Dispute Help

[5597e578]

Hello,

It's my first time to use Upwork. And I have a dispute. In fact it's fixed price contract. One of the Upwork staff let me provide the evidence, and I did. Then he not listen and care about the truth, and directly informed he can't help and want to close the dispute. I'm confused and it's totally not fair for me. 

Is there anyone offer me some good ideas and how to solve? Thank you very much!

Best Regards

Claire 

[g_vasilevski]

Hi Claire,

I'm sorry to hear about the bad experience you've had and the inconvenience this has caused you.

To learn more about our dispute process, you can check out this thread or the Upwork Escrow Fixed-Price Instructions for more details, including the Escrow Dispute Assistance Policy.

If you have any additional questions regarding the dispute process, feel free to follow up with your dispute agent directly and they will assist you further. Thank you.

[5597e578]

I don't know who is dispute agent. And could you please let them directly contact me? I really need a help. 

[AndreaG]

Hi Claire,

I can see you were able to reply to our dispute agent already today, please allow some time for them to review your latest reply and they will update you as soon as possible.

[5597e578]

Hi Goran, 

I need your help! I'm not satisfied with the result. The Upwork representative not help me solve, now directly inform me to close the dispute. Please don't!

My case is special. It's fixed price job $500. But I was cheated and wrote wrong hourly contract. And escrow automatically took my money $1001.67 to the freelancer. Before the freelancer promised to refund me the extra fee and I already provided the evidence. But in dispute the freelancer not talk about it and don't want to refund me. The representative also not assist and not talk about it. It's not fair for me! No matter what, at least this part $501.67 should belong to me. Please refund me.

I have different option with the freelancer, and finally I offer my final suggestion and try to solve. But no one reply. The freelancer not reply, and the representative not assist and also not reply. And then directly inform me to close. OMG, what's the up? Are you respect me?

I know it's hourly contract, but our true meaning is fixed price job. In this way, please give special consideration and more attention. Yes, the freelancer did work, I agree he could get paid and I would offer him. But he not finish and with bad quality, and in fact it's fixed price job, why Upwork connive and agree the freelancer get ALL my money and not refund ? In the processing, Upwork representative not did any mediation...

I paid $1001.67 and waste my time and project, it's a very big lost! Upwork only want to offer me $40 and then close? Sorry, it's totally not fair for me please! The problem is not solved!

I already offer my suggestion to the representative and each time he not support me. Please check again and offer special consideration. Upwork platform should respect each client and also the truth, please be responsible! 

Thank you!

Claire 

[JoanneP]

Hi Claire,

I checked and see that one of our mediation specialists is already assisting you regarding this issue. Please allow time for the mediation specialists to review and get back to you on your ticket. 

[5597e578]

Hello,

My case is still not solved. Your upwork specilist already tried, and not helpful now. Who should I contact?

Best Regards

Claire

[g_vasilevski]

Hi Claire,

I checked your dispute and can confirm that your dispute agent has already followed up on your group conversation. 
If you have any additional questions, feel free to follow up directly there and your dispute agent will assist you further. Thank you.

[5597e578]

Hi Goran,

My dispute agent is serious and all based on your Upwork policy. I said my case is special and request to take special consideration. But I feel they not and directly reject me!

I have two questions. 

1. Total 4 pages $500, average one page is $125. The freelancer only do 1 page without content, without fix, then you want to get my $300. I asked why? No one answer me and directly inform me to close. It's not fair. 

2. The freelancer previous agree to refund me the extra fee $501.67. But now no news, and I'm not get help. Please help.

Thank you!

Best Regards

Claire 

[g_vasilevski]

Hi Clarier,

I understand your frustration with this and I'm sorry for the inconvenience this has caused you. 
I just escalated your concern to our dispute team and they will follow up directly with you with more details and will assist you further. Thank you.

[5597e578]

I know it's signed by hourly contract. But,

1. I was cheated, not my true meaning.

2. The freelancer agree to refund me the extra fee based on our agreement. I already provided the evidence.

Please help again. Thank you.

[JoanneP]

Hi Claire,

I'd like to confirm that your concern has already been escalated. Please allow time for the team to review and reach out to you directly to assist further. Thank you!

[5597e578]

For above my question, the extra money issue I not get reply. This is special one, I think Upwork also need to consider. And I already offer suggestion to your Upwork specilist. Please, take attention!

Besides, the last salary $207 I already write email to inform you to not take with reasons. I remind but no one take care, and still take my money to the freelancer. This mistake who should bear? 

[5597e578]

I sent my last doubt and question, no one reply me. And then your Upwork specilist direclty inform me do not offer any support any more. Too bad service! I won't use you Upwork any more!

[petra_r]

Claire, you created that contract as an hourly contract and added a salary component. That's the basis on which you have been charged.

This is basically between you and the freelancer and even then, you haven't paid anything other than what *you* (nobody else) set the contract up for.

[5597e578]

Goran, I received the reply and just tell me why Upwork do like this. I understand. But the result is not fair for me and difficult. It's still not solve my issue, and not respect the truth. Could you please let me know what should I do ?

[petra_r]

---

Claire K wrote:

Is there anyone offer me some good ideas and how to solve?

---

You can dispute if there are still funds in escrow or if the last milestone was released within the last 30 days.

[5597e578]

Thank you. Last milestone? How to check and operate ?

[prestonhunter]

Claire:

How much money is in dispute?

[5597e578]

$1000. The freelancer don't want to refund me and the Upwork specilist not do anything...

[prestonhunter]

re: "$1000. The freelancer don't want to refund me and the Upwork specilist not do anything..."

For me, that is a significant amount of money. It probably is for you too.

One thing I know about Upwork is that if I fund a fixed-price escrow payment, I may never get that money back. The freelancer may do the work, and request that I release the money. Or the freelancer may claim to do the work and request that I release the money.

Upwork's automated systems don't actually have a way of checking the freelancer's submission to see if the work is complete. And Upwork's policy is that Upwork employees don't check the work.

You said: "One of the Upwork staff let me provide the evidence, and I did. Then he not listen and care about the truth, and directly informed he can't help and want to close the dispute."

Basically: Upwork's employees are prohibited from reviewing the evidence that you provide to them and making a decision about it. This has to do with the fact that you funded money in a true escrow account. Upwork can't make a decision about that money.

According to Forum Moderator Andrea, the dispute is currently being reviewed. You just need to wait for an Upwork representative to contact you and let you know what you should do next.

But basically what is going to happen is an Upwork mediator is going to encourage you to come to an agreement with the freelancer, so that the two of you decide who gets the money. Or you can come to a compromise. For example, you could agree that you each get 50% of the $1000 that is in escrow.

If the two fo you can't come to an agreement, then nobody gets the money. If you both agree to go to arbitration, then the matter can go to a third-party arbitrator who will make a decision about who gets the money. This will cost you $291, and it will cost the freelancer $291. And it will cost Upwork $293. If you decide to go to arbitration but the freelancer won't pay for arbitration, then YOU get ALL of the money in escrow. If the freelancer pushes to go to arbitration and pays the arbitration fee but you don't want to go to arbitration, then the freelancer gets all of the money in escrow.

I hope things work out for you with this situation. I hope that you get all the money back that you want to receive, as quickly as possible. I understand that this a frustrating situation.

For future reference, you may want to keep in mind that it funding an escrow payment can mean never getting that money back, even if the freelancer doesn't do what you want him to. So one strategy is this: Use hourly contracts instead of fixed-price. Another strategy is this: Instead of paying an unknown freelancer $1000, pay him just $50 to do the first part of the task. Then review his work. If you love the work, then pay him $100 to do the next part. Then review that. Then if you love the work and find the freelancer to be reliable and honest, pay him $850 to finish the project.

This way, if the freelancer turns out to be dishonest and unreliable or incompetent right from the start, you only stand to lose $50. Instead of $1000.

[5597e578]

Thank you. Here I have a question. The freelancer really not did a qualify job and not finished my work. And I provided the evidence. But the Upwork specifilist not give a judge and informed can't help anything. I'm confused and why? Why the Upwork as mediator and let me provide evidence but not offer a fair judge? 

[prestonhunter]

re: "Why the Upwork as mediator and let me provide evidence but not offer a fair judge?"

Yes.

You are correct.

The Upwork mediator allows clients to provide evidence. But Upwork does not judget the work that was done by the freelancer. And Upwok does not make a judgement based on the evidence that a client provides.

That is how the mediation process works.

re: "I'm confused and why?"

You are correct.

This IS confusing.

Why does the mediator do this?

The main reason is because the mediator works for Upwork, Upwork pays the mediator. And the mediator is following Upwork's instructions.

The mediator does not want to lose his job and stop getting paid by Upwork. So the mediator follows Upwork's instructions.

Why does Upwork have this policy?

Because this is a true escrow arrangement. And that means Upwork can not make a decision about who gets the money. Upwork can only encourage a freelancer and client to come to an agreement.

If a decision must be made because the freelancer and client can't agree, then that happens during the next step: arbitration.

re: "The freelancer really did not do a quality job and did not finish my work."

It is not Upwork's intention that a client hire a freelancer to do a task, and then not pay the freelancer if the client claims that the freelancer didn't do a quality job.

The intention of the system is that the client pay the freelancer for the freelancer's work.

If the client does not like the freelancer's work, then what is supposed to happen is the stops working with the freelancer.

Here is an example:

Sandra hired an artist to draw a picture of a cat, for a fixed-price payment of $10.

The artist drew a cat.

Sandra hated the picture. She thought the quality was very low.

But the artist really DID draw a picture of a cat. That means that the artist did the task he was hired to do. So Sandra had to pay the $10 to the artist. Those are the rules. She had to pay. Even though the quality was bad.

But the next week, Sandra needed an artist to draw a picture of a dog. She did NOT hire that same artist. That is the "punishment" that the artist received for his low-quality work. He was not hired again.

Also: When Sandra closed the contract, she left honest, appropriate feedback reflecting how she felt about the artist's work.

[5597e578]

Thank you! But still think their systerm very strange. It can't ensure client to get protect. If I know Upwork running like this, I will not use them. Upwork not care the truth and not listen, it makes me upset!

In fact it's fixed price job agreed by both side me and the freelancer. But I was cheated by the freelancer to write down hourly contract. Now have trouble, then he received my money and deny and don't want to refund. I explained the true case, but Upwork specilist judge it as hourly contract and not help me. Totally frustrating situation! I apply for the third party arbitration. But Upwork told me I can't. I feel helpless and my case is special, if so it's not fair for me! What should I do ?

[petra_r]

Claire, there are rules for disputes to be valid and actionable.

Was the contract hourly or fixed rate?

Is that $ 1000 you paid money in escrow or money that has already been paid to the freelancer?

If the latter, when was that money paid to the freelancer?

[5597e578]

Petra, last salary was paid to the freelancer on Dec.27th. Upwork's rule is very strange, I sent dispute on 22th, and the freelancer is not work. But their systerm still automaticly take my money from escrow to the freelancer's account. 

It's contract hourly, all my money are automaticly take away to freelancer. And I can't control. It's far away exceed the amount we agreed as fixed price. And the freelancer not refund me, and Upwork not help me. I'm green hand, and very frustrated. I don't know how to do?

[petra_r]

OK, that makes sense now.

On hourly contracts, you are paying for the time a freelancer spends working, NOT the quality of the resulting end product. If a freelancer is not creating the kind of quality you need, you can fire them, but you still have to pay for the hours they worked provided they have properly tracked their time using Upwork's tracking software.

You are charged every week for the previous week's hours. You then have 5 days to dispute last week's hours (only). After those 5 days, the hours are deemed accepted and you can no longer dispute them.

Even if you dispute in time, Upwork will not look at the quality of the work, only whether the time was tracked with the tracker, was spent working on your project, and with decent activity levels. If that is the case, you can't win the dispute according to the conditions you agreed to.

You can read more about this here

[5597e578]

When I close the contract, why in my side not have refund option? 

The hourly rate is $10/hours, I could see the freelancer work is 20H in my profie, so it should be $200. Why they took me $1000?

[prestonhunter]

Claire:

I really am sorry that you had a disappointing experience while using Upwork.

You are 100% correct in your realization that Upwork doesn't work the way you imagined that it works.

The Upwork representatives you have dealt with were all doing their jobs. They were all following Upwork policies properly.

If you have any questions at all about how Upwork works, then don't hesitate to ask.

If you have recommendations for how Upwork should do things differently, feel free to make your recommendations here in this thread.

In my personal opinion:

Refund thinking hurts clients, and your unfortunate situation is a good example of that. If you use Upwork again in the future, you will save time and money if you think to yourself: "I will never try to get money back from a freelancer, no matter what." This decision helps save time and money. Because this way, a client proactively monitors a freelancer's work, and if the client doesn't love the work, the client closes the contract immediately. Another tip: Always use an hourly contract instead of a fixed-price contract so that you avoid having money tied up in escrow. It is easier to close an hourly contract quickly and simply because there is no escrow payment made in advance that you need to ask to be refunded.

[prestonhunter]

re: "When I close the contract, why in my side not have refund option?"

Clients are presented with that option when closing a fixed-piece contract which has money remaining in escrow.

This is not an option presented when closing an hourly contract.

There is an option to dispute hours, if a client goes to the work diary. A freelancer's hours may be disputed during the five-day review period immediately after a work week ends.

Just because you are able to dispute hours, it doesn't necessarily mean Upwork will remove those hours from the time that you need to pay for. If the freelancer followed the rules of Upwork Payment Protection, you stil need to pay for those hours.

In my personal opinion:

Refind thinking hurts clients. The best thing a client can do to protect herself is to plan to never dispute, never seek a refund, never try to get money back from a freelancer no matters what. If a client plans that way, it will help her save time and money.

[5597e578]

Preston, thanks for your helpness. 

I'm not a very rich boss and I have my budge running my project. Besides it's not my fault, why I should bill for the freelancer. I can't understand, sorry. If Upwork is a famous platform, then it should take responsible and keep fair role for client no matter how much. Otherwise why we could support and use it?

Yes, it's hourly contract. But I was cheated! It's means of deception! If so, it's totally not fair for me. At the same time I provided the evidence it's fixed price job. Upwork should take special consideration, not tough by their rules and hurt me.

Besides, Upwork just let both side offer evidence, but not say anything, and not do anything judge work, just respect. The freelancer want to get the most of money, And I offer enough reasons to show it's not reasonable, and send me suggestions. Then no one reply. And Upwork directly let me accept the freelancer's unreasonable request. Strange! Why Upwork not assist and judge based on both side in the group? Why he not offer real help but seem be partial the freelancer?

It's already waste my time and project, do not want to compensate, and want my money. I can't accept! Terrible and sad experience. I expect Upwork to consider again my situation and give me a good deal!

[petra_r]

---

Claire K wrote:

When I close the contract, why in my side not have refund option? 

---

Because you missed the dispute deadline.

---

Claire K wrote:

The hourly rate is $10/hours, I could see the freelancer work is 20H in my profie, so it should be $200. Why they took me $1000?

---

What do you mean "in your profile"? You need to go to the actual contract, there you can see how many hours at what rate were charged. It sounds more like the hourly rate was $50 if 20 hours were logged. Or the hourly rate was $10 but 100 hours were logged. Or you paid a bonus or a salary or something else.

You'll see that via the contract.

[5597e578]

It's hourly rate $10, weekly payment $500. It's two weeks, but the freelancer only work 5 days. Terrible rules, even though not work, still pay the freeancer one week $500. 

I try to find the contract details, but not more...

[prestonhunter]

re: "Goran, I received the reply and just tell me why Upwork do like this. I understand. But the result is not fair for me and difficult."

Claire:
I feel for you and your situation.

I don't think anybody here doubts your sincerity.

Nobody here doubts that this situation has caused you great disappointment and distress.

But to address a few or your points:

I don't believe that anybody who works for Upwork has claimed that what happened is "fair."

Also: I don't think anybody at Upwork has said that what happened to you is not "difficult."

Nobody here in this thread has said that what happened is "fair", and nobody has said that it is not difficult.

re: "It's still not solve my issue"

If by "solve your issue" you mean: "Did you receive all of your money back?"

...Then the answer is: No, your issue was not "solved."

re: "and not respect the truth."

I think the thing that you need to understand is that this isn't about the truth. This is about policies and rules. Upwork employees and representatives are required to follow Upwork rules and policies. They aren't allowed to simply do whatever you want.

Upwork employees did NOT do what you want, but they aren't paid to do that. They are paid to follow Upwork policies. They don't want to lose their jobs because they violated Upwork rules in order to help you.

The biggest problem is that Upwork's rules are NOT what you imagined them to be.

You said many times that you think Upwork's system is "strange."

You are 100% correct.

Upwork's rules and policies ARE strange:

If by "strange" we mean: "not what you are accustomed to."

This is true.

Upwork's system is also "strange" if by that we mean: "not what you think it should be."

Upwork's system is indeed not what you are accustomed to, and it is not what you think it should be. But it is what it is.

There is nothing wrong with jumping in and using a tool without reading the directions. That is perfectly acceptable to do as long as we are willing to take our lumps. That is one way to learn how to use a tool or system. You didn't read all of the directions before you started using the tool. That's fine. But that means you must be willing to take your lumps. Your posts indicate that you are not willing to take your lumps. Please correct me if I am wrong about that.

re: "Could you please let me know what should I do ?"

I don't believe that you have asked any questions which have not yet been answered.

The thing that you should do is PUT YOURSELF FIRST.

I believe you are putting the needs and interests of one particular freelancer AHEAD of your own needs. You should not do that. You should put yourself first. Put your own nees first. Put your project first. That means moving on and moving forward. Don't give that freelancer any more of your time and effort and thought and energy. He doesn't deserve anything else from you. He has already taken too much.

[5597e578]

Thank you. Yes, it's a very big lost for me......

One question, even it's hourly contract, but we have agreement that the freelancer will refund the extra fee to me. And I have the evidence.

Is this ok? 

[prestonhunter]

re: "One question, even it's hourly contract, but we have agreement that the freelancer will refund the extra fee to me. And I have the evidence. Is this ok?"

If by "okay", you mean:

Have you (the client) done something wrong?

Yes, it is okay. You have not done anything morally wrong.

You did not do anything immoral or unethical.

And you did not violate any Upwork TOS (Terms of Service rules).

So you are "ok" in that sense.

That is what is most important:

Did you behave honorably?

I believe you DID behave honorably.

It is possible that the freelancer did NOT behave honorably.

I think you have tried to restore the freelancer's honor by giving him an opportunity to do the right thing. Your attempts to restore this freelancer's honor appear to have failed. Thus: This freelancer carries the stain of dishonor.

There is another thing to consider:

Are you are "okay" in terms of the final outcome?

The answer is: no.

You are not okay because you paid $1000 and you did not receive the value that you expended to receive for your money.

You did nothing immoral. But you made tactical mistakes that led to an unfortunate outcome.

[5597e578]

You're totally understand my situation and feeling. Thank you.

Tactical mistakes? Yes. Could you please kindly let me know what's the mistake and what's the right operation? I want to avoid in the near future.

For "OK", my meaning is that I know Upwork's policy, but in my case, even it's hourly contract, but I can provide evidence to proov we have other agreement that the freelancer promised to refund me the extra money always included before sign the contract and during the contract. I mean if in this case, can Upwork help me to refund the extra money?

[prestonhunter]

re: "Tactical mistakes? Yes. Could you please kindly let me know what's the mistake and what's the right operation? I want to avoid in the near future."

The main tactical mistake that you made is that you used Upwork without first understanding even the basics of how contracts and payments work.

Also, you did not monitor how much you were paying to this freelancer each week.

Also, you relied on "promises" made by the freelancer. But "promises" don't count.

You need to understand that Upwork has millions of users. So everything is done by automated software on a server. The automated software charges your credit card and sends money to a freelancer. The automated software does not understand written or verbal "promises" that a freelancer made to you.

re: "but in my case, even it's hourly contract, but I can provide evidence to prove we have other agreement that the freelancer promised to refund me the extra money always included before sign the contract and during the contract. I mean if in this case, can Upwork help me to refund the extra money?"

Upwork's policy is to not look at evidence.

Upwork's policy is to not look at proof.

Upwork's policy is to not enforce promises that a freelancer made to a client.

Upwork runs on automated software. The software system is not capable of understanding evidence, proof or promises. Those things require humans. Upwork does not want to pay humans to deal with those things.

re: "I mean if in this case, can Upwork help me to refund the extra money?"

Upwork personnel in this thread have said that they are working on your case/ticket.

I can't say for sure what they will do.

I don't work for Upwork.

I only know what my PERSONAL policy is: As a client, I want to do everything myself when it comes to managing freelancers and contract. I never want to wait for Upwork or rely on Upwork. I understand how the Upwork system works. That understanding gives me immense power. I don't need help from Upwork Customer Support. 

[5597e578]

Upwork not looked at evidence, but they request me to provide. Are Upwork kidding?

For my last salary, I sent to their human 3 times, remind and request to help, not software systerm. But they pretend to not see and listen. And now replied me not give any support any more. I'm so disppointed for Upwork, and won't use this platform! 

Your last words are inspired me! Thank you very much. Even I lost $1000 and lose this dispute, at least I tried my best, it can't let me down, I will stand up and move forward. This experience is precious, it let me understand the world is complicated, no fair, and sometimes are cruel, but as human we still have to keep a kind and positive heart to go ahead. Besides, I want to "punish" the freelancer to write the true case and remind others to take care.

Thank you so much for your suggestions. I learn a lot : )

[tagrendy]

At this point the only thing that might help to get a refund would be leveraging feedback, since it's a $1000 project, the feedback you leave will have significant impact on freelancer's profile, you can let them know that you will leave a negative review and that you are extremely unhappy with them.