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Solange's avatar
Solange B Community Member

Beware clients: time tracker is over charging you... like crazy!

Ok... so this is what happened. I just started my first hourly contract on Upwork (I just migrated here from Elance) so it was my first time using the tracker.

 

Yesterday I could see that on the real time tracker (the top part) it showed 5 minutes but below (total time for the day) it already showed 20 minutes. And believe me, I was very aware I had started 5 minutes ago...

 

Today I started working and I had been working for 29 minutes, when it already showed 40. So I contacted customer support. Their answer is that it charges in 10 minutes blocks, which would make sense... but there is a trick.

 

If you start at 11:59... you would believe it will charge another 10 minutes at: 12:09... but it doesn't! It does not track 10 minutes blocks in real time. It takes 10 minutes blocks by the clock... but this I mean:

 

If you start at 11:59 it already charges you 10 minutes for the block corresponding to 11:50 to 12 PM. And if you click Stop at 12:01 it charges you another 10 minutes for the block corresponding to 12:00 to 12:10... so you end up paying for 20 minutes instead of 3.

 

Now imagine if that happens 3 times in a day, you are already paying 1 extra hour. Now what if some one does that (not necessarily on purpose) more than 3 times a day? Which is possible...

 

After a long discussion, this is customer service's conclusion (literal): "It shouldn't be a big different in the time."

 

For you!! Because you don't have to pay for it. Imagine what this means for freelancers with the highest hourly rates!!

 

Also multipy this for every freelancer in the platform, working around the globe, 24/7.... it's a lot of money!!! that goes to automatic payment!

 

Needless to say: I have never and I'll never over-charge a client, so I'll talk to him about not using the tracker... But this is crazy!!! I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry....

118 REPLIES 118
Jess's avatar
Jess C Community Member


@Rene K wrote:

I would also prefer a time tracker tracking by the minute. I'm not a big fan of the ten minutes window. I can live with it, but I don't like it.

 


I don't necessarily "like" it, either, but there's a logic to it and it can be used effectively. Sometimes that means inventing a little bit of busy work to round out a 10 minute segment, but for my off-platform clients I bill in half hour increments and no one says boo.

Isabelle Anne's avatar
Isabelle Anne A Community Member


Jess C wrote:

 

I don't necessarily "like" it, either, but there's a logic to it and it can be used effectively. Sometimes that means inventing a little bit of busy work to round out a 10 minute segment, but for my off-platform clients I bill in half hour increments and no one says boo.


See I'm not very comfortable with that. Others suggest starting the tracker at a specific time within a 10-minute period so that it gets the full activity, but when you're doing a rush job, there's not time for those silly workarounds. 

 

It would be great if someone who develops these kinds of tools can explain why (if) creating a tracker that tracks by the minute is so difficult.

 

The only reason I can think of why Upwork would want to stick to the 10-minute version is because this squeezes extra money from clients. Which is not really nice.

Jess's avatar
Jess C Community Member


@Isabelle Anne A wrote:

@Jess C wrote:

 

I don't necessarily "like" it, either, but there's a logic to it and it can be used effectively. Sometimes that means inventing a little bit of busy work to round out a 10 minute segment, but for my off-platform clients I bill in half hour increments and no one says boo.


See I'm not very comfortable with that. Others suggest starting the tracker at a specific time within a 10-minute period so that it gets the full activity, but when you're doing a rush job, there's not time for those silly workarounds. 

 

It would be great if someone who develops these kinds of tools can explain why (if) creating a tracker that tracks by the minute is so difficult.

 

The only reason I can think of why Upwork would want to stick to the 10-minute version is because this squeezes extra money from clients. Which is not really nice.


But then there are other times when I finish work a little after the "zero" and I don't bill for that segment. It washes out.

 

Those who are concerned about these small 10 minute increments here and there aren't looking at the big picture.

 

When you work in an office, and are paid by the hour, you get paid for bathroom breaks, for staring into space, for messing around on social media for a few minutes every once in awhile. A freelancer's hour, billed on this platform, is far more valuable than an employee's hour in an office. A little rounding up and down over the course of a longer project is expected and reasonable.

 

It is a pain in the butt to have to wait for the "zero" before starting the clock, absolutely, but this is how this platform works. Figure out how to fit your own work patterns into that, or work fixed price contracts instead of hourly.

Pandora's avatar
Pandora H Community Member

I've never had concerns about overcharging a client when using the time tracker, because I watch it like a hawk.

 

I also hate it with an incredible passion because a lot of my day is "100 little tasks". Which means a lot of updating the stupid time tracker, and waiting for it to catch up to me.

 

If anything, I end up under-billing my clients 5 minutes a week.

Jan's avatar
Jan H Community Member

Well that opened a hornet's nest...

 

So I have one guru telling me that it's my job to review my own time, all because the time tracker app can't log when I press start and stop. Can I bill Upwork a 10 minute block each time I have to do this please?

 

And still no-one has any explanation of why Upwork have chosen to work in 10 minute blocks when every other time tracker bills by the minute. It does not even out; it means employers are being overcharged for time. It also means it's very difficult to bill exactly an hour for a client without editing your work diary afterwards - frankly this just seems ridiculous for a system that prefers hourly billing over fixed contracts.

 

I'm only new here but mostly so far, I'm being asked to work in hourly blocks as I build up my profile. One solution given is to WAIT until on the hour or 10 minute intervals to start working. I can't believe this is being suggested as a viable fix. This isn't how freelancing works.

Tiffany's avatar
Tiffany S Community Member


@Jan H wrote:

 


And still no-one has any explanation of why Upwork have chosen to work in 10 minute blocks when every other time tracker bills by the minute.


 I don't know the answer to this, but I assume that it is because Upwork guarantees tracked time out of its own pocket if the tracker is used appropriately. I'm not aware of any other time tracker that does that. Preventing abuse of that system requires the screen shot monitoring that Upwork employs, but it obviously can't screenshot everyone's work every minute. Verifying in ten-minute increments makes it viable to demonstrate that those are active work segments, and the randomness of the timing makes it difficult (if not impossible) to game the system.

Jan's avatar
Jan H Community Member

The screenshot system is fine. It takes shots at random intervals and this is a perfect solution for the client to monitor the freelancer's work.

 

What doesn't make sense is why the time logged is tied to the screenshots and not the start and stop button on the time tracker app.

Tiffany's avatar
Tiffany S Community Member

I don't really understand the system you're proposing. If the screenshots are disconnected from the time tracking, they're pretty much irrelevant, aren't they? For example, if a screenshot is taken at 9:14 and the freelancer is playing a Facebook game in the screenshot, would you disqualify just that minute? Or the whole time period from the previous screen shot to the next one (which could be up to 27 minutes)?

John's avatar
John K Community Member

Jan H alluded to 'gurus', so in case there's a misconception, I'll clarify the 'guru' designation. It's given to any frequent freelancer or client contributor to the forum, and such they are not employed by Upwork (save rare exceptions such as an ex-Upwork employee) and in particular, they don't have special knowledge or insight about Upwork such as why time tracker records only 10 minute blocks. A moderator perhaps might have such information, since they work for Upwork.

__________________________________________________
"No good deed goes unpunished." -- Clare Boothe Luce
Jan's avatar
Jan H Community Member

No, the screenshots would not be irrelevant. They would still be recorded, but the actual start and end time from the time tracker would be used for the logged time instead of rounding to 10 minutes as per the screenshots. Then the time would be accurately recorded to the minute (like all other time trackers).

 

If as a client you see a screenshot with a facebook game, then you probably want to bring it up with the freelancer if it happens more than once, or if you feel you are not getting value for money.

Tiffany's avatar
Tiffany S Community Member


@Jan H wrote:

No, the screenshots would not be irrelevant. They would still be recorded, but the actual start and end time from the time tracker would be used for the logged time instead of rounding to 10 minutes as per the screenshots. Then the time would be accurately recorded to the minute (like all other time trackers).

 

If as a client you see a screenshot with a facebook game, then you probably want to bring it up with the freelancer if it happens more than once, or if you feel you are not getting value for money.


 But the issue isn't what you'd want to do as a client, is it? The time tracker/screenshots are the foundation of the Upwork payment protection system, in which Upwork pays the freelancer if the client fails or refuses to do so. 

 

So, my question stands--would Upwork disqualify one minute of work for a bad screen shot, or the whole up to 27 minute segment between good screenshot, or...how would you propose the screenshots be used to ensure that only actual work time was paid.

Jan's avatar
Jan H Community Member

Ok here's an example of a work diary:

 

Capture.PNG

Since I don't know the exact time I started let's guess, going by the activity bar that it was 11:38 am. I finished exactly 90 minutes later at 1:08pm (pressed stop on the time tracker when it said 1 hr 30 minutes).

 

What Upwork could do is take the minute that I started the time tracker and add that in at the beginning as an annotation (maybe under the time in small text). Then do the same at the end. They can subtract the first time from the last time and see that the client should be billed for 1:30. Instead the client in this case was billed for 1:40 which is completely incorrect, as we had agreed on 1.5 hours of work. As previously stated, this system just makes me look greedy, stupid or incompetent. Its pot luck trying to bill a client for exactly an hour and a half.

 

The largest gap I see in the screenshots is 17 minutes - do you mean this instead of 27? This change would not effect how a client reviews my work using the screenshots. It would just give a far more accurate summary of how much time was actually logged. By all means round up to the nearest 10 mins at the end of the work week, but not for every instance of time tracked.

Vladimir's avatar
Vladimir G Community Manager


@Jan H wrote:

 

 

What Upwork could do is take the minute that I started the time tracker and add that in at the beginning as an annotation (maybe under the time in small text). Then do the same at the end. They can subtract the first time from the last time and see that the client should be billed for 1:30. Instead the client in this case was billed for 1:40 which is completely incorrect, as we had agreed on 1.5 hours of work. As previously stated, this system just makes me look greedy, stupid or incompetent. Its pot luck trying to bill a client for exactly an hour and a half.


Hi Jan,

 

Please note that you can select and delete the first screenshot from your example, removing it from the Work Diary and not billing your client for it. Also, since the activity is really low, in case a clients initiates a dispute this segment wouldn't qualify for Hourly Payment Protection.

 

To avoid any confusion since clients are also strongly advised to review the Work Diary regularly, you can follow the steps many experienced freelancers working on Hourly jobs use and review and remove segments like the one you highlighted at the end of each session or the end of the day/week.

~ Vladimir
Upwork
Jan's avatar
Jan H Community Member

Yup I understand that you want the clients and freelancers to do all the manual editing of the time logging because your own time tracker app is incapable of doing it itself. This is what we are all complaining about, and we still don't have any explanation as to the reason it's been built this way, unlike all other time trackers.

 

1. We are expected to manually edit/ review our work diary if we feel there is an error due to the time tracker app. This costs us time and money, unless we bill it to the client which is not really fair to them.

 

2. Even if we have finished working, we have to wait for a screenshot to be taken (and obviously we can't do something else as the screenshot can't be of someone else's work or a playing a game so we sit there twiddling our thumbs for minutes while the activity bar shows we are not doing anything which also looks bad).

 

3. It's advised, admittedly not by Upwork, but by contributors, that we only start time tracking at 10 minute intervals of time, which is not desirable.

 

There are so many problems with how this is setup and as yet, I've not seen any compelling reason why it works this way instead.

Tiffany's avatar
Tiffany S Community Member


@Jan H wrote:

Ok here's an example of a work diary:

 

Capture.PNG

Since I don't know the exact time I started let's guess, going by the activity bar that it was 11:38 am. I finished exactly 90 minutes later at 1:08pm (pressed stop on the time tracker when it said 1 hr 30 minutes).

 

What Upwork could do is take the minute that I started the time tracker and add that in at the beginning as an annotation (maybe under the time in small text). Then do the same at the end. They can subtract the first time from the last time and see that the client should be billed for 1:30. Instead the client in this case was billed for 1:40 which is completely incorrect, as we had agreed on 1.5 hours of work. As previously stated, this system just makes me look greedy, stupid or incompetent. Its pot luck trying to bill a client for exactly an hour and a half.

 

The largest gap I see in the screenshots is 17 minutes - do you mean this instead of 27? This change would not effect how a client reviews my work using the screenshots. It would just give a far more accurate summary of how much time was actually logged. By all means round up to the nearest 10 mins at the end of the work week, but not for every instance of time tracked.


 No, I didn't mean 17, because I wasn't referring to a gap between two screenshots. I was referring to the gap between GOOD screenshots, if there was a stray Candy Crush shot in the middle segment. Say, good screenshot at 8:01, Candy Crush at 8:13, good screenshot at 8:29. You have a 28 minute period during which the only screenshot showing is Candy Crush. In the current system, the client (or Upwork, if payment protection is implicated) can neatly deduct that 10-minute segment. For the third time, how would you suggest that they use the screenshots in your scenario, where bill was simply from, say, 7:55-8:35 with no blocking and no additional screenshots?

Jennifer's avatar
Jennifer D Community Member


@Jan H wrote:

...

Since I don't know the exact time I started let's guess, going by the activity bar that it was 11:38 am. I finished exactly 90 minutes later at 1:08pm (pressed stop on the time tracker when it said 1 hr 30 minutes).

 

What Upwork could do is take the minute that I started the time tracker and add that in at the beginning as an annotation (maybe under the time in small text). Then do the same at the end. They can subtract the first time from the last time and see that the client should be billed for 1:30. Instead the client in this case was billed for 1:40 which is completely incorrect, as we had agreed on 1.5 hours of work. As previously stated, this system just makes me look greedy, stupid or incompetent. Its pot luck trying to bill a client for exactly an hour and a half.

 

...


 I don't really get this argument anyway. If you agreed to do exactly 1 hour and 30 minutes of work, why wasn't it a fixed price contract? The hourly contract model works best for jobs where there is some uncertainty about the time required.

 

I frequently advise clients in this forum that they can't "agree" that a freelancer will bill some exact amount of time or hours on a contract, because that's just not how the hourly tracker is designed to work. If you want to bill $200 worth of hours, or exactly 1.5 hours, or something, then use a fixed-price contract. Even if you set a weekly limit, as soon as the work week ends the limit resets.

 

As others have said, on average over longer periods and longer contracts the time tracker averages out to be "fair" to both parties.

 

Personally as a client I hardly ever look at work diaries and virtually never discuss them with my freelancers. Because I build relationships with my freelancers built on mutual trust and respect.

Jess's avatar
Jess C Community Member


@Jan H wrote:

Well that opened a hornet's nest...

 

So I have one guru telling me that it's my job to review my own time, all because the time tracker app can't log when I press start and stop. Can I bill Upwork a 10 minute block each time I have to do this please?

 

And still no-one has any explanation of why Upwork have chosen to work in 10 minute blocks when every other time tracker bills by the minute. It does not even out; it means employers are being overcharged for time. It also means it's very difficult to bill exactly an hour for a client without editing your work diary afterwards - frankly this just seems ridiculous for a system that prefers hourly billing over fixed contracts.

 

I'm only new here but mostly so far, I'm being asked to work in hourly blocks as I build up my profile. One solution given is to WAIT until on the hour or 10 minute intervals to start working. I can't believe this is being suggested as a viable fix. This isn't how freelancing works.


You have a choice of working hourly contracts and dealing with the tracker, or working fixed price contracts and dealing with escrow. If you want to work on this platform, you can't expect it to be tailored to your needs, and your needs only. That is how freelancing works on a platform like this. If you don't want to deal, then don't use Upwork.

Isabelle Anne's avatar
Isabelle Anne A Community Member

I understand the point Jan is making.

 

Please someone correct me if I'm wrong - but the Elance time tracker also took random screenshots but yet still only billed per minute. Isn't that right? Is it so hard to make a tracker that does that?

 

It's not like Upwork's time tracker takes screenshots every 10 minutes anyway - sometimes it's completely random in the middle of a 10-minute segment and sometimes 15+ minutes can pass before another screenshot is taken.

 

This is why I'll repeat: the only reason I feel Upwork keeps the 10-minute tracker is because it gets more money from clients that way. Not all freelancers diligently go through their work diaries and delete low-activity segments, and Upwork profits from that if the client doesn't dispute those segments.

 

That's why I'm really looking for an explanation from a developer or someone who can explain why a minute tracker is difficult to implement. 

 

Apart from the "cheating clients" aspect of this, it's unecessary time wasted for us to have to constantly monitor our work diaries for this. And I, like Pandora, ocassionally end up undercharging clients because of this.

 

Vladimir's avatar
Vladimir G Community Manager


@Isabelle Anne A wrote:

I understand the point Jan is making.

 

Please someone correct me if I'm wrong - but the Elance time tracker also took random screenshots but yet still only billed per minute. Isn't that right? Is it so hard to make a tracker that does that?

 

It's not like Upwork's time tracker takes screenshots every 10 minutes anyway - sometimes it's completely random in the middle of a 10-minute segment and sometimes 15+ minutes can pass before another screenshot is taken.

 

This is why I'll repeat: the only reason I feel Upwork keeps the 10-minute tracker is because it gets more money from clients that way. Not all freelancers diligently go through their work diaries and delete low-activity segments, and Upwork profits from that if the client doesn't dispute those segments.

 

That's why I'm really looking for an explanation from a developer or someone who can explain why a minute tracker is difficult to implement. 

 

Apart from the "cheating clients" aspect of this, it's unecessary time wasted for us to have to constantly monitor our work diaries for this. And I, like Pandora, ocassionally end up undercharging clients because of this.

 


Hi Isabelle,

 

Please someone correct me if I'm wrong - but the Elance time tracker also took random screenshots but yet still only billed per minute. Isn't that right? Is it so hard to make a tracker that does that?

 

Elance tracker took screenshots randomly within 12 minutes segments and used the same method of billing time as used on Upwork.

 

This is why I'll repeat: the only reason I feel Upwork keeps the 10-minute tracker is because it gets more money from clients that way. Not all freelancers diligently go through their work diaries and delete low-activity segments, and Upwork profits from that if the client doesn't dispute those segments.

 

Apart from the "cheating clients" aspect of this, it's unecessary time wasted for us to have to constantly monitor our work diaries for this. And I, like Pandora, ocassionally end up undercharging clients because of this.

 

We've disagreed with statements like these before on discussion threads you participated in, please see one of our replies copied below. 

 

That's why I'm really looking for an explanation from a developer or someone who can explain why a minute tracker is difficult to implement. 

 

Here's one of ouir earlier comments on the same topic:

 

Some of you have proposed tracking billable time by the minute while still allowing for randomized 10-minute screenshots. We’ve explored this possibility, but as of now have no plans to make this change. Here’s why: in order for your time to be “billable”, there needs to be a random screenshot and user activity.

If you were tracking time by the minute, and later decided to remove a screenshot because you were idle, forgot to turn off the Team App, etc. you would be removing that time as a 10-minute increment. So, even if you were only idle for 30 seconds, you’d be missing out on the 9:30 that you were working. This can quickly add up to you “charging less” time for your work. We don’t want that.

We understand the confusion this can cause. However, we have seen that the Team App accurately measures activity and time spent working. We’ll continue to evaluate this and other suggestions, so keep them coming.

Thanks!

 

 

~ Vladimir
Upwork
Isabelle Anne's avatar
Isabelle Anne A Community Member


@Vladimir G wrote:

Hi Isabelle,

Please someone correct me if I'm wrong - but the Elance time tracker also took random screenshots but yet still only billed per minute. Isn't that right? Is it so hard to make a tracker that does that?

Elance tracker took screenshots randomly within 12 minutes segments and used the same method of billing time as used on Upwork.

 

I was almost sure that Elance billing was by the minute, but with randomly timed screenshots. Although I used their time tracker quite a few times, I can't remember it clearly, so I'll have to take your word for it.

 

 Here's one of ouir earlier comments on the same topic:

Some of you have proposed tracking billable time by the minute while still allowing for randomized 10-minute screenshots. We’ve explored this possibility, but as of now have no plans to make this change. Here’s why: in order for your time to be “billable”, there needs to be a random screenshot and user activity.

If you were tracking time by the minute, and later decided to remove a screenshot because you were idle, forgot to turn off the Team App, etc. you would be removing that time as a 10-minute increment. So, even if you were only idle for 30 seconds, you’d be missing out on the 9:30 that you were working. This can quickly add up to you “charging less” time for your work. We don’t want that.

 

Isn't that only because Upwork bills every 10 minutes? E.g., if it billed every 5 minutes, then deleting a screenshot would delete 5 min of billable time, wouldn't it?

 

Maybe I'm missing something. (Or I could just be having a really dense day!) I understand why there has to be activity levels for time to be billable, but why do the screenshots have to be tied to the billable time? Is that just the way it is and no way around that?


 

Vladimir's avatar
Vladimir G Community Manager

Hi Isabelle Anne,

 

A screenshot captures freelancer's screen and shows what they are working on each segment, the work activity levels are reflecting. This allows clients to check if the activity levels are referring to an activity related to their job, and prevent them from being billed for an unrelated activity. Without screenshots clients wouldn't have this insight, just based on the activity levels. 

 

The same issue discussed here would also occur with a five-minute segment and I would presume freelancers wouldn't be on board if screenshots were taken each minute, which would also create other difficulties and inconvenience with this process.

~ Vladimir
Upwork
Sierra's avatar
Sierra V Community Member

I don't think the issue is with 10-minute billing - at least, not for me. The issue is that the segments are fixed X:10 - X:20, X:20 - X:30, etc.

 

If I start working at 10:38, why can't my segments be X:38 - X:48, X:48 - X:58 ...?

The screenshots could still be randomized in these 10-minute intervals, deleting a screenshot would delete the same interval as it does now, and the activity levels would be monitored the same way they are now - I just wouldn't be forced to "wait" for the clock to hit a certain minute just to start working.

 

I've postponed starting work more than ten dozen times now because I didn't want to start at X:X4 and have level 6 activity for the first segment. Usually this is fine, but when I have a client's customer on live chat, they won't wait for 6 minutes just so I can start my tracker and track a full segment.

 

So if I have to be quick to respond, I'm stuck with low level activity segments or manual time.

 

(And yes, Elance had some kind of segments as well, but it didn't bill inaccurately if I started working at 10:38 versus 10:40.)

 

That's what I think we're suggesting, if billing "by the minute" is not possible. Can billing be in just general 10-minute segments, regardless of when we actually start the tracker?

Isabelle Anne's avatar
Isabelle Anne A Community Member


@Vladimir G wrote:

...and I would presume freelancers wouldn't be on board if screenshots were taken each minute, which would also create other difficulties and inconvenience with this process.


That is true. I suppose if we can't go less than 10 minutes, can the team at least consider Ines' suggestion as mentioned below? (if possible)

 

For about half of my hourly contracts, it wouldn't be practical to take others' suggestions and wait to start the time tracker, as these are mostly urgent projects. Obviously I can go in later to the work diary and delete certain segments, but it becomes really inconvenient and after a few years of doing so, it is getting quite annoying. This can also minimize any concerns regarding overbilling a client.

 

I don't know if it's feasible, but I hope that such a change to the way the tracker works (or any other improvement) can be considered...

Valeria's avatar
Valeria K Community Member

Isabelle Anne, Ines and others,

 

We'll be sharing feedback you provided on this thread with the team. However, we can't promise any changes to the way time-tracking, billing, reporting and Protection work on Hourly contracts in the near future. 

 

Thanks.

~ Valeria
Upwork
Jan's avatar
Jan H Community Member

It would be unreasonable for us to demand or expect change but I'm very pleased to see that our voices are not going unheard. I would like to thank the Upwork team for listening to our problems and deciding to review this process.

 

Whether they decide to make any changes or not, I would like to ask if they could share some of the thought processes behind their final decision when it is made, maybe via a blog post. All services don't have to work the same and it can be interesting to learn the reasons for choosing the structures that you ultimately put in place.

 

They may also consider conducting a community survey that they could email out to all members to gather their thoughts on the time tracker, screenshots and billing process.

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