Enlightened Self-Interest

[resultsassoc]

A freelancer I have used for a couple of jobs, a few hundred dollars, sent me files with malware. He's in a lesser-developed country and with Upwork's fees he has to work most of a day to buy antivirus software. I told him to buy it and send me a bill.

Any other clients out there who understand why we in developed countries need to do this sort of thing in our own interest? Those who know me best will testify that I have little empathy and have a terminal case of GOM (Grumpy Old Man). This isn't kindness, it's pure self-interest. If each developed-country client helped a single lesser-developed-country freelancer with a nominal hand up, then freelancing could be a community.

Bottom-feeders need not apply. Not that you've gotten this far in reading the post.

[kamalmsharma]

Hi Bill,

I appreciate your thoughts and kindness (especially being a new freelancer and coming from not so developed country  )

The planet needs more and more people like you. 

Regards,

Kamal

[petra_r]

Apart from the fact that many very good anti malware programs are free, clients could pay their freelancers decent rates so their freelancers can buy whatever program they need themselves, rather than resorting to random acts of "charity" and then patting themselves on the back on a public forum for it.

[resultsassoc]

Petra,

How sad that instead of seeing an opportunity to contribute to a discussion of freelancers and clients as a community, you saw yet another opportunity to spew snark with a side dish of spite.

You imply I’m underpaying and/or exploiting freelancers. Please either identify them, or state explicitly that you have no evidence of that. Failing that, please ask that your unhelpful post be deleted.

[wendy_writes]

GOM - aka Bill - I only wish at least a few clients read your post. Fair and equitable pay should never be based on location.

[resultsassoc]

I pay based on skills, track record, and value of the final result. I've spent $13K online and never hired anyone online for less than his/her requested amount. I've turned down a few because of high price, many more because the price was too low. If the freelancer didn't think she was worth much, I'm not going to argue. I nearly turned down my current website developer/maintainer/expert because she woefully under-priced her work. Fortunately, I took a closer look. She's worth twice what I pay her, but she says it's her standard rate and she won't increase it until her standard rate increases. She's the business owner, her decision. To compensate I recommend her to clients and friends, and pay her to solve some <$250 clients' problems for them.

My two current UW freelancers are being paid more than they requested. Selfishly, I want to be sure both remain available. My go-to freelancers on another board are paid what they ask, and understand that each task is a new job to be priced as negotiated. They say they'll tell me when they need more money.

Anyone not smart enough to figure out how to bypass the various time-tracking thingamajigs isn't smart enough to work for me, so I never require tracked time, and have never seen a screen shot. One of my non-joboard freelancers is a disabled veteran, and I pay him about twice what his work is worth. He's refused an offer of private financial assistance, and the arrangement works for both of us. Anyone deciding that's a self-congratulatory pat on the back can kiss my assumptions.

[prestonhunter · Accepted solution]

re: "Fair and equitable pay should never be based on location."

I agree.

I would say that Upwork absolutely can not make this happen, however.

This needs to come primarily from the freelancers themselves.

I have worked with plenty of freelancers from less expensive locales who have excellent skills and who ask for appropriate pay. And by "appropriate" I mean they ask for pay appropriate for their skill level and their place in the market.

I could not care less about their location or the fact that what I am paying them might be deemed wildly inappropriate by some of their neighbors who might think such earnings are exorbitant.

I think this principle also need to apply to freelancers who live in more expensive locations and yet charge relatively low fees, knowing their limitations. We need to allow them freedom to do so, and respect their decisions as well.

[resultsassoc]

Preston, every word is worth reading.

I was introduced to another wrinkle in the issue several years ago. I had a JV in South Africa with a Zimbabwe-born partner, and it became necessary to establish a research center in Africa. I established a center in Nigeria and paid professional developed-country wages. It was an abject failure. My partner flew to Nigeria, fired everyone and hired a new staff. Then it was successful.

My partner's criticism was blunt: I stupidly thought paying developed-country wages would attract talent and get results. Instead it attracted highly-skilled people who thought I didn't know what I was doing by paying so much, so they didn't have to work to get paid. It would be convenient if he had been wrong, but he was right. I grossly overpaid for the local market and was rewarded with crap. He measured the local market and offered slightly above-market pay and got results.

Remote work, by its nature, is global and should have global pricing. Overpaying in a local market is justified on principle, just doesn't always work in fact.

[prestonhunter]

Bill, I appreciate everything you have shared here in this thread.

It is all worthwhile insight.

[reinierb]

---

@Bill H wrote:

Preston, every word is worth reading.

I was introduced to another wrinkle in the issue several years ago. I had a JV in South Africa with a Zimbabwe-born partner, and it became necessary to establish a research center in Africa. I established a center in Nigeria and paid professional developed-country wages. It was an abject failure. My partner flew to Nigeria, fired everyone and hired a new staff. Then it was successful.

My partner's criticism was blunt: I stupidly thought paying developed-country wages would attract talent and get results. Instead it attracted highly-skilled people who thought I didn't know what I was doing by paying so much, so they didn't have to work to get paid. It would be convenient if he had been wrong, but he was right. I grossly overpaid for the local market and was rewarded with crap. He measured the local market and offered slightly above-market pay and got results.

Remote work, by its nature, is global and should have global pricing. Overpaying in a local market is justified on principle, just doesn't always work in fact.

---

 If Africa is the local market, nothing will work as expected.