A "how-to" in finding terrible talent

[jeremiah-brown]

Clients,

Here is a great example in how to find terrible talent for your project.

Obviously, many details of this job posting are not included to prevent censorship from Upwork.

The client has a laundry list of very specific requirements and qualifications.  In addition, the client also requires the freelancer to be present for work during a full 8-hour period, based on the clients time zone (overseas).

To compensate a freelancer for all of these very specific skills, certifications, experience, and qualifications, the client is willing to provide a whopping (sarcasm) $1500 monthly compensation.  

Sure, the client can pay whatever they wish.  However, if you require someone to be present for full time hours, I would suggest paying them a full time rate - not minimum wage.  

I predict this client will be in here upset about the quality of work they received at some point.

[ericaandrews · Accepted solution]

Not necessarily.  The client is probably hoping to attract freelancers who actually LIVE in the CET timezone or nearby timezones, which includes LOTS of countries throughout  Europe, the Middle East, Africa, and parts of Asia/Eurasia, where $1500/month might actually be considered good money.  That does not mean that the talent is those countries is 'bad' or 'terrible' or that the client is 'cheap'.  Just because $1500/month might be considered 'minimum wage' in some countries, doesn't mean the same holds true in every country. Depending on where the client is, $1500/month might be considered spending a 'good amount' of money for talent and might be considered a 'full-time' rate in THAT location, not necessarily in yours.  Cost of living is relative by location. The client seems to have spent lots of money and has over 100+ good reviews, so the intended audience for these particular job posts seems happy.

[jeremiah-brown]

No, its below minimum wage for that respective country.  I researched it prior to posting.

Again, as I posted - people are free to pay what they wish.  

This is just my opinion of how clients end up coming here and complaining that they were scammed by freelancers.  You don't have to agree with it.

[ericaandrews]

• He asked for people able to work in that TIME ZONE, not that particular country. That Timezone includes many countries, and for you to assume all people that live and work in those countries must be "terrible" talent simply because that wage might seem FAIR to them, even if it it doesn't to you, suggests that you don't understand Upwork is a GLOBAL platform and all jobs are not posted with wages that meet YOUR standards. However, to declare all freelancers, regardless of location, "terrible" simply  because they agree to work for that wage is beyond judgemental....not of the client, but of TALENT in other parts of the world. That Timezone  includes MANY countries, and not just the client's country, and for you to make the assumption that all freelancers in that area of the world are "terrible" or of "lesser" quality than you is disrespectful. Sorry. It just it....disrespectful. If a client has spent almost half a million dollars on UW, that's a good indication the freelancers they are finding aren't "terrible", otherwise, they would have stopped hiring on UW many thousands of dollars ago. If the job is not a match for you, great, but insulting the skill level of all freelancers in that Timezone  by assuming they are "terrible" talent is unnecessary 

[jeremiah-brown]

 I know what it says.  I think you're stretching the post into something that it's not.  

[deborah-ponzio]

The CET time zone includes the following countries:  Albania, Andorra, Austria, Belgium, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatia Czech Republic,Denmark (mainland), France, Germany, Gibraltar, Holy See/Vatican City, Hungary, Italy, Kosovo, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Macedonia, Republic of Malta, Monaco, Montenegro, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, San Marino, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain - except Canary Islands, which are on WET/WEST, Sweden, Switzerland.

Lifestyles and salaries can vary greatly between Monaco-Montecarlo, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Germany and Albania.

While I believe that the average salary per each country can be a good indicator, however, I am not sure that the $1500 figure would be an accurate average for the CET zone, and that should be balanced with the value that the tasks required actually have for the client, plus the market value of all the certifications and skills required. 

[williamtcooper]

Hey Jeremiah, there are hundreds of jobs posted every week that don't make economic sense. Ignore them and go to the next. Have a great day!

[df602768]

$1500 per month for a VA job is solid money. And this is coming from me, who I've worked as a VA before. Good VA salaries per month range between $800 to $1500-$1700.

I understand that this money is low if you live in the US or Western Europe. On the other hand, you're not a surgeon. So, what do you expect? $1500 is great, if you live in Eastern Europe, as well as Spain, Italy (for a home-based job), and Greece. The salary is even better if you're based in Africa, the Philippines, or Latin America.

[jeremiah-brown]

Sorry, I'm not familiar with what a VA is.

[deborah-ponzio]

Please remove Italy from your list of supposedly "cheap" European countries where you  believe that $1500 per month for a full time job as VA is an acceptable salary. It was about $2000 in Northern Italy about 25 years ago. I am based in Italy and believe that accurate information on such topics can only come from locals who live on their own and pay their own bills. We have high taxation here. Also, the salary does not become cheaper if you work from home here but, on the contrary, it is higher as it attracts higher utility bills that have to be compensated. Also, you are not calculating the costs of currency exchange from $ into Euro in your estimations. 

[deborah-ponzio]

I suspect that this job post suggests something that is not possible on Upwork: combining fixed price with an hourly-based commitment.

As per my understanding, in Upwork either you choose 1) a fixed price contract, which focuses on the deliverables (and the actual hours spent and time-zone are none of the client's business); 2) an hourly contract based on the actual work time of the freelancer.

Please correct me if I'm wrong or if I missed any nuances. 

[25005175]

I think the contract is $1500 over 4 weeks at 40 hours/week, so an hourly contract paying $9.375/hr. Since the client can setup a contract with a 0 hours/week limit and a weekly salary, this is completely possible.

[deborah-ponzio]

Thank you, that wasn't clear to me

[prestonhunter]

There are plenty of people in countries with high levels of taxation and higher living expenses who are willing to work for lower hourly rates than some of their neighbors might assume.

"Francine" lives in such a country. Through the government she has great health insurance benefits. She works 30 hours per week for a client who pays her less than the official minimum wage in her city. But she is doing a job she loves. In her spare time, she does essentially the same type of work, as a hobby, but she does it for free, for fun. Her husband's job pays well, and she isn't particularly interested in only working at jobs that maximize her pay. She would rather not work, or do work that she enjoys.

"Carl" is another Upwork freelancer whose situation is similar to Francine's, but he lives in another country. There are many others like Carl and Francine.

And there are also people like "Cynthia," whose family is very wealthy. She lives off a trust fund and helps run her family's charitable foundations. She will never need to work in order to pay for her expensive lifestyle. But she enjoys challenging herself intellectually. She charges over $120/hour to work as a project manager on Upwork, working about 20 hours per week. She could easily charge less, but she enjoys the challenge of working for demanding, high-paying jobs. Even though she doesn't need the money.

These particular examples may be fictional, but they represent some of the endless variety of real freelancers' situations around the world, and help to illustrate the futility of applying a few numbers or tables listing minimum wages or cost of living to everyone worldwide.

[25005175]

Preston, I think you hit the wrong "Reply" button. 

[prestonhunter]

re: "Preston, I think you hit the wrong 'Reply' button."

I'm flexible.

[25005175]

LOL

[deborah-ponzio]

I agree with you, there aren't set standards as the job post that we are discussing suggests. 

In my comments I was clearly referring to financially independent freelancers who live on their own and pay their own bills. Then there are many other people who live in somebody else's house, do not pay bills and can afford to partially finance their clients by applying lower rates.