Dispute with Freelancer

[77a150ba]

I was new at Upwork. I had invited a freelancer for a project. I had an hour conversation with him talking about my data set and the project. I got notification from the Upwork saying your project has started. I understood that I was asked to pay for the conversation that I had with the freelancer, which was absolutely fine with me. I had second conversation also during which he talked about the deadline and said he has got limited availability. Hence, I told him that I would get back to him on the information about the deadline so that he can start the project only if he finds the deadline realistic. But before I get back to him to say that the deadline won't suit his availability,  I found that he had started working on the project already. I was not aware that he'd already started because Upwork didn't notify me this time. I guess Upwork notifies only the first time. What do I do now? I have lodged a dispute but does Upwork review what we had talked during Upwork Zoom Call? 

[petra_r]

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Reema R wrote:

 I have lodged a dispute but does Upwork review what we had talked during Upwork Zoom Call? 

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No. First of all Upwork don't record the call, so have no way of reviewing it. All they look at is whether the freelancer has used the tracker to track their time, have a reasonable work memo describing what they are working on and decent activity levels, as well as whether all screenshots show them working on your contract.

If the freelancer tracked their time correctly (see above), then the freelancer wins the dispute.

If not, you do. 

If some of the time was tracked correctly and some wasn't, you get refunded for the parts that were not tracked correctly (only).

[77a150ba]

In one of the instances, I've texted asking not to move ahead. Will the text count as an evidence?

[AleksandarD]

Hi Reema,

I'm sorry to hear about your experience with the freelancer. Petra is correct, the calls are not being recorded. Please note that we will not be able to discuss the details here because it's a public Community. The team will continue assisting you via the open ticket to resolve the situation. I suggest checking out this thread for more information on the dispute process.

Thank you.

[77a150ba]

I just went through the work book diary. All I can see is: the freelancer googling pics of different types of dogs. Okay, my data is dog related, but why would someone google the images of the dog breeds and waste time and for the whole tracked time.

[prestonhunter]

Reema:
This is not complicated.

If you don't want to continue working with this freelancer, then stop working with this freelancer.

If you highly value this freelancer's work, then you may continue working with this freelancer.

If there are time segments that don't qualify for Payment Protection, then you can dispute those time segments and you won't need to pay for that time.

When a client dispute time segments, Upwork personnel follow a very simple set of instructions for determining if the time segments can be removed or not.

Yes, disputing time segments is an option you have. But more important than what you see in time segments is how you feel about the work the freelancer is doing for you, and how his work compares to the work done by other freelancers on your team.

You mentioned "evidence" in one of your posts. It is important to understand that Upwork is not interested in "evidence." Something that may seem obvious to you, something that is written down in plain text, isn't necessarily something that Upwork can consider or use to reverse funds. The intended flow of the Upwork hourly contract system system is simply: "Freelancer logs time. Client is automatically billed for that time."

Decisions about whether to continue working with a freelancer are the client's to make. Refund thinking hurts clients. It is best to STOP paying a freelancer rather than to pay a freelancer and then try to get some of that money back. Trying to get money back is always a gamble. NOT paying a freelancer in the first place is a sure thing.

[feed_my_eyes]

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Preston H wrote:

Reema:
You mentioned "evidence" in one of your posts. It is important to understand that Upwork is not interested in "evidence." 

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If the screen captures show that the freelancer was Googling dog images the entire time that they were supposed to be working, I think that Upwork could take an interest in that.

[prestonhunter]

re: "If the screen captures show that the freelancer was Googling dog images the entire time that they were supposed to be working, I think that Upwork could take an interest in that."

Well, when I said that Upwork does not want to consider "evidence," this was a specific reference to the client's comment about a note that the freelancer wrote in Messages. The client's "evidence" comment wasn't about work diary screenshots. But more importantly, I was talking about general principles... things to keep in mind in order to be a more knowledgeable, more effective client.

The client stated: "In one of the instances, I've texted asking not to move ahead. Will the text count as an evidence?"

The simple fact is this: the Upwork employee assigned to review work diaries is not going to look at that "evidence."

In my opinion: The client was thinking that she has a "good case." She thought she can point to various facts and evidence and then Upwork will see she is right and she will get money back. But that isn't how the system works. It is best to understand that this is not how the system works, and know the best way to hire and manage freelancers in order save time and money.

But you bring up a good point, which underscores what I was talking about:

It's a gamble.

The client asked the freelancer to work on a project that is all about dogs. The screenshots show the freelancer looking at pictures of dogs.

Do you know for certain that the Upwork employee/agent assigned to review the time segments will agree that the time segments should be removed? Maybe they will agree. Maybe not.

I don't know. The client doesn't know.

So relying on how an Upwork employee will decide this is gambling with money.

That is why I said that the "sure thing" is to not pay the freelancer any more by ending the contract. Rather than thinking "maybe I can get a refund", it is safer to stop working with a freelancer that you don't highly value.

[petra_r]

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Preston H wrote:

So relying on how an Upwork employee will decide this is gambling with money.

That is why I said that the "sure thing" is to not pay the freelancer any more by ending the contract. Rather than thinking "maybe I can get a refund", it is safer to stop working with a freelancer that you don't highly value.

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As you maybe know, the two are not mutually exclusive. The OP can decide to no longer work with the freelancer and dispute time, which she has already done. That involves no gamble. The money has already been paid. She'll either get some or all of it back, or not. 

[prestonhunter]

re: "As you maybe know, the two are not mutually exclusive."

I agree.

One of the very first things I said in this thread was that disputing the time segments is an option for this client.

re: "The OP can decide to no longer work with the freelancer and dispute time, which she has already done. That involves no gamble. The money has already been paid. She'll either get some or all of it back, or not."

I agree that the original poster is not gambling anything at this point by trying to dispute those time segments. She may well not get any money back, but she risks no further money by trying to do so.

But I believe every client is better off understanding that thinking ahead of time that one might get money back from a freelancer is always a gamble.

Client: "If this freelancer doesn't work out, I'll just get my money back."

Reality: Not necessarily.

Client: "If my editor rejects the blog article this freelancer writes, I can dispute and get my money back."

Reality: Not necessarily.

It is always safer to stop paying an underperforming freelancer than to let the freelancer continue logging time or receiving milestone payments for unusable work. Receiving work that doesn't meet my my needs as a client, or that I claim to "not like," doesn't mean I am entitled to get money back. When a freelancer logs time working on my project and doesn't produce the end results that I was hoping for, that doesn't entitle me to get money back.

It is always a gamble to think that I can hire a freelancer and let that freelancer log time, or release milestone payments to that freelancer, or even simply fund a milestone payment, and assume that I can get that money back.

==========

Update: In a later post in a different thread, the original poster indicated that Upwork did NOT remove the dog image screenshot time segments from the time that she had to pay for.

[77a150ba]

Yes, but Upwork won't even reply to my emails. I bet Upwork has read my complaints. 

[LuiggiR]

Hi Reema,

I can see that you raised a dispute for the hours logged by the freelancer. Rest assured it's already in the team's hands and they'll get back to you soon.

[77a150ba]

Ok, I don't think Upwork will take any action but still I'm sharing to the community so that I feel relieved and will help the new joiners. I was new to upwork and checked to find that one of the freelancers' work diaries consisted of his own pics and nothing else. He's logged one hours, and I  paid for it. HAHAHA

[a_lipsey · Accepted solution]

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Reema R wrote:

I was new at Upwork. I had invited a freelancer for a project. I had an hour conversation with him talking about my data set and the project. I got notification from the Upwork saying your project has started. I understood that I was asked to pay for the conversation that I had with the freelancer, which was absolutely fine with me. I had second conversation also during which he talked about the deadline and said he has got limited availability. Hence, I told him that I would get back to him on the information about the deadline so that he can start the project only if he finds the deadline realistic. But before I get back to him to say that the deadline won't suit his availability,  I found that he had started working on the project already. I was not aware that he'd already started because Upwork didn't notify me this time. I guess Upwork notifies only the first time. What do I do now? I have lodged a dispute but does Upwork review what we had talked during Upwork Zoom Call? 

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Reema, did you invite the freelancer to submit a propoal and be interviewed or did you send a contract offer? It sounds like you sent a contract offer. In the future, post a job and interview the freelancer and make sure that they have the appropriate availability and that you are ready to send them all the materials to start BEFORE you send them an OFFER. This freelancer clearly took advantage of your misunderstanding of the system. Hopefully Upwork will be able to assist you, since it sounds like  the screenshots are unrelated to the work being asked to be done. 

[77a150ba]

Hi Amanda

Finally someone understood me. Yes, you're right. I directly sent the freelancer a contract. He tracked time before he would start the project. One another freelancer was even smarter. He logged one hour but his work diary consists of his own pics only. 

[a_lipsey]

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Reema R wrote:

Hi Amanda

Finally someone understood me. Yes, you're right. I directly sent the freelancer a contract. He tracked time before he would start the project. One another freelancer was even smarter. He logged one hour but his work diary consists of his own pics only. 

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Any ethical freelancer would have had a call with you before accepting the offer. I once had a client I'd never met before send me a contract offer out of the blue. I messaged them to schedule a call, and they never responded, so I let the offer expire. I think they accidentally sent offers instead of invites. There are, unfortunately, freelancers who will take advantage of the system that way. If I had my way, Upwork would boot them permanently for that shenanagins. 

I'm sorry this happened, and I hope Upwork is able to assist you within their guidelines to get your money back. Unfortunately they are also bound to their TOS, so they may not be able to do anything. But let's hope otherwise. It sounds like you have a case that the screenshots are unrelated.