Disputing manually logged hours

[bilal1983]

Hi everyone,

One of my clients recently added me as a Hiring Manager on his UW account, and I started receiving the billing summary of all other freelancers on the team for the weekly time logged.

As I had also started managing the work of these freelancers, I knew how much work they were doing more or less, and when I saw that one of them: Mr. A had billed 40 manual hours for the previous week, it seemed really odd. I suspected wrongful use of manual time immediately, and I informed the client about it, and whether he had allowed this. He said he had no idea, and said there is no way Mr. A. worked 40 hours, based on the work output, and based on the activity logs on company application systems.

When he checked previous billings, we found out Mr. A. had started logging 40 manual hours per week in September, 2022. Before that there was still some or complete manual entry, but more realistic (between 15-25 hours per week), and then towards the end of September he started entering 40 hours per week up until last week when I noticed it.

The client has been extremely busy and did not notice this was happening, and did not expect any foul play would happen.

He wants to dispute these hours, and wants a refund for the extra hours that have been billed.

Other than immediately disputing the past weeks 40 manual hours, is there a way to dispute all the manual hours billed since September?

[prestonhunter]

re: "When he checked previous billings, we found out Mr. A. had started logging 40 manual hours per week in September, 2022."

Too late to do anything about that.

re: "Before that there was still some or complete manual entry, but more realistic (between 15-25 hours per week), and then towards the end of September he started entering 40 hours per week up until last week when I noticed it."

The time to dispute a freelancer's manually logged time is during the five days immedately after the end of the work week.

re: "Other than immediately disputing the past weeks 40 manual hours, is there a way to dispute all the manual hours billed since September?"

There is no official way to do that.

You could try contacting Upwork Support.

But honestly? I think it is a longshot.

The best thing that any client can do is to proactively plan to NEVER dispute and NEVER ask freelancers for money back.
Because it's a huge gamble to try to do something like that. It's better to plan to NOT DISPUTE no matter what. That will help you decide to monitor hours and work properly.

Your best chance might be to ASK the freelancer to refund some of that money, and explain that if he doesn't refund some money, you'll have to report him to Upwork. That may or may not work. But it's free to do this. So it's worth a shot.

[sajal36]

I believe disputing something post approval will reflect lack of review at client end. However it is important that integrity is maintained in all work that freelancer do. So my suggestion will be to do the thorough review of the hour logged, if you find discrepancy than you must let go the freelancer. Anyone not working as per code of business conduct is bound to be at receiving end and face consequneces.

[PradeepH]

Hi Bilal,

Thank you for your message. I am sorry to hear about the inappropriate billing. I shared your report with our team and one of our agents will reach out to you using a support ticket to investigate this and assist you further. You can access your support tickets here. In the future, please request the client to review the work diary and dispute any inappropriately billed hours during the client review period which starts at 12 noon UTC on the Monday following the close of the billing period until 23:59 UTC on the following Friday.

Thank you,

Pradeep

[bilal1983]

Hi Pradeep, thank you for sharing it with the team. I received a message from support, asking for more info on the contract to assist further, and I have responded. Let's see what they advise, and if there's something we can do. I feel bad for the client, and I strongly suspect the freelancer has acted unethically and took advantage of the fact that client was busy with other things and did not monitor the logged hours.

[prestonhunter]

re: "I feel bad for the client, and I strongly suspect the freelancer has acted unethically and took advantage of the fact that client was busy with other things and did not monitor the logged hours."

The client made a mistake by not having a project manager.

This does not excuse any bad behavior on the part of the freelancer.

But I care more about the client than I do about this unethical freelancer.

Because I care about this client and other clients, I want this client and other clients to use best practices and to look out for themselves.

This means either:

a) hiring a project manager

[or]

b) learning how to do the work of a project manager

It is quite possible that this client WILL NOT GET ANY MONEY BACK, after letting a freelancer use manual time to log 40 hours a week for couple months.

Upwork DOES NOT PREVENT this.

Most freelancers would never do this. But there are some unethical people with freelancer accounts on Upwork who will do something like this.

It is NOT THE CLIENT'S RESPONSIBILITY to prevent this.

Whose responsibility is it?

The project manager's.

It is the project manager's responsibility to monitor and evalute the work done by freelancers. It is the project manager's responsibility to fire underperforming freelancers. It is the project manager's responsibility to hire multiple freelancers, compare them, and continue working only with the ones who provide the most value to the project.

[bilal1983]

Thank you Preston, I understand what you're saying and let the client know that past payments may not be recoverable, unless the freelancer agrees to refund.

Client also realizes his error in not monitoring the billing summary. The good news is, this will not happen again for sure. Manual time would be disabled, and he will have someone perform as project manager.

[bilal1983]

Hi Prashant, I was communicating with the Upwork rep on the support ticket, but suddenly I'm not able to access that page, because it is asking for a Username and Password, but even after entering it repeatedly, nothing happens and the Sign in window to upwork.zendesk.com keeps popping up.

I thought I was entering the wrong password so I changed it and tried again but facing the same issue is repeating.

[AndreaG]

Hi Bilal,

Could you please try replying via the notification sent to your email address?

[25005175]

That is a recurring issue. Your best recourse is to just respond to the ticket emails directly.

[bobafett999]

You need to fire that Mr. A

[bilal1983]

Update: We had messaged the freelancer to give him a chance to justify the use of 40 manual hours per week, as company systems did not show any work logs, but he was unresponsive so the client terminated the contract and decide to go to mediation, which Upwork had offered us. Even though client realizes that previously paid out manual hours are technically not recoverable, he wanted to pursue mediation and go the maximum possible extent as the freelancer clearly violated trust and abused the manual time option.

I have permission from client to represent him in mediation, and provided the billing summary going back to September. He started using manual time mid Sept., and started with partial tracked hours, and then adding remaining weekly limit with manual time (For e.g.; 15 hours 30 minutes tracked, 24 hours 30 minutes manual), and then began adding complete 40 hours manual.

We are still waiting for his reply on the mediation ticket.

Meanwhile, client had written a professional and matter of fact feedback on his profile, and I noticed he has probably used his top-rated perk to remove the feedback. However, his JSS is at 68% from 100%. I wonder if that would also go back to 100% at the next calculation?

[bilal1983]

During dispute mediation we showed clear proof that there is no chance the freelancer worked 40 hours per week. Initially the freelancer came back with a lot of fluff, and tried to show he was working, but we responded to each point, and demanded evidence of work done during manually logged hours.

The mediator asked us if we could reduce the number of hours we are disputing, and we minused hours appropriate for the work that was showing on the work logs. We added an extra 10 hours to be more than fair.

Freelancer agreed and said I will refund the whole contract, not just the disputed manual hours, (probably a tactical ploy to show he was the victim here), and then says he will pay back in installments over a year.

The client expected this, and had said the freelancer will drag this on, and make it as ugly as he can.

I'm thinking, in cases where a freelancer agrees to refund payments, do the funds go directly from him to the client, or does Upwork refund the money to the client and then recover from the freelancer?

We want Upwork to handle and recover the funds so that freelancer complies, because we strongly believe the freelancer will not be regular in paying back monthly, and we would need to chase after the payments.

[PradeepH]

Hi Bilal,

Thank you for your message. Freelancers can initiate a refund directly from the contract page if they have the available balance on their Upwork. In case of no available balance, they need to add the funds to their Upwork account to initiate a refund. 

Thank you,

Pradeep

[bilal1983]

Hi Pradeep, thank you for your message. Has it happened before, or is it possible that the total amount to be refunded (agreed by both parties), be credited to the client by Upwork, and then recovered from him in installments as the freelancer is suggesting?

Our concern is, once the mediation is over, we would have to keep chasing after the monthly installments with the individual, and if Upwork is involved, it would make compliance easier.

[prestonhunter]

re: "or is it possible that the total amount to be refunded (agreed by both parties), be credited to the client by Upwork"

The Forum Moderator said that won't happen.

The refund money needs to come from the freelancer. It is not coming from Upwork.

I very much hope that the client gets this money back from the freelancer.

For all other clients reading this: I strongly advise you to proactively plan to never get money from freelancers. No matter what. No matter what you think you can prove. No matter how bad the freelancer was. You will save time and money if you vow to never ask for a refund. Because that is a gamble. The safe way to manage freelancers is to monitor their work and fire them if you don't love their work.

[bilal1983]

Hi Preston, I agree that clients should make sure they monitor the activity and the situation we are in could have been avoided. I'm representing my client on this dispute, and he wanted to pursue with dispute, as Upwork offered to mediate.

Upwork clarified they would only mediate and not present any judgement, but would try to help both parties agree to a fair resolution.

Since we entered the dispute, both sides presented their side, and supporting evidence. After which client insisted on a refund. Now, the freelancer has agreed on a refund.

I understand that refund has to come from the freelancer, but I also know that when a chargeback happens, Upwork immediately credits the amount and then recovers from the freelancer. That is why I was inquiring, if this kind of arrangement can be done to ensure client is paid.

[6bfcdaf8]

Wow, very critical story for both freelancers and clients. I rarely use manual time as a freelancer for a good reason. I'd never want to be in this position, a client asking me for proof and returns, many months after work has been done.

This is like you've hired someone as a full-time employee, and they didnt get much done in their first 3 months, instead they've been hiding around. You'd eat the cost as an entrepreneur and tell yourself to be more careful with your next hire. This actually shows how little risk upwork involves compared to full time hiring.

[bilal1983]

It definitely is lesson learned for us (the client). If I was in-charge of the Upwork contracts, I would definitely monitor the billing summaries. The client was busy and did not pay attention, nor did he expect misuse.

The freelancer's contract history shows, he started adding manual time the same day he started working with a different client, and was doing it since then. Before that he did not work more than 30 hours ever, when being tracked (average 10-20 hours per week).

If I was ever using manual time for an extending period, it would be a nightmare having to show proof of work months after. But, even if there is no proof, I would be able to explain what tasks I was doing, if I was actually working full-time. The freelancer in this case, just listed the original job description he had, which he worked on in the initial 4-5 month period when he tracked time, and the work only involved outreach: calling or emailing stakeholders using the company CRM or the Call software, so everything was tracked. During the disputed period, company logs showed no more than 30 hours of work in total since September 12th, 2022 (total manual billing was for 650 hours)

Freelancers response was, he was working on creating strategies, and that's why there are not enough calls to show. He said he worked through LinkedIn, and when we requested to see proof of messages, he shared screenshots of about 10 messages, all from the same month, whereas he was billing manual for about 5-6 months.

So in this particular case, although my client realizes it is his mistake for not checking sooner, we are 200% sure this individual was unethical, and therefore insists he deserves a refund for the disputed manual hours. Earlier in the contract when there was no work, the freelancer often did not track any hours, and when he was given tasks he would track, but then he probably realized client got more busy and took advantage.

The weekly limit was raised to 40 hours mid-contract months before he started using manual time. It was for an outreach campaign and would require freelancer to make a high volume of phone calls. That campaing had ended, and while it lasted, his weekly never went above 30 hours. And then he later maxed out the 40 hours.

Upwork is suggesting a non-binding resolution where freelancer can refund payments just for the last 30 days, but client thinks he deserves a refund for all the disputed months.

[bilal1983]

The dispute is a matter of principle so strong for the client, that he is even considering requesting his bank for a chargeback based on the proof he has, even though he is aware doing do could affect his standing as a client on Upwork.

And I can't disagree with him on this. He says I can't let someone get away with such wrongdoing, and he has learned this lesson in life, with other people taking advantage and getting away with it, and that he will stand up for himself and fight back no matter how inconvenient it may be be.

[25005175]

While I certainly understand and agree with the principle of fighting against financial exploitation, I believe that your client was negligent for too long to be able to use that argument.

Clarisse: "I will stand up and fight for myself for business exploitation that I ignored for months!"

Donna: "You should have done that from the start. You received a record of the exploitation every week! Managing your finances was your responsibility!"

[bilal1983]

Can't disagree with what you're saying here as well. It's a tough one. The client does discuss things with me but ultimately makes his own decisions. I have advised to accept the amount being suggested by the mediator, so we can have this behind us. Hard lesson learned.

[prestonhunter]

Doing something as a matter of principle, no matter the cost:

The client absolutely has a right to do this.

This makes him a zealot, not a businessperson.

I support this client's right to be a zealot instead of making a business decision thst would best serve his financial interests. Even though that is not the same decision that I would make.

[lysis10]

Another lesson in why you should use Tracker. Some freelancer could come around and tell the client that no way you took that long but with Tracker you can laugh at that freelancer. It's win-win.

[bilal1983]

Yes, I now see how the use of manual hours can cause complications. With this same client, I too had the manual billing active, but I started using it after at least 6 months working with the company, and built trust. And I used it sparingly, when needed. For e.g. I sometimes have to put in sporadic work sessions of a few minutes here and there, or I forget turning on the tracker, and then later add a combined work session of like 20 or 30 minutes. So having the option to add manual hours is handy. But not to be allowed with new freelancers you work with.

I hired another freelancer for the same client, and he immediately requested we enable manual time because he would be working on other things in between, which I politely declined saying we would like all work to be tracked and that we do not encourage working on things simultaneously, and that he should be solely focusing on one contract / activity even if it's 10 minute sessions.

[prestonhunter]

Bilal: That was a wise choice.

[bilal1983]

Thank you Preston! I'm learning from the pros here...

[f5a217a2]

Hello there,

If you suspect that a freelancer has logged more hours than they have worked, you can try the following steps to dispute the hours:

1- Communicate with the freelancer: Reach out to the freelancer and explain your concerns. Ask for clarification on the hours logged and any evidence they have to support their claims. If you can come to a resolution, this is the best outcome for everyone involved.

2- Dispute the hours through Upwork: If you can't reach a resolution with the freelancer, you can file a dispute through the Upwork platform. The dispute process can take some time, so it's important to be patient.

3- Gather evidence: Before filing a dispute, gather any evidence that supports your case. This can include work logs, screenshots, or emails that show the work that was done and the hours logged.

4- Provide clear documentation: When you file the dispute, be sure to provide clear and concise documentation of your concerns. This will help the dispute resolution team understand the situation and make a fair determination.

Best of luck resolving the situation.

[bilal1983]

UPDATE:

- Client wanted a refund of the manual hours during entire disputed period: around 5-6 months.

- Freelancer agreed to refund but in monthly installments over 12 months.

- Client wanted in max 3 installments.

- Mediator suggested a resolution of a refund of only past 30 days, and recommended an amount (about 27% of the total amount client wanted)

- Freelancer agreed to refund this suggested amount.

- In order to reach a resolution, client also agreed.

- Freelancer said he needed to check with his bank, and requested one week to respond back.

- After a week, freelancer said he has changed his mind and will now not be refunding anything.

- He says that this is because we tried to destroy his account, and also leaked all the info of the mediation on the community. He saw this post and screenshotted my message from earlier when I asked if the top-rated perk would also reinstate the JSS back to 100%.

- Freelancer claims that this is a personal vendetta from my side, and that I tried destroying his profile, and that is why he will now not refund as agreed.

[prestonhunter]

Thank you so much for taking the time to provide a detailed update!
You help all of us by making us more informed.

[prestonhunter]

What can we learn from the experience that the original poster reported to us?

Clients should plan to never get money back from freelancers, no matter what.

In this situation, a freelancer behaved dishonestly for a period of many months. Eventually the client caught on. Client confronted freelancer. Freelancer ultimately admitted it and agreed to refund a portion of the money. But ultimately the client received zero money back.

The client would have better off having a very strong personal policy to never ask freelancers for refunds, no matter what. This policy means the client checks the freelancer's work.

This works: Checking a freelancer's work. Firing an underperforming freelancer.

This doesn't work: Not checking a freelancer's work and thinking it will be possible to get money back if something goes wrong.

[prestonhunter]

Hiring freelancers is different from buying products.

A restaurant bought an expensive blast chiller from a restaurant supply store. The blast chiller did not work. They took it back and received a full refund.

A restaurant hired a waiter. He didn't go out to the dining area. Instead he sat in the break room and played games on his phone.

After four months, the manager realized that the waiter never worked, but just clocked in and collected pay. The restaurant fired the waiter, but never considered trying to get money back from him.

[25005175]

The response at the end is almost amusing, because the Community would probably have more respect for the freelancer if they continued with the refund, based on the information that you've shared.

Also, none of us (besides you and Upwork) know who this Freelancer is. How can their reputation be destroyed if there is no name to link?

I imagine that this must be immensely frustrating for you and your client. You have my condolences.

[bilal1983]

UPDATE:

Since an agreement was not reached (an agreement was made but one party reneged), and since the dispute cannot remain open indefinitely, the ticket has been closed.

The mediator said the client may pursue the matter independently if they wish to do so.

[25005175]

Best of luck to you