Jul 2, 2022 04:48:16 PM by Ali K
Noting that this freelancer was suggested to me by ( Upwork Team ) !!!
Jul 2, 2022 05:08:17 PM Edited Jul 3, 2022 01:05:04 AM by Preston H
It sounds as though you used a fixed-price contract for a project with a tight, important deadline.
You should have used an hourly contract.
You could have hired 5 freelancers using hourly contracts, and told them that it was a group project, and the project will be done when the work is done.
Then after one of them submitted usable work, you could have closed all of the contracts.
That way you would have only paid money to freelancers who worked on the task.
If only one freelancer did the work within 2 hours after you hired everybody, and none of the other freelancers worked on it yet, and it took that freelancer 30 minutes, and their rate is $50/hour, then you would have paid $25 in total.
The problem with fixed-price contracts is that such a contract ties up money in escrow.
And you can't get the money back simply by clicking a button.
And you can't simply claim that the project wasn't submitted in time. That doesn't trigger a release of funds back to you.
How do you get the money back?
You ask the freelancer for a refund.
A freelancer who is 100% honorable WILL IMMEDIATELY GIVE YOU A REFUND if he hasn't done any work on the project.
But... What if you hired a freelancer who is NOT 100% honorable?
What if the freelancer does not WANT to give you a refund?
You can see the problem.
Jul 2, 2022 05:14:30 PM Edited Jul 2, 2022 05:15:35 PM by Preston H
Ali K: I know that you are disappointed by what happened here.
But you did not use what I regard as "best practices."
Hiring a single freelancer you never worked with before DOES NOT GUARANTEE that the work will be done on time, even if the freelancer was suggested by the Upwork Team.
THERE IS NO RULE or policy that says you will get your money back.
You need to ASK for a refund. It is NOT guaranteed. It is up to the freelancer to say yes or no to that request.
Ultimately, if you and the freelancer can't resolve your differences about this $200, the matter goes to mediation.
What does mediation mean? It means that Upwork tells you to work things out with the freelancer.
If the two of you can't work things out, then you BOTH need to pay $291 to go to arbitration. That fee is NOT refundable. So if you can't work things out with the freelancer, it means that you will have an opportunity to pay $291 in order to receive a maximum payout of $200.
That's how the system works.
That's why I use hourly contracts in situations like this.
(As a client, I have hired 178 freelacners. I always get time-sensitive work done on time, because I know the effective techniques for doing so.)
Jul 2, 2022 05:39:04 PM Edited Jul 2, 2022 05:52:10 PM by Ali K
So basically you are telling us that Upwork team is supporting Fake Freelancer who steel clients' money without doing any thing to those freelancers except blaming the clients of why they didn't hire them as hourly rate ?!
This is a BIg Shame that shakes the Upwork clients' trust, although it supposed to be the most professional multi-billion worth hiring platform.
Literally, by this attitude, Upwork is Supporting Fake Freelancers by RECOMENDING them to clients + do NOTHING about their crimes + above all, KEEPING their accounts ACTIVE for next roberies from the innocent clients!
Jul 2, 2022 05:46:40 PM Edited Jul 2, 2022 08:09:46 PM by Preston H
Ali:
I use Upwork pretty extensively as a client.
I have no interest in "Upwork recommended freelancers."
I think this is a GOOD IDEA... in theory.
I have no real firsthand experience with the program. But the things I have read about that program, from clients who have posted here in the Forum, have led me to have no interest in utilizing that program.
I love hiring freelancers on Upwork. I know how to hire effectively in order to obtain my goals. But for a new client? There are lots of potential pitfalls.
You used the phrase "fake freelancers" a lot in your latest post.
I don't think that you experienced a "fake freelancer."
I think that you hired a freelancer to do something by a certain deadline, and he didn't do it.
I don't expect all hires to work out.
That's why I hire MULTIPLE freelancers if I have a tight deadline.
A couple weeks ago I hired 10 freelancers to create a single illustration, because I wanted it done quickly.
Five turned in work. Five did not.
The five who worked got paid. The five who didn't work did not get paid.
It's not that complicated.
But I don't think that the five freelancers who didn't do any work are "fake freelancers."
I don't think about them at all one way or another. I don't need to think about them. I didn't pay them any money. And I got the project done even though they did nothing.
Jul 2, 2022 06:13:57 PM by Viacheslav K
A hourly contract would be even worse, because it's almost impossible to get money back if everything is tracked correctly.
Jul 2, 2022 08:13:10 PM Edited Jul 3, 2022 12:31:46 AM by Preston H
re: "An hourly contract would be even worse, because it's almost impossible to get money back if everything is tracked correctly."
A client should never plan to get money back from an hourly contract.
But why would it be worse to hire a freelancer using an hourly contract if there is a tight deadline?
If a client hires a freelancer to do some work for him by Friday, and then Friday comes around and the freelancer hasn't done any work, then the client pays zero. (IF the client used an hourly contract.)
The original poster paid $200 and didn't receive anything. Paying zero for nothing is better than paying $200 for nothing.
Jul 2, 2022 11:22:01 PM Edited Jul 2, 2022 11:23:31 PM by Ali K
Viacheslav, don't bother yourself by replying Preston, thus, by quick googling, you will find that he is always attacking & blaming clients to defend Upwork policies, and then claiming he is not one of Upwork team!
He is doing this Job for many years, thinking Upwork clients are stupid to believe him.
Jul 3, 2022 12:24:40 AM Edited Jul 3, 2022 12:29:44 AM by Preston H
re: "always attacking & blaming clients to defend Upwork policies, and then claiming he is not one of Upwork team!
Yes, I hope people will search for my posts in response to client questions in the Forum. People who actually do so will be able to see that I have been a consistent supporter of and advisor to clients.
Anybody familiar with my posts is also aware of the fact that I am a frequest critic of Upwork and advocate for improvements that will help clients have a better experience while using the site.
Read my actual posts.
Many Upwork clients save time and money, and achieve succes with their projects, by following the best practices that I advocate. It doesn't matter if clients learned about these best practices and effective strategies from me personally, or from other Forum participants or from Upwork Help page or Upwork moderators.
Best practices and effective strategies that work don't "belong" to me or any individual Forum participant. They belong to every Upwork user.
And obviously I don't work for Upwork, but I am a frequent Upwork user (both as a client and freelancer).
Jul 2, 2022 11:32:25 PM by Pradeep H
Hi Ali,
Thank you for your message. I am sorry to hear about your experience with a freelancer. I'll have one of our customer support agents reach out to you directly to assist you further.
Thank you,
Pradeep
Jul 3, 2022 12:35:47 AM Edited Jul 3, 2022 12:38:52 AM by Preston H
re: "I'll have one of our customer support agents reach out to you directly to assist you further."
I really do hope that Upwork will be able the original poster feel better about things and achieve his goals.
It is kind of the Forum moderator to offer assistance on Upwork's behalf.
I have hired 178 freelancers on Upwork. With my understanding of the Upwork client-side user interface and effective hiring strategies, I never need to talk to Upwork Customer Support about my projects or the freelancers I hire. I am able to handle everything on my own, without frustration, without waiting.
Clients essentially have "all the power," and don't need help from Customer Support.
This is not "secret" information. The ways to use the Upwork client-side user interface effectively to achieve all of a client's goals directly... This information is available in the Forum. And if a client can't find the information he is looking for, he can post a question and regular Forum participants will quickly provide help and information.
Jul 2, 2022 11:59:17 PM by Nicolas N
Hello, sorry to hear that you had a bad experience,
but honestly how do you know that this freelancer has stolen your money?
You say that the freelancer has failed to meet your deadline and that you have tried to reach them for three days.
You can only assume that they have stolen your money, maybe the freelancer has COVID, Monkeypox, or he/she or a family member has been in some kind of accident ??
I do not know this freelancer, only have what you have posted, to go by.
You say that the freelancer is Top rated 96% succes score and has earned +70K = Over seventy thousand dollasrs earned.
I'm finding it hard to beleive that this freelancer has achieved this by stealing clients money.
Pretty sure that if this freelancer had this kind of past record, she/he would have been kicked off the site already!
But who knows, this is exactly what I'm getting at, we can only assume this happened.
Maybe you should have reached out to Upwork support about this matter, and after things have been investigated,
then post facts and not assumptions.
I'm an honest freelancer with an excellent reputation here on Upwork, and I'm sure there are more like me, trying to make an honest living, and I feel that your assumption is giving us all a bad rep.
Once again, sorry to hear that this happened to you, but where are your facts ???????
Jul 3, 2022 03:11:42 AM by Ali K
It's easy to understand why you are defending such freelancer, and doubting my story.
( Facts, terms, conditions, milestones dates & amounts ) are all described inside the message room & Upwork team have already saw them.
I can share & show them for any client, even the first message which was from the ( Upwork Special Tlaent ) who suggest this fake freelancer.
Jul 3, 2022 05:06:53 AM Edited Jul 3, 2022 05:15:59 AM by Renata S
Hi Ali,
I'm sorry to hear about your stressful situation.
From what you're describing, it seems as if you are new to Upwork and haven't hired on the platform before. The thing that shakes my faith is that the Upwork Special Talent agent didn't take any time to explain the escrow system to you. I'm very surprised if this is the case. It's certainly not best practice for Upwork if they don't take time to do this for new clients.
Did you ask any questions about how the systems works before you hired? You can certainly avoid bad experiences if you know how to use the system properly.
Jul 3, 2022 10:32:56 AM by Nicolas N
No one is defending anyone here.
It just might be a little too early to be jumping to conclusions and destroying reputations, before you have actual facts. It might be good to take a breath and see what the freelancer and Upwork have to say and see if a solution is attainable.
Once again sorry to hear that this unfortunate event has happened to you !
Jul 3, 2022 12:40:40 AM Edited Jul 3, 2022 12:41:22 AM by Radia L
Ali K wrote:took my down payment (200 USD), based on the agreement to submit his drafting on Friday
Did you approve/release the $200 escrowed "down payment" based on an "agreement"?
I read the entire thread but I think didn't see an explanation on this.
Jul 3, 2022 12:52:47 AM Edited Jul 3, 2022 01:14:19 AM by Preston H
Setting aside the original poster's actual situation, about which we do not have a full set of details, we can post some "best practices" for any client who reads this thread:
Should clients pay an "upfront payment" or "down payment" to a freelancer on Upwork?
No.
It is NOT Upwork's intention that freelancers ever do that.
This means: Clients should not set up a milestone and then release payment before the freelancer actually does any work for them and gives the client that work.
Are there freelancers who ask for "upfront payments"? A small percentage of Upwork freelancers ask for that. The overwhelming majority of freelancers who ask for such are scammers. But there ARE some honest freelancers who also ask for such.
However: Regardless of whether or not it is an honest freelancer or scammer who asks for an upfront payment, it is NOT Upwork's intention that a client ever get that money back. Ever. Under any circumstances. A client who pays an upfront payment needs to understand that it is Upwork's intention that the freelancer keep that money forever, even if the freelancer never does anything else for the client. When a client clicks the button to release a fixed-price payment to a freelancer, what the client is telling Upwork is this: "I have RECEIVED the work. I have REVIEWED the work. I am in possession of the work. This milestone is FINISHED. And regardless of what the freelancer does in the future, this work is over and the freelancer should keep THIS money forever."
That is what clicking that button means. So if a client releases an escrow payment and then asks for that money back, that client is going back on their word.
(This is a GENERAL statement. I don't know if the original poster did anything along these lines. I don't know exactly what the original poster did, and these general observations and recommendations are not specifically about the original poster's own situation.)
Keep in mind that funding an escrow payment is the standard way that Upwork clients use the fixed-contract model. Funding an escrow payment is NOT the same thing as "releasing an upfront payment" or "paying a down payment."
EITHER WAY:
The fixed-price contract model is more complex and more risky for BOTH clients and freelancers. If Upwork clients want to use the SIMPLEST way to hire and pay freelancers, they need to use hourly contracts.
An important lesson from this and many other threads:
Refund thinking hurts clients.
Rather than engaging in "refund thinking" (which is a risky gamble), clients can save time and money by proactively deciding to never try to get money from freelancers, no matter what.
When clients decide that they will never try to get money from freelancers using techniques such as "refunds", "desputes" and "arbitration," it helps clients to focus their efforts in safer ways. For example, rather than paying an underperforming freelancer a bunch of money, and later asking for that money back... An effective client monitors a freelancer's work closely, especially early on. And if a freelancer is not providing work that a client loves, the client STOPS PAYING the freelancer. Then the client doesn't need to try to get that money back from the freelancer. Because the client never paid a bunch of money to the freelancer in the first place.
If, on occasion, some clients have managed to get some money back from underperforming freelancers using techniques such as refund requests... Then they should be congratulated. More power to them. But it is rare that clients pay money to freelancers and then get that money back. Upwork doesn't earn its commission when that happens, and that is NOT how Upwork has designed its systems. Money is intended to flow one way: From clients to freelancers. So if YOU are a client reading this, don't assume that you can pay money to a freelancer and then get that money back. Even if you feel disappointed by the end result. Even if the freelancer does nothing at all. If you are thinking about refunds before you start hiring freelancers, then you are taking a risk.
Jul 3, 2022 01:44:10 AM by Nichola L
Radia L wrote:
Ali K wrote:took my down payment (200 USD), based on the agreement to submit his drafting on FridayDid you approve/release the $200 escrowed "down payment" based on an "agreement"?
I read the entire thread but I think didn't see an explanation on this.
__________________________________________
I agree. If the OP funded a milestone for the down payment, then he can dispute it and ask for a refund. If the freelancer does not respond to this request at all, then the money will be returned to the OP. If the OP goes this route, it would be better not to close the contract, until the problem is resolved.
Jul 3, 2022 10:24:03 AM by Nichola L
Then you can file a dispute. You must follow everthing customer services tell you to do. But the Upwork mediator will try and get you to come to some sort of agreement. It's not a short process, so you will have to be patient. I think you need to read all the help pages for new clients.
Jul 3, 2022 02:32:08 AM by Ali K
Yes I released the 200 as down payment, and didn't get any Job done, neither reply to my messages.
Jul 3, 2022 03:44:40 AM Edited Jul 3, 2022 03:48:53 AM by Radia L
Even after you fund (pay) the milestone, the freelancer still can't get the money. They need to get your approval first.
Did you just fund, or did you actually release the milestone?
Jul 3, 2022 01:51:20 AM by Nichola L
Ali,
Whatever the circumstances (and as someone has already suggested, something may have happened to the freelancer - we are all human!), you can ask for a refund, and if necessary, dispute the amount you paid, provided you paid it through Upwork and funded the money into escrow. If your freelancer's deadline was July 1, and you posted here yesterday, July 2, you must have started asking for the work, a little before the work was due.
Jul 3, 2022 03:23:20 AM by Maria T
Ali K wrote:A ( Top Rated ) freelancer with total earning of (+70K) & Job success of (96%) took my down payment (200 USD), based on the agreement to submit his drafting on Friday (1/7/2022), however he didn’t submit his drafting, neither replying my messages, nor updating me with anything for the past 3 days!I’ve requested him -through my message- to refund the down payment, however he is not responding!!Noting that this freelancer was suggested to me by ( Upwork Team ) !!!
If I understand correctly, you released a milestone "before" receiving the job.
If so, this is the problem. Milestones are set up so that both you and the freelancer are "protected" (the quotes are because we see that this is not always true)
You create the milestone, the freelancer works and sends you the work for your approval and if there are no corrections, you release the payment. And so on until the job is done.
You do not pay in advance for a job that you do not know if it will be delivered to you, unless you already know the freelancer from other jobs and you trust them.
And by the way, a refund requested in chat has no value. You must request it officially. If the freelancer doesn't answer in X days (I don't know the exact figure), the money is automatically refunded.