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Re: Calling all MUSIC clients! (Some advice.)

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Active Member
Tasha S Member Since: Jan 11, 2020
1 of 11

I'm just gonna be straightforward, and hopefully UpWork doesn't take this down. Smiley Wink

 

Some of us out here work in the music industry. We are basically on UpWork to fill in the "gaps" during certain seasons or to rack up a savings in a short time. Whatever the reason, we are HERE.

 

**edited for Community Guidelines**

 

Here's how you can help yourselves: 

  • Provide - in your job/task description - your artist name, band name, stage name (whatever the case may be...) so we can check you outDon't worry - we'll make our way back here to UpWork for pay and parameters (TRUST me, because we want the protection too!). But, I can't tell you how many times I've submitted a proposal for an artist who later turned out to be not my niche genre. YES, that matters in terms of integrity and doing YOU justice. For instance, I only do pop, pop/hip-hop...and I dabble in pop/rap and a tiny bit of pop/EDM. YOU DON'T WANT ME REPPING YOUR COUNTRY BRAND, then...now do you? Ignore my credentials; trust me, you don't. Granted, there are things that are across the board regardless of genre, sure. But PLEASE for the love of your career, choose someone who lives and breathes that genre!
  • Choose someone with music industry credentials, not just the freelancer who will do the job for the least amount of money. Be willing to pay for quality and industry-specific knowledge, please! For instance, I come to you as someone:

    -with Artist Management experience
    -with Booking Agent experience (in MUSIC)
    -with Producer Placement experience (A&R, major labels)
    -working on my MBA in Music Business (SNHU/Berklee College of Music, '21)
    -who is an Official Member of The Recording Academy (the GRAMMYs)
    -with a strong (A+ list) network of connections I'm personally acquainted or friends with

    Yeah, it's CLOUT. But still, please don't choose someone to represent you or your brand if they don't even know what half of that clout even *means....

This concludes my TED Talk. Thank you. Smiley Happy 

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Community Guru
Rene K Member Since: Jul 10, 2014
2 of 11

Clients come here only when they have issues they couldn't resolve otherwise. They don't read forums. This forum is read mostly by freelancers.

 

 

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"Where darkness shines like dazzling light"   —William Ashbless
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Active Member
Tasha S Member Since: Jan 11, 2020
3 of 11
Oh, I know. That's why I put it here. I am assuming that clients new to the
UpWork platform will definitely make their way here. They might have
already even made their post. Though they may come here trying to figure
out the pay system, I wanted to post this so when they're skimming, they
go, "Oh, snap - she's talking about...ME. Hmm...OK, mental note, once I get
this pay thing figured out, I'll keep those things in mind...." ;-)
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Community Guru
Varun G Member Since: Dec 11, 2019
4 of 11

This sounds less like friendly advice and more like self-promotion. I don't see how listing all of your credentials (and your college) is relevant at all to a general client or freelancer. Also, you seem to have subscribed to the "appeal to authority" fallacy, which basically states that people who have credentials from an authority are somehow more valid than others. Completely false, especially in Upwork's context. On Upwork, if you can get the job done better, then you're better - clients don't really care where you come from. This fallacy becomes even more relevant in the music niche, where "music industry credentials" are nothing in the face of raw talent. Even Justin Bieber started off as a random guy on YouTube.

I also don't think it's necessary for freelancers to "check out" a client before working with them (beyond the Upwork account check, of course). Why should a client be obligated to give out their personal information? I agree that they should be specific in their job descriptions, but that's just about where our agreements finish. 

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Active Member
Tasha S Member Since: Jan 11, 2020
5 of 11

Varun G wrote:

>>>>>This sounds less like friendly advice and more like self-promotion. I don't see how listing all of your credentials (and your college) is relevant at all to a general client or freelancer.

 

Hi Varun! Heart

 

Since you replied to my post, I'm going to assume you read the title of my original post in this thread. The title is "Calling all MUSIC clients! (Some advice.)" As such, my credentials AREN'T relevant to a "general" client or freelancer, but they are 100% relevant to MUSIC clients and/or freelancers. Smiley Wink 

 

>>>>>Also, you seem to have subscribed to the "appeal to authority" fallacy, which basically states that people who have credentials from an authority are somehow more valid than others. Completely false, especially in Upwork's context. On Upwork, if you can get the job done better, then you're better - clients don't really care where you come from. This fallacy becomes even more relevant in the music niche, where "music industry credentials" are nothing in the face of raw talent. Even Justin Bieber started off as a random guy on YouTube.

 

Oh, wow... LOL. The only "fallacy" here....is the one where you seem to think you've made an accurate point. Varun, I don't think you could BE any more wrong--especially in the entertainment industry (and, once again, the music industry). To state that clients "don't care" where you come from is.....funny, at best....dead wrong, at worst. SMH lol 

BTW: Scooter knew what he was looking for when he reached out to Bieber; it wasn't "just some random guy on YouTube." (But now, don't believe Hart's roast of SB tho, either...haha!) I mean, that makes for a very inspiring story for the fans for sure... Smiley Wink which...is the whole point of telling Bieb's story repeatedly in that way. But, you're beyond ill-informed if you think SB just "found" him, DMd him, and the party got started just like that... haha.  

 

Varun, assuming you have zero experience in the music industry (your profile didn't mention any, so...I think that's a correct assumption)....there is no way you could "get the job done better" than I could. Do you understand that pretty much anything in music involves people? Do you have a network of industry pros? Google.....will only get you so far. LOL You can "research" how something is "done"...or you could shoot a text to your contacts at XYZ Major Label and actually get stuff DONE done.... rather than relying on Google results. 

 

What if a client says "Help me get on an Official Spotify playlist"? What are you going to do - research it and tell the client how it's done? So, A) you're going to find what is publicly available. Cool. Smiley Happy ......and B) What are you gonna do - write back "here's the step by step things that need to happen"? Maybe even attempt to do those step-by-step things you read about in the FAQs somewhere in particular??? I'm sure you've heard the phrase "Wild goose chase" before....

 

As another example: 

 

You mentioned "getting the job done." Once again, here's where being an industry pro comes in handy. I came across an artist's UpWork post last night asking freelancers to pitch this artist to bloggers. The artist left the name of the song they wanted (did you know you pitch *songs and not *artists when it comes to bloggers...but that the reverse it true with labels? Do you know which labels care about traction and which do not? Or would you have needed to research that part as well?) Anyway, I checked out the artist's Spotify link, naturally doing A&R while I was at it since that's what I do on the daily anyway. In doing so, I noticed the artist was missing KEY elements any music blogger would require. So, I messaged the artist and asked what the artist hoped to gain out of pitching to bloggers....because as far as I could tell, this artist was nowhere near "ready" to be pitched to bloggers. 

But, what would *you have done Varun? Probably pitched the artist to music bloggers - after researching how to do that and maybe even figuring out which ones are worthwhile and which are a waste (something my databases already do...). But hey, you would've gotten the job done (so to speak...) huh? Instead, the artist and I discussed career goals, where the artist is on that path, and what the artist really wanted to accomplish by pitching to bloggers - as well as what would be a FAR better idea for this artist right now. No worries; the artist is still an UpWork client. BUT, this artist now knows what is needed at this time and will put money toward *those things instead of "find blogs to cover me" (press). It's a simple editing of the job description, and then we'll go from there. Obviously, I want the client to stay here at UpWork (and that is what's happening), but where you would've simply delivered....*I - being knowledgeable about the music business - went the extra mile. In the end, UpWork will certainly WIN WIN on that, too. 


>>>>I also don't think it's necessary for freelancers to "check out" a client before working with them (beyond the Upwork account check, of course). Why should a client be obligated to give out their personal information? I agree that they should be specific in their job descriptions, but that's just about where our agreements finish. 

 

Once again, you're entitled to "think" whatever you want to think. Of course, that doesn't mean you're correct, but...you do you I guess. 

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Community Guru
Varun G Member Since: Dec 11, 2019
6 of 11

Since you asked, I do have a diploma in vocals (pop & rock) from Trinity College London. Does it matter? Not really. Once again, I don't believe musical talent is necessarily linked to credentials. It's very different from the way computer science prowess can be linked to a MSc. in Computer Science from a prestigious university, because music is a lot more about talent and creativity than learning.

Good luck on the platform. I'm sure you'll go far.

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Active Member
Tasha S Member Since: Jan 11, 2020
7 of 11

Varun G wrote:

Since you asked, I do have a diploma in vocals (pop & rock) from Trinity College London. Does it matter? Not really. Once again, I don't believe musical talent is necessarily linked to credentials. It's very different from the way computer science prowess can be linked to a MSc. in Computer Science from a prestigious university, because music is a lot more about talent and creativity than learning.

 

You're confusing music theory/vocal technique with music business.

 

The two are not one in the same. 

Good luck on the platform. I'm sure you'll go far.

 

I mean....I've been here - on and off - for years (since oDesk), but I'm not interested in going "far" on UpWork. LOL Hence, that grad school degree from Berklee...... ;-)


 

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Community Guru
Amanda L Member Since: Jan 23, 2018
8 of 11

Tasha, I feel you. In my field there are a lot of people who do grant writing but they are not grants professionals and what they do is no where near in the realm of what I do. Like you, I've worked the entire industry of grants (not music) and I know foundations and government agencies in the same way you describe.  So I get it, you want clients to know the difference between someone who is dabbling versus a true pro like yourself. 

 

The only problem is clients only come here when they feel they were scammed. So...probably going to fall on deaf ears. While I am a musician, your talents would be wasted on me. 

 

Previously someone posted in another subforum here a formula for writing script-writing job posts. Again, probably won't be seen by clients, but still useful. 

Active Member
Tasha S Member Since: Jan 11, 2020
9 of 11

Amanda L wrote:

Tasha, I feel you. In my field there are a lot of people who do grant writing but they are not grants professionals and what they do is no where near in the realm of what I do. Like you, I've worked the entire industry of grants (not music) and I know foundations and government agencies in the same way you describe.  So I get it, you want clients to know the difference between someone who is dabbling versus a true pro like yourself. 

 

The only problem is clients only come here when they feel they were scammed. So...probably going to fall on deaf ears. While I am a musician, your talents would be wasted on me. 

 

Previously someone posted in another subforum here a formula for writing script-writing job posts. Again, probably won't be seen by clients, but still useful. 


I actually wish UpWork (and similar sites) required freelancers BE in a specific industry before handling those types of jobs. (Meaning, I don't think clients should have to "test" freelancers; that should've been done at the outset through UpWork so clients can just hire those they vibe high with. ;-) ) 

 

But yes....it'd be akin to me doing grant-writing -- something I haven't ever done before but could certainly Google. Imagine me thinking I could do just as well of a job as you can because I know how to use Google. Can't relate! 

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Community Guru
Bill H Member Since: Aug 18, 2017
10 of 11

Tasha,

 

Your post is applicable across all non-commodity domains. In management consulting I face yet an additional issue because most clients don't know what the real problem is. I am thus compelled to give away identification of the real problem, justify why that is the problem, and outline how to solve it. I will never provide more value than when I tell the client, "Your real problem is ....." My first job when I returned to UW after recuperating from some health issues was with an Australian company seeking a high-powered management consultant for three months work. During our exploration of a fit I identified the real issue and told him how to fix it himself. He paid me for the hour on the phone, although he could have skipped that.

 

One of my longest-term clients owns a publicity firm catering to a niche in the music industry. I, too, have a degree in vocal music, and my first jobs were as an opera singer and a session musician. I couldn't possibly do what she does. One of her clients, a household name in his genre, used her as his manager for a period between managers. It was a stretch, but she did it. Probably because she was being groomed to take over a music label when the industry model fell apart, so she knew all the pieces. She did her MBA and the university hired her as adjunct faculty to teach the Survey of the Music Industry course. Keep  on keeping on.

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