One of the things I foresee happening here is people being locked into contracts with clients they would never work with if they'd had a chance to scan the clients' review histories upfront, or with material they find objectionable and would avoid had they the chance to review it first.

Tiffany S · Oct 12, 2020 06:34:24 PM

Wes C wrote:
Tiffany S wrote:
I see your point, but I do it on Upwork, too. I wouldn't with the system they've set up here, since it doesn't allow sufficient definition of parameters. But, it's not unusual for me to get an offer in response to a proposal, submit the job and get paid with no discussion beyond the few words the contract acceptance process and submission process mandate.
In essence, you're having a form of discussion here: you have a chance to see the specific requirements and the material or topic you're being asked to work with, vet the client, ask clarifying questions in your proposal if needed, etc.—all before deciding whether or not to accept the contract.

The fact that you have the chance to do all that before accepting the contract, or walking away from it, is the key point.

One of the things I foresee happening here is people being locked into contracts with clients they would never work with if they'd had a chance to scan the clients' review histories upfront, or with material they find objectionable and would avoid had they the chance to review it first.

I generally agree with this and I can't see why it has to trigger a contract rather than an offer that has to be accepted. Everything else aside, that prevents a contract from auto-starting when someone is swamped or out of town for a few days or whatever.

But I think a lot of the concerns could be alleviated if the set-up were better and it were possible to fully scope out what's being offered. Of course, that wouldn't work for all types of work. But it would work for me for a couple of my most common offerings, if it weren't so poorly executed.