Dissapointed about the work of a freelancer -Dispute

[c4428383]

Hello to all the team members , 

i have an hourly-basis contract with a freelancer . He has made a lot of job until now but unfortunately nothing works . All the site has problems and errors . I am trying to find a solution with him one month now i paused the contract some days ago , but i don't think that there is any solution . I want to take my money back and hire another freelancer to fix my project . What is the right way to do this ?

[prestonhunter]

Ionnis: I strongly recommend that you focus on your project and your own needs, rather than continuing to spend time and energy on an undeserving freelancer.

You don't owe this freelancer another second of your time.

The "right" way to handle the situation is to work only with the freelancers on your team who provide you with the most value. Hire new people if necessary.

Have your project manager monitor all work as it is submitted, and quickly close contracts on underperforming team members.

It may be technically possible to get some money back from this freelancer. But in most such situations, when the client considers the question: "Why bother?"

...he realizes that doing so isn't worth his time and effort.

You should keep in mind that with an hourly contract, you pay for a freelancer's time, and not for a specific deliverable. If the freelancer logged time manually (instead of with the time-tracker), or if the freelancer did not record adequate memos, or if the mouse/keyboard activity is too low, or if the screenshots don't show the freelancer working on your project, then you may dispute those time segments within the week after the work was done, and Upwork will remove them. For most situations, it isn't worth the bother to go through the work diary to check, but it IS possible and you MAY be able to get some money back if there are recent work diary segments which are disputable based on these reasons.

To provide context: How much money have you paid to this freelancer, in total?

[prestonhunter]

re: "I want to take my money back and hire another freelancer to fix my project . What is the right way to do this?"

If the original freelancer's work was as bad as you way, then it would probably be less expensive to hire a new freelancer to create the project from scratch.

Of course it depends on exactly what kind of work was done previously, and it depends on the nature of the project. But it is often going to be more expensive to FIX a poorly-created project that doesn't work... than to start over.

[BojanS · Accepted solution]

I'm sorry about your experience with this freelancer, Ioannis.

Our team will reach out to you directly via a support ticket and advise on further steps.

Thank you!

[c4428383]

I own a small local business and I am trying to find a solution. It is difficult for me to give more money on this project to start it from the beginning. The financial situation is difficult for everyone due to the coronavirus. I was expecting to start selling products by now -the freelancer told me that the website would be ready by now when we started on February- and I have even made a campaign on the local radio for my website and taken down the previous site I had on WIX. Now, I am in the middle of nowhere, with a site that does not work as intented and a freelancer that has almost given up and answers me once per day. The most important task was the XML/CSV importing which he asked more money for and failed to accomplish, since it is full of errors. He has worked some hours but definitely the final outcome is poor. All I have right now is a non-operating website and an empty pocket. Previously I had a fully operating site and some money that I could have invested elsewhere...

[prestonhunter]

I am sorry if you have had difficulties with this project. But however much money you have already spent, and however much money you now have... these numbers do not change the fact that this freelancer is not the right person for the job.

You need to stop working with this freelancer and work only with people who provide you with the results that you need.

The most important tip I could provide you with is to pretend that concepts such as "refunds" and "disputes" do not exist. These are harmful and costly to clients. Instead of thinking that you might be able to ever get money back if something goes wrong, do this: Manage your projects proactively, evaluate all work that is submitted, and quickly close the contracts on the freelancers who provide you with the least value.

[feed_my_eyes]

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Ioannis P wrote:

I own a small local business and I am trying to find a solution. It is difficult for me to give more money on this project to start it from the beginning. 

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Please do follow through with Upwork and they will explain your options. Your freelancer might be willing to offer at least a partial refund if their performance was truly as bad as you say.

[ankgeek]

I had hired a freelancer and freelancer started work using the hourly tracker. 
He logged around 3h for the project. And kindly note that he mentioned that he started working on his local machine. That means I have no access or not sure if he worked on anything or not. 

After that he STOPPED responding to me and then I filed a dispute and he did NOT even respond to the dispute. 

So basically dispute went to the freelancer favor. Here I have nothing got delivered to me at all after even paying for those tracked hours. And if freelancers failed to respond to dispute isn't it should be in my favor?

It seems like a fraud happened to me. 

Very disappointed with the UPWORK DISPUTE REVIEW SYSTEM and FREELANCER I HIRED BOTH!

[VladimirG]

Hi Ankur,

I'm sorry to learn about your experience with this freelancer and I understand you are unhappy with the decision made in regards to a dispute you initiated on your Hourly contract. I see our team is communicating with you on your support ticket and our dispute agent will follow up on the most recent message you posted there. I'd like to kindly ask you to refer to the information our team provided on your ticket since we can't discuss account and contract-specific issues in the Community. Thank you for your understanding.

[prestonhunter]

re: "Very disappointed with the UPWORK DISPUTE REVIEW SYSTEM and FREELANCER"

Effective, successful clients are never disappointed with the Upwork dispute system, because they don't use it.

They know that they can simply fire freelancers if the freelancers don't measure up to their expectations.

The dispute system really only makes sense for freelancers to use. I see no reason why a client would initiate a dispute. The very concept is counterproductive to a client's interests.

[tta192]

"If you can't buy it twice you can't afford it."

Your freelancer looked promising in the beginning but you both went ahead unaware of the possibility of this person to fail on delivering what you needed. Had you thought about that on time, you might have considered other options, too: either not doing the project at all (and keep the money) or choosing a more expensive freelancer/agency offering you a guarantee (meaning you don't pay if you don't get useful results).

A project is never risk-free so you must be prepared to both win or to lose. When choosing a low-cost solution you're more exposed to the latter so you must be prepared to try again.

[prestonhunter]

re: "he mentioned that he started working on his local machine. That means I have no access or not sure if he worked on anything or not."

It is completely unnecessary for a freelancer to do work like this on a local machine.

If this is a concern, then only work with freelancers who work on a server that you have access to.

Personally, when I am hired for any project, the first thing that I do is set up a private server account for the client and provide root credentials to the client. I do all my work there. That way the client has complete access to all work in real time. The client can review the work or copy and archive the work at all times.

[ankgeek]

@prestonhunter

"Effective, successful clients are never disappointed with the Upwork dispute system, because they don't use it."

=>

This is not true because I have seen many cases before with my other friends on Upwork itself where clients have disputed the funds when there was an issue in the project. 

Here the point is not about firing freelancer. Point is why would freelancer get away if he is not responsible enough to just a response to my messages? I think that only one single minor issue can be more than enough to file a dispute regardless of the user is a freelancer or a client. 

Setting up the server and working on it can never be a problem. It was just a start of the project and freelancer himself mentioned before that he will push all in the server too but after that boom.. he vanished and not got a single reply till now!!

[feed_my_eyes]

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Ankur M wrote:

@prestonhunter

"Effective, successful clients are never disappointed with the Upwork dispute system, because they don't use it."

=>

This is not true because I have seen many cases before with my other friends on Upwork itself where clients have disputed the funds when there was an issue in the project. 

Here the point is not about firing freelancer. Point is why would freelancer get away if he is not responsible enough to just a response to my messages? I think that only one single minor issue can be more than enough to file a dispute regardless of the user is a freelancer or a client. 

Setting up the server and working on it can never be a problem. It was just a start of the project and freelancer himself mentioned before that he will push all in the server too but after that boom.. he vanished and not got a single reply till now!!

---

Just follow up on your ticket with Upwork, because they won't discuss your situation in the forum. There's no point in arguing with a freelancer like Preston, because he doesn't work here and can't help you get any money back.

[varungs]

Ankur, Preston always seems to forget a pretty key presupposition (that the client is to be rich). I'm sure there are many effective clients out there who are brilliant and are pleasant to work with -- they just may not have $3,000 to burn on a scam freelancer. If a freelancer scams you, misrepresents their work, or does not deliver what they promise, it is perfectly reasonable for even the best client to file a dispute.

[prestonhunter]

Varun:
My advice to clients to plan on NOT using disputes is primarily geared toward budget-conscious clients... people who are NOT rich.

If a client is rich and money is no object, then the client can afford to hire freelancers and just let them work and not pay much attention to it. if they end up not liking something, maybe they can file a dispute, and maybe get money back, maybe they don't. It does not matter much either way.

But if a client is on a budget, or really needs to be careful with her money (for whatever reason), THAT is when it is important to work with freelancers in a proactive, thoughtful way - with the presupposition that the client does NOT have money to burn. Such clients monitor the work done by freelancers closely, especially in the beginning, and they quickly close the contract on freelancers who are not providing them with the best possible value, and helping the client save money on the project.

If a client is on a tight budget, the client decides now that there is "no such thing" as a dispute as far as she is concerned. And instead of racking up large dollar amounts in money paid to a freelancer for work that she MIGHT be able to get SOME money back for, she makes sure she doesn't waste any money in the first place.

re: "...may not have $3,000 to burn on a scam freelancer. If a freelancer scams you, misrepresents their work, or does not deliver what they promise..."

Instead of spending $3000 and then trying to get it back... An effective client doesn't spend $3000 on work that she can't use, or which isn't of the quality that she needs for her project. MAYBE a client can get SOME of that money back. Maybe not. It is much more of a sure thing to spend money wisely on work that is of good value and which you CAN use in your project, than to try to get money back. That is true when working with Upwork, and with any other platform, or pretty much anything else.

[petra_r]

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Preston H wrote:

Varun:
My advice to cllients to plan on NOT using disputes is primarily geared toward budget-conscious clients... people who are NOT rich.

---

No, it is not. It's a "well off hobbyist client with minimal contract values" view which is about as far removed from the reality of actual clients who are clients as part or on behalf of a business as a rowing boat is from an aircraft carrier. 

Obviously no (honest) client "PLANS" to use the dispute process. But successful real world clients use the process as intended: Rarely and as a last resort. 

Trying to shame clients into writing off money and encouraging potentially fraudulent freelancers in the process at every conceivable opportunity with the same insulting phrasing is getting so incredibly old.

The statement "Effective, successful clients are never disappointed with the Upwork dispute system, because they don't use it." is simply a unrealistic generalisation and ultimately untrue.

[varungs]

I see where you're coming from, but I still firmly believe that if a client gets scammed, they should attempt to retrieve the money through the dispute process. Simply saying "alright, I'll just stop working with this freelancer now that they've scammed me" is a luxury that many do not have due to budget constraints. Also, if a freelancer scams $3,000 on Upwork, then attempting to get it back does not cost anywhere near $3,000. Letting the matter slide would be foolish, and only a very wealthy person would do that.

[prestonhunter]

Varun, I agree with you.

I regularly provide detailed information to clients about how they can dispute payments and get money back.

In my very first post in this thread, I provided detailed information about how to dispute payment and get money back. But as I often do, I also identified a more effective way to manage projects, which is to not continue paying money to freelancers who don't deserve it. Then you don't need to try to get the money back.

Pointing out that trying to get money back is not an effective way to manage projects does not mean that I don't help clients as much as possible when things go wrong for them.

I have offered advice to clients that has helped them get a lot of money back when things have gone wrong. This includes by disputing hours that don't qualify for protection, disputing fixed-price escrow payment, as well as simply asking the freelancer for a refund (which is often the most effective method).

Keep in mind that the $3,000 figure is a number that you just made up, as an example. I specifically asked the original poster how much money he spent on this project, and he did not answer.

What if the figure is nowhere near $3000? What if it is $300? Or $50?

The precise number does not change fact that we are dealing with a disappointed client. But it helps put things into perspective.

 
I wish it was possible to pay any amount on Upwork and have guaranteed outcomes. But that is not something that Upwork can promise, nor can any other platform.

[feed_my_eyes]

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Preston H wrote:

Keep in mind that the $3,000 figure is a number that you just made up, as an example. I specifically asked the original poster how much money he spent on this project, and he did not answer.

What if the figure is nowhere near $3000? What if it is $300? Or $50?

The precise number does not change fact that we are dealing with a disappointed client. But it helps put things into perspective.

---

It doesn't matter what the exact figure is, because the client has made it clear that it's an amount of money that he cannot afford to write off. It's not for you to decide what his "perspective" should be.

[c4428383]

Update 11/4/20 :

After a lot of messages since my last message with the developer today after my proposal he accepted to give me a partial refund . I told him that i don't want to cause him a problem and i offer him a serious amount of money so as to end this mess and move on . He told me yes that he will give me a refund .

After some hours he sent me a message that he will give me the refund after 15 days and i told him to make it as soon as possible . When answering that he told me that i am unprofessional . 

I own this small local business from 1998 . Usually when i deliver something to my clients i take my money . If i do not deliver something i do not get my money . In this situation i give all my money to him , i invest to him and i get back nothing . All the code that he has built is an error . Every day i find a different problem and a different error . Every day he tells me that everything is fine and nothing works . I have spoken with 10 different developers from all over the world and all are telling me the same thing . End the contract with him and change plan . How to move on without my money ? How to move on with a close business due to the coronavirus , a ghost website that nothing works and a developer that he is keep saying that he will fix everything in 3 days . He is trying for a simple site that sells furniture almost 2,5 months and he has done nothing . 

I have some screenshots of the converation that he told me that he will give me back some money as a refund . Every hour he tells me different things. I will send all the converation to the upwork team and i hope that i will find a way to move on . 

It would be the first time in my life that i will pay a serious amount of money without getting anything . And i make this because i want to move forward . I do not know what else to do . I am dissapointed . 

[lysis10]

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Ioannis P wrote:

Update 11/4/20 :

After a lot of messages since my last message with the developer today after my proposal he accepted to give me a partial refund . I told him that i don't want to cause him a problem and i offer him a serious amount of money so as to end this mess and move on . He told me yes that he will give me a refund .

After some hours he sent me a message that he will give me the refund after 15 days and i told him to make it as soon as possible . When answering that he told me that i am unprofessional . 

I own this small local business from 1998 . Usually when i deliver something to my clients i take my money . If i do not deliver something i do not get my money . In this situation i give all my money to him , i invest to him and i get back nothing . All the code that he has built is an error . Every day i find a different problem and a different error . Every day he tells me that everything is fine and nothing works . I have spoken with 10 different developers from all over the world and all are telling me the same thing . End the contract with him and change plan . How to move on without my money ? How to move on with a close business due to the coronavirus , a ghost website that nothing works and a developer that he is keep saying that he will fix everything in 3 days . He is trying for a simple site that sells furniture almost 2,5 months and he has done nothing . 

I have some screenshots of the converation that he told me that he will give me back some money as a refund . Every hour he tells me different things. I will send all the converation to the upwork team and i hope that i will find a way to move on . 

It would be the first time in my life that i will pay a serious amount of money without getting anything . And i make this because i want to move forward . I do not know what else to do . I am dissapointed . 

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lol are you in a dispute? Sounds like he's counting down the clock so the money will be gone from the account.

I can't tell if you are in a dispute. If you are, then just wait for the mediator to get to the case and work it out then.

[prestonhunter]

re: "I have spoken with 10 different developers from all over the world and all are telling me the same thing . End the contract with him and change plan"

I agree with them, that you should end the contract with this freelancer.

I am not sure what you mean by "change plan."

If your plan is to have a website through which you can sell the products that your company makes... I do not think that you need to change that plan just because one freelancer did not succeed in meeting your expectations.

If you want to have a website, you should continue to work towards that goal.

The website that the current freelancer created may even be viable and something that can fixed and used successfully.

You said that you are using it every day. Does that mean that you DID receive something, and you would like the site improved upon rather then abandoned completely?

People here in the Forum are willing to help you achieve your goals, by offering advice on how to hire and manage projects effectively.

If "change plan" means that the people you have talked to were advising you to change the technique or architecture used by the original freelancer.... Then I can confirm that yes, if is normal for other developers to offer that advice. Without seeing it myself, I would not be able to say for certain whether that is what I would personally recommend.

I have no way of knowing whether you have an essentially well-constructed body of source code which needs some fixes, or if you have something which most definitely should be abandoned completely. (And I am not available for hire on this project, so I will never personally know.)

But you will recall that in an earlier post I pointed out that it is usually more expensive to fix a project like this than to start over. That is a generalization. That is something I said without actually examining what you have.

[feed_my_eyes]

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Ioannis P wrote:

Update 11/4/20 :

I do not know what else to do . I am dissapointed . 

---

It sounds like you've been way too nice to this freelancer and he is continuing to take advantage of you. If I were you, I would stop being nice and say, listen up, you can either give me a partial refund now, or we can go to arbitration and you'll risk losing the whole thing.

Of course, there's a possibility that you could also lose if it goes to arbitration (I've only heard one side of this story), but if it were me, I would have a huge problem with any freelancer who wasted my time for months and stole my money, so I would fight back.

[c4428383]

I sent all the screenshots of our discussions to the upwork team .

I described them the situation and sent them everything .

I am waiting now to answer me that everything is fine. I don't want more money as a refund , i just want what we have agreed to find another freelancer to fix the issues and start running my business. In my whole life i am respectful to what i agree with the others but i am not sure that this freelancer tells me the truth .

[tta192]

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Ioannis P wrote:
I sent all the screenshots of our discussions to the upwork team .

I described them the situation and sent them everything .

I am waiting now to answer me that everything is fine. I don't want more money as a refund , i just want what we have agreed to find another freelancer to fix the issues and start running my business. In my whole life i am respectful to what i agree with the others but i am not sure that this freelancer tells me the truth .

---

Upwork may help you find another freelancer but it will not pay for fixing the project nor for running your business. "Running" a business takes more than just assigning a task to a random stranger and forgetting about it. You need to supervise your processes & apply corrections in real time, as opposed to complaining at the end when it's simply too late. If your plan is not to run the business into the ground, that is.