🐈
» Forums » Clients » Decline Refund
Page options
2591126f
Community Member

Decline Refund

This is a hypothetical situation. Suppose Client ‘C’ and Freelancer ‘F’ had a contract for a ‘logo’ or a ‘website’ or anything else.The contract was accepted, the product was delivered, both leave feedback and the contract comes to an end.

 

For some reason, after 3-4 months the freelancer refunds money, to the client. The reason could be anything, like:
1.Feedback was less than ideal. It may be a reason, I am not getting further work.
2. It was a rate I am no longer ready to work and some prospective client keeps on insisting I work at that rate.
3. The second contract with the client went haywire. I should have been careful in selecting the client.I should never have done any work with him. Let me just refund all the money, on all the contacts,I earned from him.
or
4. The work I did is commercially valuable now, I should own it back.

 


In many of such situation I understand the freelancer may be at a loss, practically, as the work has already been delivered.

 

However since the money has been refunded, the client no longer has rights over the work. Suppose it was a logo and ‘ C’ did marketing with it for all this time. He suddenly would find that his work has been bought back by the freelancer and all his marketing efforts may be going down the drain. He loses much more than the ‘Logo’.

 

I understand it may be a very unlikely scenario. But It could, of course, arise due to whatever reason.

 

My question is that Clients can buy the services of freelancer only if they agree to it'The freelancer too should be allowed to buy back only when the client agrees to it. Fair Enough?

If I get 14 days to raise a dispute, the freelancer should also have the same 14 days to do the refund or may be a week extra. Once that time is over, any such refund should have the consent of the client.


Correct me If I am wrong but there is no option for clients to decline ‘ refund’ issued by the freelancer.

 

I may be wrong as there was only once when I was given a refund. The freelancer issued a partial refund (practically all the money on contract), as he felt it was his fault on a previous contract( the second job was created for him to correct those) and he should not charge at all for it. It was such a nice gesture. I was not given an option to decline or accept the refund. Although I could issue a bonus to negate the refund. 

 

But Isn’t such a functionality to decline the refund needed?

Your thoughts?

11 REPLIES 11
petra_r
Community Member


@Vivek K wrote:

However since the money has been refunded, the client no longer has rights over the work.


 I don't believe that is necessarily the case if the freelancer randomly sends money back after some time and without you asking for it back. I've never heard of a case like that.

2591126f
Community Member

Petra,

 

I have written that it is a hypothetical situation. What you say has a valid reason and that is its lack of agreement regarding the return of money in lieu of the product.

 

 

But  I still think It is much better to provide the ability to decline as it keeps the thing simple and easy.

petra_r
Community Member


@Vivek K wrote:

But  I still think It is much better to provide the ability to decline as it keeps the thing simple and easy.


 You want the ability to force someone to keep your money against their will. Nowhere in the world of electronic money movement is that an option.

 

Theoretically you could pay again using the bonus feature, but you just can't force someone to accept money from you if that harms them....

2591126f
Community Member



Vivek K wrote:

But  I still think It is much better to provide the ability to decline as it keeps the thing simple and easy.


 You want the ability to force someone to keep your money against their will. Nowhere in the world of electronic money movement is that an option.

Theoretically you could pay again using the bonus feature, but you just can't force someone to accept money from you if that harms them....



 Petra,

 

I certainly do not want anyone to keep my money, especially if it is harmful to them. My concern is regarding the timeline allowed. I do get 14 days (Fixed Price) and around a week (Hourly) to decide the work. The freelancer should get one week or two week extra after the work is closed to decide if they want to keep the money or not.

If they do not want the money, they can return within that time frame.

 

The money they are seeking to return is 'consideration of the contract' I had with them.  I may not be willing to return the work, I may be using it to further my business. 

 

 

petra_r
Community Member


@Vivek K wrote:

 Petra, I may not be willing to return the work, I may be using to further my business.


 This brings us back to the start. You assume you would have to return the work.

 

I am quite sure you would not have to. If it worries you this much, you can simply include a clause in the contract that you retain ownership even if for some reason the freelancer later decides to refund against your will. Problem solved.

Hi Vivek:

Here's the thing. You're talking about people.

 

So it's not the same as if you were dealing with a computer algorithm or a physics problem.

 

For example, if you wanted to calculate the weight of water in two different buckets, it wouldn't matter how the water got there. Maybe there was a suction that drew water from one bucket into the other bucket. Or maybe there was a pump from the other bucket that pushes water from itself into the other bucket. It wouldn't matter. All you can do is weigh the water, and you get your result.

 

Your hypothetical situation essentially proposes treating intellectual property rights the same way. But that's not a valid philosophy.

 

If I am a client, and if I pay for a logo to be created, then I own the logo.

 

That's it.

 

A freelancer can't rescind my ownership of the logo that I own by sending me money at some later date.

 

But if I, as a the client, somehow take the money back, such as by filing a dispute with my credit card company, so that I end up having NOT paid for the logo... Then in that case I no longer own the rights to the logo. (But that's not what you were proposing.)


@Preston H wrote:

Hi Vivek:

Here's the thing. You're talking about people.

 

So it's not the same as if you were dealing with a computer algorithm or a physics problem.

 

For example, if you wanted to calculate the weight of water in two different buckets, it wouldn't matter how the water got there. Maybe there was a suction that drew water from one bucket into the other bucket. Or maybe there was a pump from the other bucket that pushes water from itself into the other bucket. It wouldn't matter. All you can do is weigh the water, and you get your result.

 

Your hypothetical situation essentially proposes treating intellectual property rights the same way. But that's not a valid philosophy.

 

If I am a client, and if I pay for a logo to be created, then I own the logo.

 

That's it.

 

A freelancer can't rescind my ownership of the logo that I own by sending me money at some later date.

 

But if I, as a the client, somehow take the money back, such as by filing a dispute with my credit card company, so that I end up having NOT paid for the logo... Then in that case I no longer own the rights to the logo. (But that's not what you were proposing.)


 Makes sense. Thanks


@Preston H wrote:
 

If I am a client, and if I pay for a logo to be created, then I own the logo.

 

That's it.

 

A freelancer can't rescind my ownership of the logo that I own by sending me money at some later date.

 

But if I, as a the client, somehow take the money back, such as by filing a dispute with my credit card company, so that I end up having NOT paid for the logo... Then in that case I no longer own the rights to the logo. (But that's not what you were proposing.)


Exactly.

charles_kozierok
Community Member

This is already covered in the user agreement:

 

"Upon Freelancer’s receipt of full payment from Client, the Work Product, including without limitation all Intellectual Property Rights in the Work Product, will be the sole and exclusive property of Client, and Client will be deemed to be the author thereof. If Freelancer has any Intellectual Property Rights to the Work Product that are not owned by Client upon Freelancer’s receipt of payment from Client, Freelancer hereby automatically irrevocably assigns to Client all right, title and interest worldwide in and to such Intellectual Property Rights. Except as set forth above, Freelancer retains no rights to use, and will not challenge the validity of Client’s ownership in, such Intellectual Property Rights. Freelancer hereby waives any moral rights, rights of paternity, integrity, disclosure and withdrawal or inalienable rights under applicable law in and to the Work Product. If payment is made only for partial delivery of Work Product, the assignment described herein applies only to the portion of Work Product delivered."

 

Seems pretty cut-and-dried to me. The hypothetical described here isn't a refund, it's asking if a freelancer can, at a later time, unilaterally decide to impose a new contract on the client by repurchasing rights already foregone. The answer is "no".

Thanks to all of you, for sharing your rational thoughts on this issue.I agree with all of you.

 

However,

I am just requesting a functionality which is in line with upwork's position (which I assumed in beginning and now seems to be true) on the issue.

I understand that it is possible to alter/replace upwork terms with our own terms. But practically most of the time, most of us simply use it.This keeps it simple for most of us.

 

While reading old threads I was able to find this reply from Valeria on the same topic:

The old thread:
https://community.upwork.com/t5/Clients/Rights-to-completed-work/td-p/112089/page/3

 

Valeria says,

Once a freelancer has been paid in full, ownership rights transfer to the client. If the freelancer then issues a refund and the client accepts the refund, the ownership transfers back to the freelancer. If the client doesn't accept the refund by letting Upwork Customer Support know, then Upwork will return the funds to the freelancer and the client will retain the ownership rights.

 

Based on the above reply we now know, that upwork position is that:

1. The rights do get transferred back to freelancer when the refund has been made.

2. The client does have a way to decline the refund and the freelancer would have to keep the money.The method is by contacting the upwork support.

So It means that upwork does recognise the client's right to decline a refund.

There is only one difference. If the client does not say ‘ no’ upwork takes it for ‘yes’.

I may not use upwork for some span of time or I am just too lazy to open a ticket. How does that amount to my consent?

If I make an offer to a freelancer, it does not become a binding contract without freelancer agreeing to it. Simply because they did not decline, does not mean they accepted.

I am asking for the same functionality ‘ I agree’

Isn’t this in line with the upwork's position?

I hope Upwork does take note of it as a feedback. I do not consider that this is a very urgent issue, but I hope it gets attention in the due course of time. Thanks again everyone.

P.S:

 1. I am not against freelancers right to refund if they need to. I just want it to either be delinked with the rights on ‘ product’ (If not done within a limited time) or to be done with client's consent.

2. Moderators may please merge the two threads, I was unable to find the older thread in the beginning.

 

ikramullah007
Community Member

Something like that happened with me. A client send a bonus of 160$ to do a work. I did the work and ended the contract. Client was verified and also paid other freelancers. I trusted the client because of upwork. But after an hour of contract upwork contacted me that the person is fraud and we are investigating him so your amount is on hold. After few more hours they refunded the money back to client and also banned him saying that there were some user agreement voilations. It was not from me but from the client. 

Now if the fruadster was the client why the hell did the give him back my money and closed case as solved. 

Upwork was the guaranteer of my money. Fraudster was the client but why did i lose my money. 

Latest Articles
Learning Paths