An account got suspended without any explanation

[4f6d5b0b]

Hey guys,

My to-be contractor I am have been working days on the project specification got into a trouble with his account. I am helping this because I have a very bad experience with the customer support being not specific and sending out only some of the templated messages.

Now this affects also my project as we have spent a reasonable time analysing the problem and made a very good progress in the mutual understanding.

Any idea how to proceed in such case? 

Thanks, 

Karel

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**edited for Community Guidelines**

[holymell]

Sounds like a serious violation. Sometimes they let contractors finish their jobs, but it doesn't sound like you hired this one yet, so I doubt anything can be done.

He knows what he did. He's just not telling you, also. There's no way to get suspended for a serious violation and not know why. Probably tried to take payment off the platform or had two accounts.

[4f6d5b0b]

Thank you for a constructive answer, Melissa.

[iamchunchunchun]

Chances are that the freelancer didn't tell you the whole story. Find another freelancer.

[petra_r]

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@Karel J wrote:

My to-be contractor I am have been working days on the project specification got into a trouble with his account. I

Any idea how to proceed in such case?

---

 Your "to be" freelancer? You had someone "work for days" without a contract?

The way "to proceed" is to hire someone else as the person you had working for free and without a contract (which is a policy violation) has been banned and is no longer available. He and his account are also not your concern.

[4f6d5b0b]

I’m sorry but your answer is rather rude and based on nothing but assumptions.

I haven’t had anyone working for me for free, neither paid. Who’s else concern it is when I have spent time with the freelancer working on the scope based on various constrains and now he is removed from the list?

It is incredibly rude to blame someone using someone else if you don’t have any information to base this judgement on.

If you’re judging what is my concern and what is not, you should better start thinking about what is appropriate for you to judge, Petra, because these things are clearly not your concern.

[holymell]

Well, technically even if you spent an hour consulting and planning with that freelancer, they should have been paid for that. I charge for consulting because it's part of the job. I'll spend maybe fifteen minutes consulting. Any more than that and I could be making money elsewhere.

It sounds like you put a lot of time into plotting your project with your freelancer. And I can see how you would think that this should be a free service, but really you're taking that freelancer's time. For example, if I spent an hour talking about a project, that's $35 I could have made elsewhere.

Consulting is work it is not pre-work. A few minutes to get the general idea of the project isn't a problem, and if that's all you did, you're fine. But if you spent hours and days talking it over, that freelancer was being incredible patient.

Most contractors do charge for consultations. So while Perta's reply may have seemed abrasive to you, she's right.

It's okay. You know for the next time now. We all make mistakes when we're new to this. Learning to respect the time of your contractors is important. You'll get there.

[4f6d5b0b]

Melissa, I have spent more than 60k USD on both Elance and UpWork, how have you figured out I am new to this? Even though I like the explanatory part of your message, the patronizing end of it kind of ruins it. 

Doesn't that depend on what kind of the project do you deliver? How about a complexity? Try to look at it also from the other side - that usually helps.

In a business world you sell your capabilities and what you can deliver to the customer, not your time to understand the problem. If you need a time to understand the problem to provide a quotation, it is your time, your problem and your investment. If you don't want to do that, that's fine as it is your time to decide how to spend it. Fyi, it was the developer's decision to spend more time at this stage, not mine. So that's for you guys judging me.

I can't quite understand how you can say Petra is right with a reply that basically does not even try to resolve the issue raised in this thread, but instead being offensive without a slightest insight (and reason). There are million ways how to express your opinion, but the an agressive, arrogant way is one of the least successful to get the message through (even if there is any). Do you think it creates an open and friendly environment on this forum when you guys are trying to put people down based on your assumptions? Please correct me, however I think I did not write anything offensive, arrogant - just asked a valid question.

Last but not least - are you, or do you know any of my contractors to have a right to say that I do need to learn to respect their time? 

[cupidmedia]

Regardless of whether or not you want to listen to Petra and Melissa's advice or not, the fact is, you can't work with this freelancer on Upwork. The freelancer can contact support if they need help sorting out their account, but support won't tell you details of someone else's account suspension. There is certainly an explanation - just because no one has told you what it is that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Unfortunately the only solution is to hire another freelancer.

[kat303]

Isn't it something, when either a freelancer or client posts something and instead of listening to constructive advice, they get all rallied up and start complaining that the answers/advice they got was arrogant and rude?

If you didn't get so ...... And read Petra's advice, you'll see she answered your op.You asked how to proceed with this problem/freelancer. Her response. Absolutely nothing arrogant and rude about that. I strongly suggest to take her advice.

The way "to proceed" is to hire someone else as the person you had working for free and without a contract (which is a policy violation) has been banned and is no longer available. He and his account are also not your concern.

[4f6d5b0b]

Sorry to say, Kathy, however this is just a useless, bitter and close-minded social bubble. Instead of helping, you guys are trying to make from other people idiots. If that's what brings joy to your life ...  The problem is when you can't understand there might be a complexity difference in a Word job and complex system development that will take several months. 

Cheers, never coming back for any sort of help. I will be happier, and you will probably be as well. 

[cupidmedia]

People *have* tried to help you. We've (repeatedly) told you that you can't work with this freelancer on Upwork, that Upwork won't tell you the reason someone else's account was suspended, and that the solution is to work with another freelancer.

Regardless of whether or not you or your freelancer or anyone else believes that it's perfectly fine to work with that freelancer for several days for free (which is what you explicitly said you'd been doing in your first post, and is not an assumption), those are the facts. That is how you proceed. You work with another freelancer.

[4f6d5b0b]

You might want to know that my original message has been edited and substantial part saying that it was actually the freelancer who asked me to post this, is gone. There was also his message that he wanted me to post here. I would understand if the name was removed, but to remove the whole thing makes absolutely no sense. 

And btw, if the answer was just "There's nothing much you can do", I'd be fine with that. No insults, judgements, just a statement. 

[cupidmedia]

If your freelancer has a problem with their account, they need to contact support. There is nothing you can do for someone else's account. Which makes perfect sense. Which is why your freelancer's message was removed - you can't post on behalf of someone else (especially if they've been removed for a policy violation - their access to the forums is restricted for a reason!).

And no on has insulted you, although yes people have judged you. Please try to see this from their point of view: these are freelancers who earn their livelihood on this platform, who have almost certainly encountered clients who tried to trick or scam them into working for free, and who understand that asking for free work is a violation of the Upwork Terms of Use. Now you come in here, talking about how a freelancer has been working with you for days with no contract and no payment. Of course they are going to tell you this is a policy violation, because on the face of it, it is. You got offended at Petra's response to you, but it was factually correct based on the information you yourself provided.

Your argument that a large complex project is beyond their understanding and completely different is also pretty weak, to be honest. If anything, that means it's MORE likely that you should have been paying this freelancer for their time helping you work out your scope.

In any case, if you *asked* this freelancer to do any work for free, regardless of your opinion of whether or not that is okay, it's NOT okay according to Upwork. If they voluntarily offered to do this for free, that's their business, but this kind of interaction is always very grey and often ends up with a freelancer coming to the forum and complaining that they got taken advantage of by a client.

Anyway, the point of Petra's (and Melissa's, and everyone else's) replies to you still stands: work with another freelancer.

[4f6d5b0b]

And do you think it is fair to judge someone unrelated based on your own bad experience?

I did not ask anyone to do any work for me for free. And I certainly did not violate any rules. Noone also said it took several days of his 100% dedicated time. It took several days to get a quotation / estimate. Not a real value for me, no work deliver as a result. Would you start a couple of months long project before getting a proper quotation / breakdown? Probably not.

Wouldn’t a better way be to first ask than to judge? I think my original post has been polite enough with a clear intention to help the freelancer (and also myself, as I have also spent time answering his questions) but yet you guys made a bad guy from me rigt away. And yes, basically calling me a scammer (or at least a person who uses others to work for free), is an insult.

I get what you’re saying in the first paragraph, makes sense.

[cupidmedia]

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@Karel J wrote:
And do you think it is fair to judge someone unrelated based on your own bad experience?

I did not ask anyone to do any work for me for free. And I certainly did not violate any rules. Noone also said it took several days of his 100% dedicated time. It took several days to get a quotation / estimate. Not a real value for me, no work deliver as a result. Would you start a couple of months long project before getting a proper quotation / breakdown? Probably not.

Wouldn’t a better way be to first ask than to judge? I think my original post has been polite enough with a clear intention to help the freelancer (and also myself, as I have also spent time answering his questions) but yet you guys made a bad guy from me rigt away. And yes, basically calling me a scammer (or at least a person who uses others to work for free), is an insult.

I get what you’re saying in the first paragraph, makes sense.

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 No, I wouldn't. But if, hypothetically, I posted a job and a freelancer said "the job you're proposing is pretty complex. Let's set up a meeting to discuss your requirements further - I estimate you'll need to block out a couple of hours for this" - then I would pay that freelancer for their consulting time. Obviously, I don't know the details of your job, or what exactly the freelancer did for you, but if there was any substantial time investment on their part (more than, say, 15 minutes), I would pay them for it. The "real value" you're getting there is a clearer picture of your requirements, for both yourself and your potential freelancer (regardless of whether its this one or someone else you end up working with), which will save you time, money, and stress in the long run.

Argue all you want about how this freelancer's time investment brought no "value" to you, but I'm sorry, you're not going to get any support here for a freelancer doing any volume of consulting with you for free, *even if* it was the freelancer who said they would do it.

(In case you can't tell, I'm a client myself, not a freelancer.)

[4f6d5b0b]

The thing is I do not care whether you are a freelancer or a client - there is no difference as both are on the same boat. This is at least my understanding. 

I think this perception of "whatever the output is, people deserves to get paid" is not correct. If you are trying to get let's say 3-6 months long deal, in my eyes it is worth to spend more than 15 minutes to make the other confident that you care and more important - that you can actually deliver and understand the requirements. It is simply not possible to study and understand requirements of larger projects within 15 minutes. And again, I am talking only about a quotation, not the factual work on the deliverable. The another thing is I am unable to know how long time he has spent or is going to spent on an estimation - this is very individual and depends on the experience and the knowledge. In this particular case it was me pushing to get the basic numbers done and start the very next day, the freelancer wanted to elaborate.

I don't mind paying for a consultancy job (on the contrary, if it helps with the requirement specs as you have mentioned), however I am against paying for a black box (unknown amount of hours to be spent on a project and at the same time knowing nothing about the real skills/experience). 

Anyways, thank you for a constructive discussion, Jennifer. I appreaciate you took a time and tried to listen. 

[cupidmedia]

Sure, but I thought it was useful information so you knew I was coming at it from a slightly different perspective to some of the others posting in the thread.

I understand your point, but like I said it is very much a grey area. And specifically here on Upwork, any substantial time investment by a freelancer for whatever reason is generally agreed by the community as worth paying for. If the quotation involved the freelancer doing extensive reading of your documentation, or research, or meetings with you - and this work was something anyone who wanted to bid on your project would have to do, not just this specific freelancer - then either you're not providing enough information in your job post or you should really be posting a small job for the quotation work. (Please note that this is *Upwork-specific* advice.)

I hope you don't completely abandon this community Karel. In general, people *are* trying to help each other here - including Petra, who is not only a highly regarded freelancer but also contributes a large amount of her valuable time here for free to help Upwork users. Yes, we all might sometimes be a little "trigger happy" with our judgments, but I do believe that the driving force between most of the very active members here in the community is to help others get as much out of Upwork as they have themselves. I personally have found the community extremely valuable, and I've learnt a vast amount from the freelancers here, which has helped me become a better client and develop lasting, collaborative relationships with the freelancers I hire.

I hope you can find another freelancer to help you make your project a successful one.

[4f6d5b0b]

I get your point of the UpWork specifics, we all have certain perspective. My angle comes from the business world where it's perfectly normal that we (as a company) have to do a lot of pre-work to be able to provide the quotation - this includes research, business analysis, meetings, etc. Then, based on how much efforts we spend on that, we include this to the offer as part of the "premium". Of course, there is a risk we might not get the deal, but that's something I am willing to accept. I still believe that any relationship should be based on a mutual agreement - and there is no reason why it should not be the same in the freelancer world. Everyone has a right to dislike a condition or way of working. Unfortunately there are dishonest people on both sides, however we can't punish everyone for that - it would become a very sad and bitter experience.

I have the same long term approach you have mentioned - with several freelancers (irrespectively the platform) I work already for 4+ years. I think that demonstrates that we are mutually happy with the relationship we have built. 

[kat303]

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@Karel J wrote:

You might want to know that my original message has been edited and substantial part saying that it was actually the freelancer who asked me to post this, is gone. There was also his message that he wanted me to post here. I would understand if the name was removed, but to remove the whole thing makes absolutely no sense. 

And btw, if the answer was just "There's nothing much you can do", I'd be fine with that. No insults, judgements, just a statement. 

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Karel, out of 10 replies to your original post and your other posts 8 of them say, that there's nothing yoiu can do or to get another freelancer. What more do you want?

As for the other replies, about not paying for talking, for DAYS with this freelancer, well, I don't know what country you are from, but if you're from the U.S. then just try going to a doctor or dentist for a consulation on the work or procedures they would do for your problem and NOT paying them for that. And those consultations don't take days. They take an hour or less. Also if any appliance in your house breaks, try calling a repair tech and see if you can get one that will come over and not bill you for a Service Charge.

The professional freelancers here are here to make a living. They don't get paid for sick days, or holidays, They don't get pensions, and they don't get any medical insurance. When something breaks, or supplies need to be purchased they have to pay for that themselves.

We are not saying that a client needs to pay for a consulatation that takes 1/2 or less, but when it goes beyond that, (days) it defently needs to be paid for. That's advice. to you. The only rude person here, IMO is you by the way you are responding to our advice and suggestions.

So, to repeat what everyone else has told you. There's nothing you can do. It's time to find another freelancer. And consider yourself lucky, because to get your account suspended/terminated, the freelancer had to do something really bad. As good as you think they were, if you continued I'm sure you would have been pulled into whatever this freelancer did.

[AveryO]

I'm sorry I edited your post, Karel, without explanation. I accidentally closed your thread and was unable to trace it. Please know that we have set guidelines here in the Community, and we would like to request members of the Community to please follow these Community Guidelines. 

I checked your freelancer's profile and I can't share any details about the action our team has taken but can confirm a ToS violation was the reason the freelancer's account was addressed, and we won't permit a behaviour which was already sanctioned.

[4f6d5b0b]

No worries, Avery, that happens 🙂 Thanks for coming back to me anyway. Understood about the guidelines (I admit, I wasn't aware I'm posting something I should not) and the violation part, thanks for the explanation.