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7bd0d548
Community Member

Excessive Disputes

I got a notification that my account will betaken  action on my account due to excessive disputes. 

 

"How's this fair to us if the freelancers themselves declared that they can do it hence agreed, accepted the offer and tried to accomplish it but failed due to lack of competences or skill ??"
 
It's an unfair scolding from upwork's side regarding this case. Because we have tried our best in terms of making the job description to be as clear as possible, hire the most potential talent, then if the attempt failed then what do upwork's expect us to do? Because if it's a fix rate, then it means it's paid based on successive attempts.
 
See here, I even had to make a post in the community, relevant to upwork's scolding notification, because the freelancers themself failed to accomplish the job https://community.upwork.com/t5/Clients/Python/m-p/1247764#M90641.
 
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Above all, so if a hired freelancer, just left without a word after charging nor giving me any of his work ?. Then what should I do ??!. Let them leave and take my money ???
 
If a freelancer was charging while not even working for us, so If I end contract with this guy, then ask for refund, would that be considered as dispute ?!?! so I can't file a dispute and refund ??! how does this fair ??!  
 
88 REPLIES 88
prestonhunter
Community Member

First of all, let me emphasize that I am on your side.

I want you to achieve your goals.

 

But as a general concept:

Clients should never be involved in disputes.

 

A dispute indicates refund thinking on the part of a client.

Refund thinking hurts clients.

 

This IS NOT ABOUT THE FREELANCERS.

 

This is about the client.

 

Disputes represent self-defeating behavior the part of the client.

 

A client with multiple disputes is putting the needs of others ahead of his own needs. When I hear about a client who gets into disputes instead of releasing payments to freelancers, I think it sounds like the client was trying to balance the karma or freelancers by making sure they don't get paid money they don't deserve.

 

It is better for a client to put his own needs first and simply release money to undeserving freelancers and then fire them. Do not try to help them.

 

An effective client fires everyone whose work he doesn't love. He doesn't ask for revisions when it is clear that somebody is not up to the task. He doesn't waste his time trying to get money from freelancers. He does not owe underperforming freelancers any more of his time or energy.

 

As a client, I choose a more self-serving, more effective strategy, which is to never dispute.

 


Preston H wrote:

It is better for a client to put his own needs first and simply release money to undeserving freelancers and then fire them. Do not try to help them.


Sorry, I can not understand you. Because the way I see it, you are trying to have the clients to release the fund if the service / product was not even delivered, if so then this is absolutely a scamming attempt. So how can clients consider this as a safe platform ?

 

As like any other normal human, they want to get what they have paid for. You can be hired and declared your self to able to code 'asdf', but then you were actually incapable of coding 'asdf' so you give the client code 'zxcv'. Then the client disputed, that's what mostly happens in the dispute case.

 


Preston H wrote:

An effective client fires everyone whose work he doesn't love. He doesn't ask for revisions when it is clear that somebody is not up to the task. He doesn't waste his time trying to get money from freelancers. He does not owe underperforming freelancers any more of his time or energy.

So if a freelancer you asked to code 'asdf' but then he gave you 'zxcv', you were seriously supposed to release the fund ?? 

 

The problem here is, freelancers can state whatever they want in their  portfolio despite the fact that they are incapable of doing for what they've stated they can do. So how's this client's fault if the client got tricked to this scheme ??

 

So, the real problem here is that, they can NOT even do the codes (or can NOT work on it) because of incompetencies and unskilled problem. So a fixed rate job, is a good way to do test pay on freelancers if you need freelancers whom are ought to work on long term.

Ely, if you want the freelancer to suffer for deceiving you, then pay for the milestone, end the contract, and leave professional feedback about the experience. Those dollars, when attached to your feedback, will have significant impact on the JSS. In contrast, disputing and not paying has little to zero effect on the JSS.

 

The feedback must be professional, else other clients will review the feedback on the FL's work history and brush it off as the result of a petty/vindictive/unscrupulous customer.

You have a good point here, so when I end contract with him after he charged for nothing, I should not click ask for refund ??

I think a couple of dollars charged is fine for this to happens to reduce the JSS. Now I know why, the JSS would not be reduced if the money is refunded.  So, these idea should be noted toward all clients, so then all clients can see the correct JSS. But problem here is, I am sure most clients will file for refund in such a case hence won't care about the JSS be reduced which will hurts the next clients.

JSS is weighted by revenue. If the revenue on the job is small compared to the freelancer's earnings in the past two years, then it will have little effect.

re: "But problem here is, I am sure most clients will file for refund in such a case hence won't care about the JSS be reduced which will hurts the next clients."

 

You are putting the needs of strangers ahead of your own needs.

 

You should put yourself first.

 

You should not focus on the needs of other clients and the needs of freelancers.

 

Which is what you are doing when you worry so much about a freelancer's JSS and when you worry so much about paying for low-quality work.

 

Paying for work that you can't use, and not worrying about it... these are keys to success for effective clients.

Now I know why, the JSS would not be reduced if the money is refunded.  

 

That's not true. You can't leave public feedback if you never paid or they made a full refund, but private feedback still impacts JSS (much more than public).

Some hired freelancers I've seen has refunded or canceled work without refund, still gets a 100% JSS. Now that's why I think and said upwork's algorithm is not good enough.


Ely B wrote:

Some hired freelancers I've seen has refunded or canceled work without refund, still gets a 100% JSS. Now that's why I think and said upwork's algorithm is not good enough.


That's because other clients liked their work; it sounds like you were the exception.

100% doesn't mean what you think it means. There are a number of variables involved in determining JSS.


Jonathan L wrote:

Ely, if you want the freelancer to suffer for deceiving you, then pay for the milestone, end the contract, and leave professional feedback about the experience. Those dollars, when attached to your feedback, will have significant impact on the JSS. In contrast, disputing and not paying has little to zero effect on the JSS.

 

The feedback must be professional, else other clients will review the feedback on the FL's work history and brush it off as the result of a petty/vindictive/unscrupulous customer.


I always leave a professional feedback, if good work, then give good but if bad, I will not give 5 stars to save and help the next client's experience. So why am I beeing scolded here ??! is that against upwork's TOS ?. Was I suppose to just always give 5 star feedback in any kinds of experience ??.

 

---------------------------------

 

Please read this notification from upwork and my reply toward her :

 

  • Be respectful in your communications with all members of the Upwork community
I have done this to them, but seems that's not the case or the reason
  • Ensure that job postings are detailed and include a set scope of work
I have done this, but seems that's not the case or the reason
  • Communicate frequently with freelancers during all phases of a project
I always do, but some of them just left like this guy.
  • Set clear expectations regarding delivery dates prior to beginning the project
I have done this, but seems that's not the case or the reason
  • Review all submitted work within a reasonable timeframe, releasing milestone payments when work for each milestone has been completed and reviewed
I have done this, but seems that's not the case nor the reason. But last time you guys were suspending me while I was trying to release the money to some of them thus causing delay.
  • Update your freelancer immediately if the scope of work must be changed; agree to a new list of milestones and payment amounts for any new, altered, or additional work before proceeding
I barely change my work scope after hired because I want to play fair with them.
 
-------------------------------
 
I would appreciate if the upwork's team member provide with past real examples.

re: "So if a freelancer you asked to code 'asdf' but then he gave you 'zxcv', you were seriously supposed to release the fund ?? "

 

Yes.

Exactly.

 

Because I don't care about the freelancers like you do.

I am not the freelancer's pastor or rabbi or uncle or teacher or mentor.

 

I don't want to help the freelancer be a better freelancer or a better person.

I just want to get my work done.

So I focus on the freelancers who do great work for me and I fire the rest.

 

If a freelancer is incompetent, I just fire them. That means releasing escrow money so I can quickly be rid of them. But mostly I use hourly contracts, so I have no money tied up in escrow.

 

Of course if I hire freelancers using a fixed-price contract, it is with a small amount of money for a small task, so they have an opportunity to demonstrate their ability.

 

A client should never fund an escrow payment and think they can get money back. That is refund thinking, and that hurts the client.


Preston H wrote:

A client should never fund an escrow payment and think they can get money back. That is refund thinking, and that hurts the client.


I never do to think hire to refund, what a waste of time.  I don't care about the freelancers either, I just care wheather they get the job done. But I do care where my money is spent on, every dollars, small or big. If it was spent on something that is not useable, then I will not want to spend it. Will that be against upwork TOS ?? how's that going to be a burden and cost for upwork ??.

 

I always evaluate carefully the freelancers and conduct interview process on them as best as I could. But this case raise, because of the python skill which I have too less knowledge, hence many of them failed because I failed to conduct proper screening on that skill set. 

https://community.upwork.com/t5/Clients/Python/m-p/1247764#M90641

 

Eventually now, I have successfully retained many of them because I have got some good replies on that forum hence I learned more about python skill, yet upwork is complaining about it like I did something bad.

 

 

yofazza
Community Member

The idea of hiring more than 1 and fire bad freelancers in this unsafe platform is actually good, but could be tricky on small projects.

 

I think you do need to take some loss first, while your aim is to find freelancers you can trust (good work with reasoanable price) and don't lose them.

 

Basically don't keep looking for new freelancers. I can imagine a large portion of them here will dissapoint you. People talk almost everyday in the other forum about floods of incompetent freelancers etc.

7bd0d548
Community Member

Yes I was doing exactly what you are saying. The real problem here is upwork has said 'These activities strain Upwork’s resources and make it difficult for us to continue supporting your use of the platform.' I am sure by that mean said is that, upwork bear's some sort of cost if we ought to dispute freelancers.

 

"Above all, so if a hired freelancer, just left without a word after charging nor giving me any of his work ?. Then what should I do ??!. Let them leave and take my money ???"

Think of it that upwork must pay their employee's time with hourly. So, the more dispute, hence; the more time and cost they need to spend for me. It seems the real core issue here. If so, Upwork's  staff should not be wasting time with such a freelancers if they are disputed hence they should just release the fund if the freelancers is not responding/responsive.


Ely B wrote:
 

Think of it that upwork must pay their employee's time with hourly. So, the more dispute, hence; the more time and cost they need to spend for me. It seems the real core issue here. If so, Upwork's  staff should not be wasting time with such a freelancers if they are disputed hence they should just release the fund if the freelancers is not responding/responsive.


Ely, the logical extreme of your suggestion is that a Client can get a lot (or all) of their work for free by filing many disputes in order to get onto Upwork's "just release it to Client because they are too much hassle" list.

It won't be something valuable for free if the work/code is useless to us.

 

So if a freelancer was charging while not even working for us, hence If I end contract with this guy, then ask for refund, would that be considered as dispute ?!?! so I can't file a dispute and refund ??! how does this fair ??!  

Will that be considered as earning free work from the client's side ??! That freelancer has been proofen was charging as he was going over to irrelevant things to the job, such as browsing on job postings looking for more jobs, observing personal emails, etc. What  am I supposed to do about these kinds of guys ?! . How do I feels this platform is a not a rip off and scammy after seeing these kinds of case ?

 

If you treated any clients like this, many will sure will not trust this platform because they can just go to any third party forums or social media and start talking about these kinds of things on upwork's unethiqual missetreatments and malpactices which is bad business for upwork self.

Ely, the only way that such a high percentage of your hires result in these poor experiences is if you are generally bad at hiring. That could range from inability to separate good FL from bad FL to an inability to attract quality freelancers.

 

Not too long ago, Jennifer remarked that you have a reputation among freelancers because your hiring history is full of low-paying jobs for which you left angry feedback. I'm inclined to believe her, based on your Community posting history. In case you don't already know: every freelancer who views your job post can view your entire hiring history, including feedback, total payment, and pay rates.

 

 

 

Upwork has the problem that too many low-skill, low-quality, or scammy freelancers are on the platform. Your complaints are not going to make Upwork fix that any faster, especially now that they are deciding that you are more of an expense then a revenue source. So, the only effective action that you can take is to change how you operate. You can't change the marketplaces. You can't change the concierge services. All you can do is change how you operate as a business, to locate and attract  and keep good talent.

Buddy, I am not the ones who's complaining here but Upwork is.

 

I have already found solution, regarding on failed hiring process, on my other postings from the other freelancer's replies whom you perceived as 'not important' replies. https://community.upwork.com/t5/Clients/Python/m-p/1248311#M90685

 

I even hired a freelancer, then I have paid him DID NOT DISPUTED, then I left 3 stars (whereas he perceived as bad feedback) because he failed to accomplish successfully on the second milestone yet he gave me 5 stars !!!!!. So he was not happy with the feedback, hence; eventually refunded all the money I've paid to him !. So who's fault is that really ?! why is it my problem ?!.


Jonathan L wrote:

 

Ely, the logical extreme of your suggestion is that a Client can get a lot (or all) of their work for free by filing many disputes in order to get onto Upwork's "just release it to Client because they are too much hassle" list.


If there's no relevant 'excessive dispute TOS', so  I took sometimes, going over this and made an assumption in my head because upwork will not tell me the real flagged reason and always keeps such things privately confidential.

 

So I kind of assume, the reason upwork has scolded and flagged me on this case, it was seems because of a freelancer, a top rated 100% JSS freelancer, whom I hired hence he was successful in the first milestone (contract 1). But because I had a lot of task, so I hired him on another contract at the same time hence he succeeded also on the the first milestone (contract 2). So there was 2 contracts under him over me.

 

He was successive on the first milestone (contract 1), which was a very easy job, so I released the fund. But then failed on the second milestone (contract 1). I kept paying him bonus to motivate him and to retain him to finish the second milestone (contract 1), because I believe he could succeed on the job. But eventually he failed. Then he start scolding and insulting me like as if it's my fault. So I did not gave him 5 stars but he still is giving me 5 stars. Then he ended all the 2 contracts refunded, hence he gave me bad reviews on the other contract. 

 

It does not stops there, not just he hacked into my work sheet and tried to destroy it, he wanted to get rid all of my feedbacks away from him, hence he refunded all the money that I paid him,  but yet I still am keeping the milestone 1 of the 2 contracts from him. So I reported him for hacking but at the same time it seems he has reported me also for keeping the works from him. If that is the case, what am I suppose to do ?!?.

 

Was I suppose to throw away his work and hire someone else and eventually wasted my time ?! Why is it my fault in this case knowing the fact that he was trying to circumvent upwork's system ?!???

 

Please tell me the relevant TOS here regarding this case. Thank You !

 


Ely B wrote:

Jonathan L wrote:

 

Ely, the logical extreme of your suggestion is that a Client can get a lot (or all) of their work for free by filing many disputes in order to get onto Upwork's "just release it to Client because they are too much hassle" list.


If there's no relevant 'excessive dispute TOS', so  I took sometimes, going over this and made an assumption in my head because upwork will not tell me the real flagged reason and always keeps such things privately confidential.

 

So I kind of assume, the reason upwork has scolded and flagged me on this case, it was seems because of a freelancer, a top rated 100% JSS freelancer, whom I hired hence he was successful in the first milestone (contract 1). But because I had a lot of task, so I hired him on another contract at the same time hence he succeeded also on the the first milestone (contract 2). So there was 2 contracts under him over me.

 

He was successive on the first milestone (contract 1), which was a very easy job, so I released the fund. But then failed on the second milestone (contract 1). I kept paying him bonus to motivate him and to retain him to finish the second milestone (contract 1), because I believe he could succeed on the job. But eventually he failed. Then he start scolding and insulting me like as if it's my fault. So I did not gave him 5 stars but he still is giving me 5 stars. Then he ended all the 2 contracts refunded, hence he gave me bad reviews on the other contract. 

 

It does not stops there, not just he hacked into my work sheet and tried to destroy it, he wanted to get rid all of my feedbacks away from him, hence he refunded all the money that I paid him,  but yet I still am keeping the milestone 1 of the 2 contracts from him. So I reported him for hacking but at the same time it seems he has reported me also for keeping the works from him. If that is the case, what am I suppose to do ?!?.

 

Was I suppose to throw away his work and hire someone else and eventually wasted my time ?! Why is it my fault in this case knowing the fact that he was trying to circumvent upwork's system ?!???

 

Please tell me the relevant TOS here regarding this case. Thank You !

 


This episode with this specific freelancer is but a single instance in your Upwork history. Upwork is not making an Excessive Disputes determination on a single instance. It is based on your entire platform history.

 

Regarding the instance itself:

  • If your claim is true, then the FL behaved extremely immorally when they hacked your account, regardless of the interactions that they had with you prior to that decision. I hope that Upwork will investigate and take appropriate action.
  • According to Section 6 of the Optional Service Contract Terms (which is a misnomer, because you agree to them by default), you own the IP to any work product for which you paid. That transferral is irrevocable, according to the ToS. A freelancer's unsolicited refunding of your payments does not revoke your IP ownership.


Jonathan L wrote:


This episode with this specific freelancer is but a single instance in your Upwork history. Upwork is not making an Excessive Disputes determination on a single instance. It is based on your entire platform history.


=> I need to know what are my Upwork history considerably bad. Here's the list of my recent flags or bad notification I'm getting from upwork.

 

- Excessive Dispute

- Direct contact 

https://community.upwork.com/t5/Clients/Direct-Contact-Policy-Violation-Flaws/m-p/1255160#M91121

 

Above all, they are all has some missunderstanding and unintentional error. But upwork seems indicating I am not a good person here.

 

Refund thinking hurts clients.

 

Refund thinking has hurt you.

 

Refund thinking has made it impossible for you to succeed in achieving your goals.

 

If you had proactively decided to never ask for a refund, and never file a dispute, no matter what, you would have saved time and money. You would have been able to attract and retain quality freelancers. Any you would not have had Upwork identify you as a drain on resources.

 

Effective, successful clients don't dispute. Instead they monitor a freelancer's work, especially early on, and if they don't love the work, they fire the freelancer and assign tasks to other members of the team.


Preston H wrote:

 

Effective, successful clients don't dispute. Instead they monitor a freelancer's work, especially early on, and if they don't love the work, they fire the freelancer and assign tasks to other members of the team.


I have retained many good freelancers already eventhough many has been disputed, hence bad ones got disputed.

 

Yes refund hurting me because it's wasting my time. But then, because I hired 10 but 5 are  successive and good ones hence retained, I gained something out of that also. So because of that, I may not be disputing as many freelancer as used to because of this. As well as because of the python's issue here : https://community.upwork.com/t5/Clients/Python/m-p/1248311#M90685; whereas; I've self taught from the freelancer's solution here.

 

Would be any of these activities be against upwork TOS ? Please send me the relevant TOS link. 

re: "Would be any of these activities be against upwork TOS ? Please send me the relevant TOS link."

 

I am not saying that you are violating Upwork TOS.

 

I am saying that refund thinking hurts clients.

 

You said when you hire, you don't plan to dispute.

 

I believe you.

 

But you still hold onto disputes as a possibility.

 

That constitutes "refund thinking."

 

The way to over overcome the harm that comes from refind thinking is to remove the possibility from your mind by proactively deciding to ask for a refund.

 

Decide that you won't dispute no matter how badly a freelancer does. This will help you to make more effective decisions about how to set up contracts. Instead of setting up a $1000 contract for 100 modules, you can set up a $10 for one module. Then see how these six freelancers do on the task. Choose to continue working with the best, and fire the rest after one module.

 

Or hire only one freelancer to do one module. If you don't love his work, fire him. You only spent $10. Hire another freelancer. Continue until you find one whose work you love.

 

Don't try to get money back if they fail. That just wastes your time. And getting money back is a gamble. Most clients who try to get money back end up unable to do so.


Preston H wrote:

 

Decide that you won't dispute no matter how badly a freelancer does. This will help you to make more effective decisions about how to set up contracts. Instead of setting up a $1000 contract for 100 modules, you can set up a $10 for one module. Then see how these six freelancers do on the task. Choose to continue working with the best, and fire the rest after one module.

 

Or hire only one freelancer to do one module. If you don't love his work, fire him. You only spent $10. Hire another freelancer. Continue until you find one whose work you love.

 

Don't try to get money back if they fail. That just wastes your time. And getting money back is a gamble. Most clients who try to get money back end up unable to do so.


You have a very good point, as I did all of that, except trying to get my money back. But instead of $10, it was actually like $100 from my side and it's at least $1000 contract or more for long term also. Since the targeted freelancers won't accept $10, that's where the problem is.

 


Preston H wrote:

 

Don't try to get money back if they fail. That just wastes your time. And getting money back is a gamble. Most clients who try to get money back end up unable to do so.


I don't know why this happens, so your saying most clients are DISHONEST. But in my case, most of the dispute, I got my money back, in fact I think in all case, 100% case !. Because I play fair and honesty in any business transaction. I don't do short term business.

 

So, it's the freelancers who's are being DISHONEST right ??!!

 

 

re: "I don't know why this happens, so your saying most clients are DISHONEST."

 

I would never say that.

 

Most Upwork clients are honest.

Most Upwork clients are wonderful.

 

There are SOME Upwork clients who have abused the escrow system and who have abused the refund/dispute options.

 

That SMALL PERCENTAGE of clients who have abused these mechanisms have ruined them for the rest of the clients.

It is no longer acceptable to trust client refund requests. All client refund should now be rejected by freelancers because so much abuse has occurred.

 

Good, effective clients should proactively plan to never request a refund, no matter what. Instead, fire underperforming freelancers rather than continuing to pay them money in the hopes that they will magically become better, or with the hope that you can get money back.

 

Clients should plan to never get money back. Freelancers should not trust client-requested refunds.


Preston H wrote:

 

Don't try to get money back if they fail. That just wastes your time. And getting money back is a gamble. Most clients who try to get money back end up unable to do so.


So there's no client's protection in this platform ?

I am very sure, client's protection or freelancer's protection is probably one of the biggest reason for any or every users in freelancing site to actually make hiring or working on it. 

 


Preston H wrote:

 

Decide that you won't dispute no matter how badly a freelancer does. This will help you to make more effective decisions about how to set up contracts. Instead of setting up a $1000 contract for 100 modules, you can set up a $10 for one module. Then see how these six freelancers do on the task. Choose to continue working with the best, and fire the rest after one module.

 

Or hire only one freelancer to do one module. If you don't love his work, fire him. You only spent $10. Hire another freelancer. Continue until you find one whose work you love.

In fact, you are the only here whom understand my position very well because you, yourself is the only active client in the forum.

 

I got your point and understood very well, yes, I do have a contract beyond > $1000, but as I divided into 10 (but you said divide by 100, which are blatanly too much) then it becomes $100 each. But also, I have been doing all of that to avoid dispute in a larger amount of cash. Hence; I've already did that, yet many freelancers here unbelievably are still complaining as if that's too small. 

 

But as you can see in my many other postings, freelancers are complaining to me as if my contracts are very cheap. So how much money is, always be irrelevant, there's always client lost even so much more cash here.

 

So here, in this thread, it's all about skills that the freelancer lied about. They agreed, committed, started working on it, then failed, either they dispute or just left without a word.


Preston H wrote:

 

Effective, successful clients don't dispute. Instead they monitor a freelancer's work, especially early on, and if they don't love the work, they fire the freelancer and assign tasks to other members of the team.


Please bear in mind, in most case, I don't file dispute nor asked for refund. I barely clicked dispute.

 

Here's are most case what happened :

 

1. Freelancer after agreed, understood the work instruction, stated capable of doing, hence start working then delivered unusable works, hence; I asked them to modify it until I can actually use it. They either don't want to bother or not competence to finish it. So they just left or disputed the money.

=> From now, I am still fine for this to just pay and release it because they took effort in. Despite that will be a TOS violation in terms of client's protection, because I am worried if I don't do so, that if I would always get bullied and bashed off the platform. 

 

2. Freelancer just left the project, irresponsive (or never responded anymore) or never even comes back to the platform anymore without ever giving any actual works, so if I clicked end contract and ask for refund, then they may dispute it. Literally, disputing over nothing. Yet I lost time.

=> So even though the freelancer left without a word nor submitted anywork, hence; I still must pay because I can no longer be disputed ??!.
 
3. They don't like our team, since we assembled a team for the freelancers, hence; they may be harshing or being agressive with each other but not with me. Then they left, submited 50% of the work (still unuseable) and disputed.
=> From now, I am still fine for this to just pay and release it because they took effort in. Despite that will be a TOS violation in terms of client's protection, because I am worried if I don't do so, that if I would always get bullied and bashed off the platform. 
 
There may be some more examples but I can't recall.

Afterall, I care about the long-going of upwork continuous existence, because we (everyone here) don't want upwork's resource to be continuously strained off.

7bd0d548
Community Member


Radia L wrote:

People talk almost everyday in the other forum about floods of incompetent freelancers etc.


Yes you are right !

https://community.upwork.com/t5/Clients/Punish-irresponsible-freelancers-for-wasting-clients-time/m-...

 

I really want to know why is upwork scolding me as if it's my fault or like broken a TOS or something ??! which I obviously did not do !. There has been more than 1 client is complaining like this so why does not upwork thinks it's not my fault ?!.

 

Someone please share me relevant TOS regarding to prohibition on 'Excessive Disputes' because I'd like to read it.

Thank You !.

 

re: "Someone please share me relevant TOS regarding to prohibition on 'Excessive Disputes' because I'd like to read it."

 

Upwork most definitely does not need anything to be written in TOS in order to take action.

 

Upwork is a private company. It has the right to do business with who it wants to do business with and it can certainly expel a client for breaking its business model.

 

Like the all-you-can-eat restaurant thst tells a customer he can't come back. Everyone is welcome no everything is fine. The restaurant turns a nice profit. But then there's this one guy who comes in and what he does is simply ridiculous. So, yeah... they tell him he has had enough. They're totally losing money on him. They're losing patience. They ask him to leave or ask him not to come back.

 

(Note that I am speaking GENERALLY. I am not comparing YOU to that customer at the restaurant, and I don't want you to be expelled from Upwork, of course.)


Preston H wrote:

Like the all-you-can-eat restaurant thst tells a customer he can't come back. Everyone is welcome no everything is fine. The restaurant turns a nice profit. But then there's this one guy who comes in and what he does is simply ridiculous. So, yeah... they tell him he has had enough. They're totally losing money on him.


I see this totally clears out my mind and thank you very much for your explanation... !

 

Upwork said "We occasionally review accounts showing signs of unusual activity". So hiring as many freelancers as possible then eventually dispute almost half or more of them and keeps/retained few of them, hence; why that would be considerably as an "unusuall activity"? since we just started hiring new guys this year while in the previous years we've retained few freelancers.

 

But then problem also raises when upwork said :

"These activities strain Upwork’s resources"

Now I understand that the disputing process has taken out too much of their resources most likely financial. I would really want to support upwork's existence also for the sake of all, but I do not have budget to pay freelancers as if they can just leave without any responds while take my money for good (just one example of a case). I would need a solution for that because freelancer's behavior is not entirely under my control.

 

Now my question is, how these advices below will guarantee further that those freelancers would successfully accomplished the job ?  :

  • Be respectful in your communications with all members of the Upwork community
  • Ensure that job postings are detailed and include a set scope of work
  • Communicate frequently with freelancers during all phases of a project
  • Set clear expectations regarding delivery dates prior to beginning the project
  • Review all submitted work within a reasonable timeframe, releasing milestone payments when work for each milestone has been completed and reviewed
  • Update your freelancer immediately if the scope of work must be changed; agree to a new list of milestones and payment amounts for any new, altered, or additional work before proceeding

Because I am sure that I've done almost all of that from my side as adviced, hence; I believe it's more with skill coherent with the job's instruction related or the freelancer's professionalism behavior themself.

 


Ely B wrote:

Upwork said "We occasionally review accounts showing signs of unusual activity". So hiring as many freelancers as possible then eventually dispute almost half or more of them and keeps/retained few of them, hence; why that would be considerably as an "unusuall activity"? since we just started hiring new guys this year while in the previous years we've retained few freelancers.


I can't speak for Upwork, but my guess is that the "unusual activity" is "hiring many freelancers and eventually disputing almost half or more of them"

 


Ely B wrote:

But then problem also raises when upwork said :

"These activities strain Upwork’s resources"

Now I understand that the disputing process has taken out too much of their resources most likely financial. I would really want to support upwork's existence also for the sake of all, but I do not have budget to pay freelancers as if they can just leave without any responds while take my money for good (just one example of a case). I would need a solution for that because freelancer's behavior is not entirely under my control.


Let us know if you find a reputable company that makes you those guarantees and consistently enforces those guarantees. That would be lovely.

I do not work for Upwork. What follows is my opinion:

 

As a general concept:

if you are a freelancer, then a refund is something that YOU CHOOSE to do.

If YOU as the freelancer have accepted a fixed-price contract and for some reason you can't complete the task, then you need to issue a refund. Very simple. You don't need t discuss this with the client. Just issue the refund if you can't do it.

But if you are a freelancer, and a CLIENT asks for a refund, you should always politlely say no.

 

Refunds are meant for FREELANCERS to give, if they didn't do the work. Refunds are NOT INTENDED to be used by clients who want free money.

If a client hires a freelancer to do a task, and the freelancer puts in their effort to do the task, then the client should release payment. If the client thinks that the task was not done well, that is the client's opinion. If the client thinks that the task wasn't not actually accomplished, that is the client's opinion. The freelancer clicked the Submit button, so the freelancer clearly believes the task WAS done.

Freelancers should definitely strive to satisfy clients. But a client's opinion doesn't mean that a task was not done. Unfortunately for the HONEST CLIENTS, too many client have decided to use refund requests for no reason other than to try to get work done for free and get free money from freelancers. So those DISHONEST clients and scammers (which is NOT what this thread is about, by the way) have basically ruined it for everybody else.

In times past, I might not have been so "black and white" about this. But at this time, I want to be clear: Freelancers should always decline refund requests from clients. And clients should not be asking for refunds when freelancers have submitted work.


It is ACCEPTABLE for a client to click the buttons to request a refund when a freelancer has simply gone missing and hasn't done anything and hasn't clicked the Submit work. If the freelancer is really gone, then the refund request will be granted AUTOMATICALLY after 7 days.

It is NOT OKAY for a client to set up a fixed-price contract and then nitpick about the quality of the freelancer's work or ask for other things to be done and then request a refund even though the freelancer put in the effort do the task.


Preston H wrote:

 

As a general concept:

if you are a freelancer, then a refund is something that YOU CHOOSE to do.

If YOU as the freelancer have accepted a fixed-price contract and for some reason you can't complete the task, then you need to issue a refund. Very simple. You don't need t discuss this with the client. Just issue the refund if you can't do it.


My confusion here is refund vs dispute. In this case, seems upwork scolded and flagged me because of dispute. 

 

 


Preston H wrote:

 

Refunds are meant for FREELANCERS to give, if they didn't do the work. Refunds are NOT INTENDED to be used by clients who want free money.

 

If a client hires a freelancer to do a task, and the freelancer puts in their effort to do the task, then the client should release payment. If the client thinks that the task was not done well, that is the client's opinion. If the client thinks that the task wasn't not actually accomplished, that is the client's opinion. The freelancer clicked the Submit button, so the freelancer clearly believes the task WAS done.


Upwork stated : 

With hourly contracts, a client is paying for a freelancer's time spent working on a contract. Whether they complete the job at hand or to your satisfaction, you are paying for the hours that they have spent working. For example, if they have a job that they successfully complete in 5 hours, you pay them for 5 hours. If they complete 1% of the job you expected in 5 hours, you still need to pay them for 5 hours (as long as they used their time tracker). If at any time you are not satisfied with the freelancer's work, you are able to end the contract.
 
With fixed-price contracts, you are paying for the freelancer's completion of the contract. If you hire a freelancer for a job that should take 5 days but they complete it in 1 day, you still pay them for the entire job. You do not release milestone payments until after you have reviewed the associated work and are satisfied with it. If they do not finish the job, then you do not release payment to them. If they finish the job but you are not happy with it, you can ask them for revisions. If you are still not happy with it, then you do not have to release payment to them.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So my question are :

 

A. If a hired freelancer, just left the job or left the platform without a word after charging nor giving me any of his work ?. Then what should I do ??!. Let them leave and take my money ??. Can I just end contract, and click ask for refund ??

 

B. I hired multipled amounts of freelancers, only some are good one hence retained, but many was ended with an unsatisfied result. So what upwork said VS what you said are contradicting. You said, just release the money if the work is not according to the work instruction. That may still be affordable if it's was just few dollars, maybe I should do that from now if it's less than $20. But will upwork would still be scolding me if the amount was more than $100s ?? Because I've seen another forum where a client lost to dispute/mediation more than $20K. I understand upwork can not bear the cost of disputing service, but if a client loss this much, then wouldn't the client should be taken looked over also ?

 

 


Preston H wrote:


Freelancers should definitely strive to satisfy clients. But a client's opinion doesn't mean that a task was not done. Unfortunately for the HONEST CLIENTS, too many client have decided to use refund requests for no reason other than to try to get work done for free and get free money from freelancers. So those DISHONEST clients and scammers (which is NOT what this thread is about, by the way) have basically ruined it for everybody else.


C. I understand very well, so how do upwork perceives me at this stage, honest or dishonest ? If dishonest, why and how come ? Because I have track record of releasing the paymemnts and met my satisfaction. prnt.sc/H38aY_Rr3ADT

 

 


Preston H wrote:



If a client hires a freelancer to do a task, and the freelancer puts in their effort to do the task, then the client should release payment. If the client thinks that the task was not done well, that is the client's opinion. If the client thinks that the task wasn't not actually accomplished, that is the client's opinion. The freelancer clicked the Submit button, so the freelancer clearly believes the task WAS done.
---------
In times past, I might not have been so "black and white" about this. But at this time, I want to be clear: Freelancers should always decline refund requests from clients. And clients should not be asking for refunds when freelancers have submitted work.

--------
It is NOT OKAY for a client to set up a fixed-price contract and then nitpick about the quality of the freelancer's work or ask for other things to be done and then request a refund even though the freelancer put in the effort do the task.


D. I disputed only when it did not met my satisfaction. But you not seeing your self as a client at this time, because freelancers can become DISHONEST also. They may able to submit junk files, that's what this thread is about. I have been disputing many such freelancers, who's work can not be executed. Think of you are ought to make a software, then you can't even click run on it nor doing what you are asking them to do. So what is the solution here if that happens ? (I'm not talking about penny smalll funded cash).

 

F. In terms of the cash amount, so you said earlier, just release the cash eventhough it's a junk file. So how much would you think I shall still be disputing on if such case happened?.. Will my account still be blocked ?

 


Preston H wrote:

It is ACCEPTABLE for a client to click the buttons to request a refund when a freelancer has simply gone missing and hasn't done anything and hasn't clicked the Submit work. If the freelancer is really gone, then the refund request will be granted AUTOMATICALLY after 7 days.


G. Right, but then, will upwork will scolded or blocked my profile if such thing happened ?

 


Preston H wrote:

It is NOT OKAY for a client to set up a fixed-price contract and then nitpick about the quality of the freelancer's work or ask for other things to be done and then request a refund even though the freelancer put in the effort do the task.


H. I may have been perceived to have done such things in the past, but I may surely will not commit such activity again in the future. Because at that time, I was making an instruction, then I missed few things in it, but I intently sent bonus / reimbursement for such extra changes. But then, the freelancer could not finish it due to that, which I think may be lack of skill that I've missed in his profile. So could this be the bottom reason of the my account flag ?

re: "If a hired freelancer, just left the job or left the platform without a word after charging nor giving me any of his work? Then what should I do ??!. Let them leave and take my money ??. Can I just end contract, and click ask for refund ??"

 

Yes.

You can do that.

If the freelancer seems to be missing, and hasn't done anything, you can just close the contract.

 

If this is an hourly contract, you will be charged ZERO.

 

If this is a fixed-price contract and the freelancer hasn't done anything, you can and should close the contract and edit the amount of money to be released to ZERO. The money in escrow will be refunded to you AUTOMATICALLY if the freelancer is simply gone and doesn't do anything.

 

Also: If you request such a refund, and the freelancer sees it, and the freelancer hasn't done any work on the project, the freelancer should immediately agree to the refund requst.

 

Upwork will not penalize clients for such activity.

No client is getting suspended or penalized for requesting refunds of fixed-price escrow money when the freelancer hasn't done anything or is missing.


Preston H wrote:

re: "If a hired freelancer, just left the job or left the platform without a word after charging nor giving me any of his work? Then what should I do ??!. Let them leave and take my money ??. Can I just end contract, and click ask for refund ??"

 

Yes.

You can do that.

If the freelancer seems to be missing, and hasn't done anything, you can just close the contract.


So how refund is different than dispute ? Because, it seems that's what I've been doing in most case like you said.

 


Preston H wrote:

 

Also: If you request such a refund, and the freelancer sees it, and the freelancer hasn't done any work on the project, the freelancer should immediately agree to the refund requst.

 

Upwork will not penalize clients for such activity.

No client is getting suspended or penalized for requesting refunds of fixed-price escrow money when the freelancer hasn't done anything or is missing.


But in some case, freelancer feels they've done some work, but failed to accomplish it  (either they know or not or disagree). So this would be considered as dispute right ? but in which UIUX/process would refund VS dispute is different so I would know what to do.

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