Terms of Service Update 2018

[Tracye G]

Thank you Lena for that clear answer.

[Jess C]

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@Lena E wrote:

Tracye,

I'm sorry that you're finding our answers unclear. Yes, you can provide contact info prior to entering a contract in private communication, as the process has always been. There has been no change to this. 

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Stop gaslighting. There was a change, and then you changed it back. This is not the same as "no change."

[Kim F]

• If there is every any doubt, you should go back and read the Terms of Service.

 I think it’s apparent that although we may be unusual, those on this thread have been doing precisely that. This insult was unnecessary.

• Users must be able to enter into legally binding contracts in order to use Upwork - that is the requirement here.  If anyone on this thread is under 18 and would like to know how this provision relates to them, we advise you to reach out to your own legal advisors.

 What about where the age of majority might be *higher* than 18?

 Given the potential complexity of people from different locations being entitled to work on Upwork from different ages, at the least there may be confused CS agents. And if someone moves location, will they potentially lose their account? Is this being monitored?  I personally don’t give a fig whether someone younger than 18 works on Upwork. However, it does bother me that building such additional complexity into the terms for eligibility opens up the potential for error, increase in complaints etc. And that is assuming that CS agents will be receiving training regarding the differing ages appropriate to being accepted from different locations.

• Both “timely” and “complete” are common words that do not need definitions in the Terms of Service. 

Not if you know what they are intended to mean. ‘Timely’ could refer to within three days, a week, a month…  Does ‘complete’ include (for example) tax information?

• … if you have questions about how the terms apply to your specific situation, or continuing your use of Upwork after these go into effect, please reach out to your legal advisors.

Are you really asking that our ‘legal advisors’ contact Upwork with any future queries regarding the ToS? You’d prefer my lawyer to talk to your lawyer rather than publically answer questions?

[Douglas Michael M]

Good luck enforcing your contract terms in the US states that confer majority at age 19 or 20. I assume this will be done as part of registration review.

[Douglas Michael M]

Lena E wrote:

1. Serious confusion over new language about hourly sub-contracting, brought up by me and by Ela K, most recently here

We believe our explanation was clear and, given that we have always had agencies on Upwork that enabled freelancers to subcontract on hourly projects, this is not a change.   If you have questions about how this applies to you and your ability to use sub-contractors, please reach out to your own advisors.

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Lena,

Since one response on this question seemed to suggest that freelancers make payments on a contract to which they are not a party, I do not believe your explanation(s) can be said to be uniformly clear.

Moderators have invoked the operations of agencies several times in this discussion. Is Upwork now saying that any freelancer may operate as an agency, without being registered as one?

[Wendy C]

Lena, we realize you are between a rock and a hard place trying to answer highly legal questions.  Perhaps Upwork's legal representative - i.e., an attorney representing U in the writing and coverage of the ToS - join the conversation and supply the actual legal answers.

There are enough lawyers and paralegals writers on U (I can think of a few highly articulate ones) who can converse with U's attorney to put all this to rest ... and in clear, understandable language.

[Reinier B]

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@Wendy C wrote:

Lena, we realize you are between a rock and a hard place trying to answer highly legal questions.  Perhaps Upwork's legal representative - i.e., an attorney representing U in the writing and coverage of the ToS - join the conversation and supply the actual legal answers.

There are enough lawyers and paralegals writers on U (I can think of a few highly articulate ones) who can converse with U's attorney to put all this to rest ... and in clear, understandable language.

@Wendy, this reminds me of a question I'd asked previously; were these updates to the ToS and User Agreement written by actual, licensed attorneys who have English as their native language?

The excruciating verbosity and many instances of unclear phrasing used in parts of these documents suggest otherwise.  

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[Pat M]

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@Reinier B wrote:

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@Wendy C wrote:

Lena, we realize you are between a rock and a hard place trying to answer highly legal questions.  Perhaps Upwork's legal representative - i.e., an attorney representing U in the writing and coverage of the ToS - join the conversation and supply the actual legal answers.

There are enough lawyers and paralegals writers on U (I can think of a few highly articulate ones) who can converse with U's attorney to put all this to rest ... and in clear, understandable language.

@Wendy, this reminds me of a question I'd asked previously; were these updates to the ToS and User Agreement written by actual, licensed attorneys who have English as their native language?

The excruciating verbosity and many instances of unclear phrasing used in parts of these documents suggest otherwise. 

_____________________________________________________________________Reinier, please correct me if I'm wrong; but you never received an answer to your question did you?  Perhaps you did in a PM. 

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[Reinier B]

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@Pat M wrote:

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@Reinier B wrote:

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@Wendy C wrote:

Lena, we realize you are between a rock and a hard place trying to answer highly legal questions.  Perhaps Upwork's legal representative - i.e., an attorney representing U in the writing and coverage of the ToS - join the conversation and supply the actual legal answers.

There are enough lawyers and paralegals writers on U (I can think of a few highly articulate ones) who can converse with U's attorney to put all this to rest ... and in clear, understandable language.

@Wendy, this reminds me of a question I'd asked previously; were these updates to the ToS and User Agreement written by actual, licensed attorneys who have English as their native language?

The excruciating verbosity and many instances of unclear phrasing used in parts of these documents suggest otherwise. 

_____________________________________________________________________Reinier, please correct me if I'm wrong; but you never received an answer to your question did you?  Perhaps you did in a PM. 

 Hi Pat,

No need to correct you. I'm still waiting for an answer though a PM or otherwise. I'm fairly certain I won't receive an answer to my follow-up question, either. 

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[Pat M]

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@Wendy C wrote:

Lena, we realize you are between a rock and a hard place trying to answer highly legal questions.  Perhaps Upwork's legal representative - i.e., an attorney representing U in the writing and covera!ge of the ToS - join the conversation and supply the actual legal answers.

There are enough lawyers and paralegals writers on U (I can think of a few highly articulate ones) who can converse with U's attorney to put all this to rest ... and in clear, understandable language.

__________________________________________________________________________

Yes!  Yes!  This!!!

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