Dispute with a freelancer

[6d319773]

Hello everyone.

I hired an engineer on upwork back in February to design a shampoo bottle lid for our company. He was a top rated freelancer who spoke very good english, and he was very knowledgable during our brief skype call.

I asked him how long he expected the project to take and he told me could do it comfortably in 100 hours. If it went any longer he would do it on his own time. I agreed to this proposal.

He quickly charged me for the 100 hours and presented a lid design that leaked hugely during prototyping. Fast forward six months, and he has still been unable to provide me with a working lid mechanism.

He is now asking for more money to continue working. 

So long story short, I'm now down $6000 and I have nothing to show for it.

What should I do? Anyone been in a similar situation ? 

[jmeyn]

David,

File a disput with Upwork. If you have released any payments consider them to be lost.

[ravi_iitian]

Hello David,

100 hours for designing a bottle lid?

Tell the person that you will file a dispute and recover all $6000 if he doesn’t provide a satisfactory solution within a week.

Do not pay that person any more. He obviously does not know what he is doing.

If the person does not does not provide a satisfactory solution within a week, file a dispute and recover all $6000 that you have paid.

[6d319773]

Hi Ravindra,

I am still trying to find a peaceful resolution to this. I have given my freelancer another 2 weeks to complete the job, though I worry with the breakdown in relationship even if I receive the file it will not be production ready.

I will wait these two weeks and hope for a good outcome. Otherwise I will then start a dispute with Upwork.

Thanks for your reply.

David

[elastella]

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@Ravindra B wrote:

Hello David,

100 hours for designing a bottle lid?

Tell the person that you will file a dispute and recover all $6000 if he doesn’t provide a satisfactory solution within a week.

Do not pay that person any more. He obviously does not know what he is doing.

If the person does not does not provide a satisfactory solution within a week, file a dispute and recover all $6000 that you have paid.

---

I don't think that will work.

It sounds like an hourly contract. Clients can only dispute hours that were logged in the previous week - that's what the weekly review period is for. Also, disputes must be based on hours billed, not the quality of the work.

https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/211062158-Dispute-a-Freelancer-s-Hours?flash_digest=04d...

[ravi_iitian]

There is no way to tell whether the design will actually work till the end of the project.

The client releases intermediate payments on good faith.

The inability of the freelancer to deliver a working solution presents a case of incompetence or possibly fraud.

[ravi_iitian]

The current rules of Upwork may not allow a full recovery of the total payment.

Upwork needs to reformulate some rules to prevent fraud.

[jmeyn]

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@Ravindra B wrote:

The current rules of Upwork may not allow a full recovery of the total payment.

Upwork needs to reformulate some rules to prevent fraud.

---

No. The client gave the contractor carte blanche by setting it up as an hourly job. Would he have done that offline? Only with an employee probably not with a company providing packaging design. 

[ravi_iitian]

“No. The client gave the contractor carte blanche by setting it up as an hourly job.”

I concede.

With the current rules, the hourly jobs are basically carte blanches.

[jmeyn]

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@Ravindra B wrote:

“No. The client gave the contractor carte blanche by setting it up as an hourly job.”

I concede.

With the current rules, the hourly jobs are basically carte blanches.

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True, at least for jobs running for several weeks and no working milestones in-between. Such jobs ought to be set up as fixed price jobs. Generally if a client wants to receive a specific result and not the hours worked, they ought to set up fixed price jobs.

[jmeyn]

Exactly Ela. The client should have made it a fixed price job instead of an hourly contract. With hourly jobs the contractor owes a certain number of hours, not a result. With fixed price jobs the contractor owes a result. I dare say the money is lost.

[ravi_iitian]

The dispute will at least highlight the case.

If the freelancer has a history of incompetence/fraud, the dispute could pave the way for removal of the freelancer from Upwork.

[vladag]

Hi David,

I'm sorry to hear about your experience on this job. You are taking appropriate steps by communicating with your freelancer and trying to resolve the issue amicably.

If the issue with your job continues and you arrive at the impasse, please contact Customer Support and our team will take a look and advise.

[lysis10]

This would be one of those times that it's better to hire in the same country and have your own contract.

[ravi_iitian]

Hello David,

It all boils down to the fact that if a client chooses the Hourly Payment option, then the client is responsible for approving each stage of the work.

Trusting the freelancer is up to the client; sometimes the results can be disastrous.

Perhaps it would have been wiser to have an engineer from your end supervise the entire job.

[claudiacezy]

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@David E wrote:

He quickly charged me for the 100 hours and presented a lid design that leaked hugely during prototyping. Fast forward six months, and he has still been unable to provide me with a working lid mechanism.

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 Is it possible that the leakage may occur due to the production methods?

The manufacturing plant might be using standardized equipment and the design it's not workable if the equipment doesn't support entirely the design specifications.

[jutta_beinker]

are there any upwork rules in regards to a service not rendered?

[ravi_iitian]

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@Jutta B wrote:

are there any upwork rules in regards to a service not rendered?

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Let's wait for a mod to respond. 

[ravi_iitian]

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@Claudia Z wrote:

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@David E wrote:

He quickly charged me for the 100 hours and presented a lid design that leaked hugely during prototyping. Fast forward six months, and he has still been unable to provide me with a working lid mechanism.

---

 Is it possible that the leakage may occur due to the production methods?

The manufacturing plant might be using standardized equipment and the design it's not workable if the equipment doesn't support entirely the design specifications.

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It is unlikely that the equipment being used is incapable of the desired tolerances.

Besides, the freelancer was expected to use Australian Standards, unless told otherwise.

[colettelewis]

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@Ravindra B wrote:

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@Claudia Z wrote:

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@David E wrote:

He quickly charged me for the 100 hours and presented a lid design that leaked hugely during prototyping. Fast forward six months, and he has still been unable to provide me with a working lid mechanism.

---

 Is it possible that the leakage may occur due to the production methods?

The manufacturing plant might be using standardized equipment and the design it's not workable if the equipment doesn't support entirely the design specifications.

---

It is unlikely that the equipment being used is incapable of the desired tolerances.

Besides, the freelancer was expected to use Australian Standards, unless told otherwise.

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Perhaps this information has been deleted by the mods, or perhaps Ravindra has made an assumption based on the OP's probable location, but I do not see on this thread where the OP has mentioned that he specified "Australian Standards" to the freelancer?

[ravi_iitian]

@Nichola

From his profile.

Good to see you back. 

[colettelewis]

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@Ravindra B wrote:

@Nichola

From his profile.

Good to see you back. 

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 Thanks Ravindra! 🙂

[claudiacezy]

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@Ravindra B wrote:

It is unlikely that the equipment being used is incapable of the desired tolerances.

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If that was true, we would see all kind of lid mechanisms for shampoo, fragrances bottles. Did you notice they all look almost the same?

The OP has spent a considerable amount for the design. Why would he need to if not for something that goes beyond a regular lid mechanism?

[ravi_iitian]

Do you have a background in engineering or technology?