Do you pay for time-tracked for failure to deliver?

[c49870a2]

Hello,

I have a contract with freelancer, and we wanted to implement a new function in our software and freelancer researched and gave us estimation of 8-10 hours to implement. But after tracking 10 hours in work diary the freelancer informs he is unable to do it because he is having issues compiling and etc..  

Shouldn't freelancer reverse the time tracked as he was unable to implement the function at all after tracking 10 hours as per his estimation for work. ?

If you take your car to a garage and the mechanic says estimation time 10 hours to fix the problem. But he creates the bill for 10 hours but says he couldnt do it after attempting to fix it. 

[prestonhunter]

This is a great question, and a great topic!

I don't think there is any one answer to this. It would depend on the situation.

Of course, if this is a fixed-price contract, then this isn't an issue. If your contract is to deliver File X...

And you royally mess up while creating File X... You simply need to do what it takes to correct your mistakes. You need to deliver File X to the client, and you don't get paid more than what the contract stipulates just because you spent so much more time.

But what about with an hourly contract?

Personally, I typically turn off the time tracker if I need to fix a mistake that is my mistake.

But it definitely depends on the specifics. If the client is having me explore some unknown territory, and I've told him I'm not an expert or specialist in this... Then I may well bill for time spent experimenting and exploring how to accomplish our goals. Even if that includes some mistakes and missteps.

[c49870a2]

Hi,

I understand if it was agreed to experiment, but instead freelancer was told to explore the options and provide us with estimated hours it would take to complete this task.  And the Freelancer after researching and analyzing provides you that it would take 8-10 hours to implement it.  

Now you will pay for the Analyze part as a client as he was exploring the options and letting us know if its possible to do it.  

After the freelancer provides the client an estimation and as a client, you agree for X hours as told by freelancer after doing the analyzing of the requirements and inform you that he can deliver it. And you agreed for X hours for the complete implementation but after X hours tracked the freelancer informs that sorry it could not be done. So i believe it was a failure at freelancer part to properly analyze it before starting the work and giving the client estimation. And being professional he should not charge the client for failure on his part to analyze it.

[versailles]

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@Charu S wrote:

Hi,

I understand if it was agreed to experiment, but instead freelancer was told to explore the options and provide us with estimated hours it would take to complete this task.  And the Freelancer after researching and analyzing provides you that it would take 8-10 hours to implement it.  

Now you will pay for the Analyze part as a client as he was exploring the options and letting us know if its possible to do it.  

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If I understand this well, I think that the problem stems from the fact that you asked the freelancer to explore an uncharted territory on his or her own time and to come up with an estimate. The proper way of doing it would have been to hire them to perform this exploration and to decide after. With the risk that their answer could be, No, I can't do it.

The freelancer, having not been paid to do the initial research may not have put enough work into it and could have mistaken themselves into believing that they could do the job. They should have known better and should have said from the beginning that the price estimation requires some work that has to be paid for (but would you have accepted?).

However, the end result is pretty much the same. You ended up paying for an exploratory work which conclusion was, unfortunately,  that the job was not doable, at least not by this person.

[c49870a2]

The freelancer was being paid for the initial research and exploration to provide the estimation for the work to be carried out.  Based on the exploration freelancer provided the estimation to complete a particular task.  Let me clear the estimation was to "complete" the task  

The freelancer took complete time to check the requirements and explore and test the functions and based on that the estimation and came up with X hours,  and freelancer was allowed to track time throughout the exploration and research before coming up to estimation 

[versailles]

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@Charu S wrote:

The freelancer was being paid for the initial research and exploration to provide the estimation for the work to be carried out.  Based on the exploration freelancer provided the estimation to complete a particular task.  Let me clear the estimation was to "complete" the task  

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Ok. Then, in my opinion, he failed to see that he won't be able to do the job. Based on the information you provided, I think that at least, he should not have billed you for anything else but the initial exploration.

[prestonhunter]

Charu:

I definitely see where you are coming from. I do not blame you for being frustrated at being billed for ten hours of work which ultimately did not produce the result that you were hoping for.

In one sense, this is not really a question that a client can answer. Only a freelancer can answer this.

I know that seems one-sided, but officially Upwork's policy is that with hourly contracts, clients pay for a freelancer's time, not for specific deliverables or results.

Thus, the decision to not bill for any time spent working on a project due to mistakes or lack of success can only be made by a freelancer.

Many clients would commiserate with you and understand your disappointment, but would still never consider allowing a freelancer to work without getting paid for their time, no matter what kinds of mistakes or lack of success is involved.

[jr-translation]

There are several things to consider. Some have been discussed but I think there are still some more options and things to consider.

When you hire for an hourly project you always risk that the freelancer will need more time. You can limit the weekly hours or pause the contract, so the freelancer cannot log more time for the time being. Generally the rule is that you pay for the logged time if the time logged properly: automatic tracking with screenshots that all show that the freelancer was actually working on your project, is the activity level high and is there a proper description? If not, you could dispute the time.

How much money are we talking about? Some freelancers promiss more than they can do for some  money and hope they can somehow do the job. The honest way would be the decline any payment but with the hourly payment protection it is sometimes the client that looses.

Is the freelancer able to complete the task at all or do you have to hire someone else? Maybe you can create a fixed rate contract to finish the task?

Remember you always finish a contract with a feedback. Don't use it as a thread but keep it in mind as well. You can rate deadlines, quality, skills and cooperation. Once money is paid you will be asked to leave an honest public feedback.

[bobafett999]

What is the matter with all these seconds counting clients?  The freelancer gave you an "estimate"....last time I checked estimate was defined as "rough calculation or approximation". 

It seems some buuers believe estimate as a hard number....and get upset if some one does not bring your meal in estimated fifteen minutes the waiter told you it would take.

Did you ask how much longer it would take to finish the task?

Per Upwork rules on hourly jobs it is the time someone spends on your project, not whether they finished it or not.  So by rules you have to pay.

Your Car mechanic analogy is rubbish.  Most mechanic shop work on 'fixed price'  to fix a clearly identified issue.

[reinierb]

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@Prashant P wrote:

What is the matter with all these seconds counting clients?  The freelancer gave you an "estimate"....last time I checked estimate was defined as "rough calculation or approximation". 

It seems some buuers believe estimate as a hard number....and get upset if some one does not bring your meal in estimated fifteen minutes the waiter told you it would take.

Did you ask how much longer it would take to finish the task?

Per Upwork rules on hourly jobs it is the time someone spends on your project, not whether they finished it or not.  So by rules you have to pay.

Your Car mechanic analogy is rubbish.  Most mechanic shop work on 'fixed price'  to fix a clearly identified issue.

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 While this may or may not apply to most or even some mechanical repair shops, it most certainly does not apply to body repair shops.

[bobafett999]

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@Reinier B wrote:

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@Prashant P wrote:

Your Car mechanic analogy is rubbish.  Most mechanic shop work on 'fixed price'  to fix a clearly identified issue.

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 While this may or may not apply to most or even some mechanical repair shops, it most certainly does not apply to body repair shops.

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 Your response adds no value to my earlier comment.  The operative word was "MOST".  You seem to relish trolling my posts and nitpicking and writing replies that does not mean nothing.

[reinierb]

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@Prashant P wrote:

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@Reinier B wrote:

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@Prashant P wrote:

Your Car mechanic analogy is rubbish.  Most mechanic shop work on 'fixed price'  to fix a clearly identified issue.

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 While this may or may not apply to most or even some mechanical repair shops, it most certainly does not apply to body repair shops.

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 Your response adds no value to my earlier comment.  The operative word was "MOST".  You seem to relish trolling my posts and nitpicking and writing replies that does not mean nothing.

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 I was pointing out that you, personally, have no idea how mechanics work. There is almost never a fixed rate and very few issues are clearly defined or identified, which is why you will only ever get a price and time estimate from a repair shop. I should know- I was in the car repair trade for nearly 40 years. 

About the trolling you accuse me of- you should consider yourself honoured if ever I choose to troll you.

As for nitpicking; you make it so very easy for us to nitpick that it is hard for some of us to pass up the many opportunities you present us with on an almost daily basis.     

[bobafett999]

Reinier:  Your comments would have been valid and add to my knowledge base as comming from an Expert if I had used the word "ALL" rather than "MOST". 

In 50 years of me driving  cars and having them repaired, the shop tells me you need a muffler and it will cost your $XX.  You have a leaky valve and it will cost you $YY.  You need a transmission fluid change it will cost you $ZZ1 if only fluid change or $ZZ2 if you need filter also.

May be from where you are from the mechanics quote hourly rate, but where I live it is price by "Item" that is fixed.  I don't know how the body shops here work.

Yes I am honored that you find it useful to troll my posts and nitpick.