Feedback Removal

b566a8e0 · ‎05-29-2021

I just had a bad experience with a freelancer and learned that the ones that are "top-rated" can remove bad feedback from their ratings. I guess this has been active for quite some time now, it's just that I now learned about it. FWIW, this destroys the rating system and any credibility in its accuracy. It's one of the reasons I moved away from guru.com.

Now, I'm not sure if the guys at upwork have thought this through well enough, and have realized that this can completely backfire. For example I, for one, after about $15K spent here, will now avoid "top-rated" talents like the plague, will more extensively scrutinize their profiles, and will make tests to "top-rated" talent much harder.

gilbert-phyllis · ‎05-29-2021

The feedback removal perk is limited in scope and does not undermine the whole feedback structure. On the contrary, it represents the only defense FLs have against unreasonable clients (besides avoiding them to start with, and we all slip up from time to time). A freelancer can only use it if they have completed at least 10 new contracts and at least three months have passed since the last time they used it. Serious FLs only use it when absolutely necessary to avoid losing TR status or when a client leaves a comment so awful they can't let it stay on their profile until it ages out of sight. FLs who encounter those situations frequently are apt to find the fb removal perk insufficient to stay top ranked.

b566a8e0 · ‎05-29-2021

I'm sorry but that reasoning doesn't work for me, and it's not entirely correct anyway. Freelancers have the reply feature, for example, and if the freelancer is so great that it's really a statistical fluke, then statistics itself will take care of it. As for me, I'd rather be able to make my own mind about how reasonable or unreasonable a feedback I see in a freelancer's profile is, rather than having that option taken away. That's the way it works in every other sector.

gilbert-phyllis · ‎05-29-2021

Alexander H wrote:
I'm sorry but that reasoning doesn't work for me, and it's not entirely correct anyway. Freelancers have the reply feature, for example, and if the freelancer is so great that it's really a statistical fluke, then statistics itself will take care of it. As for me, I'd rather be able to make my own mind about how reasonable or unreasonable a feedback I see in a freelancer's profile is, rather than having that option taken away. That's the way it works in every other sector.

Replying to an unreasonable client's vindictive fb simply calls attention to it so no, that is not a meaningful defensive tool. In any case, you should do what works for you. It might be worth considering that being overly reliant on "tests" likely screens out the very best talent who don't have time, patience, or the need to jump through hoops very often.

prestonhunter · ‎05-29-2021

Tests are unnecessary and often counterproductive.

Hire many freelancers.

Evaluate their work. Quickly end the contracts on underperforming freelancers. Continue working only with the one who provide you with the most value.

b566a8e0 · ‎05-29-2021

@prestonhunter wrote:
Tests are unnecessary and often counterproductive.
Evaluate their work. Quickly end the contracts on underperforming freelancers. Continue working only with the one who provide you with the most value.

That can work for tasks that do not require consistency, which is not our case (translations, currently). We can't have a mix of random translation styles in a text corpus.

And tests are absolutely fundamental as it hasn't been once or twice we've caught one of those so-called "top talent" cheating by submitting embellished google-translate results.

b566a8e0 · ‎05-29-2021

Replying to an unreasonable client's vindictive fb simply calls attention to it so no, that is not a meaningful defensive tool. In any case, you should do what works for you. It might be worth considering that being overly reliant on "tests" likely screens out the very best talent who don't have time, patience, or the need to jump through hoops very often.

An interesting assumption about clients' feedback being "unreasonable and vindictive", as opposed to freelancers being abusive and simply wanting to cover their bad performance and missed deadlines.
But as you indicated, yes, whatever works for me, which is ignoring Top Talent that has any removed feedback. Why should I risk becoming one of the 10% screwed customers that were scrubbed from their profiles.?

Also, no worries if "top talent" freelancers think they're above testing and should be trusted "just because". The world is huge and there's always new talent willing to prove themselves that hasn't risen to that level of entitledness 🙂

petra_r · ‎05-30-2021

Alexander H wrote: Why should I risk becoming one of the 10% screwed customers that were scrubbed from their profiles.?

So you assume that 10% of top rated freelancers feedback was removed and all of those cases involved "screwed over" clients?

Alexander H wrote: Also, no worries if "top talent" freelancers think they're above testing and should be trusted "just because"

Tests are fine provided they are paid for at the freelancer's normal rate.

b566a8e0 · ‎05-30-2021

Petra R wrote:
Alexander H wrote: Why should I risk becoming one of the 10% screwed customers that were scrubbed from their profiles.?
So you assume that 10% of top rated freelancers feedback was removed and all of those cases involved "screwed over" clients?

Alexander H wrote: Also, no worries if "top talent" freelancers think they're above testing and should be trusted "just because"
Tests are fine provided they are paid for at the freelancer's normal rate.

I´m not assuming anything. I'm just saying that considering that "Top Talent" can drop the ball on 10% of their contracts without penalty and without it being reflected anywhere, that's a risk I can perfectly well live without.
It's as simple as it gets: I have one set of apples which - good or bad - I can examine thoroughly. Then I have a different set of apples which are "recommended" by the seller but I can examine only one side of them - the polished shiny one, and I've already had an experience of getting a rotten one. Guess from which set it makes sense to buy from now on?

Regarding tests, I always pay tests at the regular rate.

colettelewis · ‎05-31-2021

Alexander H wrote:
Petra R wrote:
Alexander H wrote: Why should I risk becoming one of the 10% screwed customers that were scrubbed from their profiles.?
So you assume that 10% of top rated freelancers feedback was removed and all of those cases involved "screwed over" clients?

Alexander H wrote: Also, no worries if "top talent" freelancers think they're above testing and should be trusted "just because"
Tests are fine provided they are paid for at the freelancer's normal rate.

I´m not assuming anything. I'm just saying that considering that "Top Talent" can drop the ball on 10% of their contracts without penalty and without it being reflected anywhere, that's a risk I can perfectly well live without.
It's as simple as it gets: I have one set of apples which - good or bad - I can examine thoroughly. Then I have a different set of apples which are "recommended" by the seller but I can examine only one side of them - the polished shiny one, and I've already had an experience of getting a rotten one. Guess from which set it makes sense to buy from now on?

Regarding tests, I always pay tests at the regular rate.

________________________________________

It would only be 10% if a top-rated freelancer used this perk consistently, which I very much doubt is the case. Many of us have never even used it! As you are in the translation field, why not use one of the better-known translation sites?

It is true though that translation is beginning to be a problematic category - particularly problematic for experienced translators, who are up against unscrupulous so-called translators who shamelessly use and pass off AI translations (that are not always terrible) as their own work, and manage to become top-rated on strength of them.

jr-translation · ‎05-31-2021

Nichola L wrote:
Alexander H wrote:
Petra R wrote:
Alexander H wrote: Why should I risk becoming one of the 10% screwed customers that were scrubbed from their profiles.?
So you assume that 10% of top rated freelancers feedback was removed and all of those cases involved "screwed over" clients?

Alexander H wrote: Also, no worries if "top talent" freelancers think they're above testing and should be trusted "just because"
Tests are fine provided they are paid for at the freelancer's normal rate.

I´m not assuming anything. I'm just saying that considering that "Top Talent" can drop the ball on 10% of their contracts without penalty and without it being reflected anywhere, that's a risk I can perfectly well live without.
It's as simple as it gets: I have one set of apples which - good or bad - I can examine thoroughly. Then I have a different set of apples which are "recommended" by the seller but I can examine only one side of them - the polished shiny one, and I've already had an experience of getting a rotten one. Guess from which set it makes sense to buy from now on?

Regarding tests, I always pay tests at the regular rate.
________________________________________
It would only be 10% if a top-rated freelancer used this perk consistently, which I very much doubt is the case. Many of us have never even used it! As you are in the translation field, why not use one of the better-known translation sites?

It is true though that translation is beginning to be a problematic category - particularly problematic for experienced translators, who are up against unscrupulous so-called translators who shamelessly use and pass off AI translations (that are not always terrible) as their own work, and manage to become top-rated on strength of them.

And those that get called out by clients just refund the client and the feedback is no longer visible.

2a05aa63 · ‎06-01-2021

Alexander H wrote:
Petra R wrote:
Alexander H wrote: Why should I risk becoming one of the 10% screwed customers that were scrubbed from their profiles.?
So you assume that 10% of top rated freelancers feedback was removed and all of those cases involved "screwed over" clients?

Alexander H wrote: Also, no worries if "top talent" freelancers think they're above testing and should be trusted "just because"
Tests are fine provided they are paid for at the freelancer's normal rate.

I´m not assuming anything. I'm just saying that considering that "Top Talent" can drop the ball on 10% of their contracts without penalty and without it being reflected anywhere, that's a risk I can perfectly well live without.
It's as simple as it gets: I have one set of apples which - good or bad - I can examine thoroughly. Then I have a different set of apples which are "recommended" by the seller but I can examine only one side of them - the polished shiny one, and I've already had an experience of getting a rotten one. Guess from which set it makes sense to buy from now on?

Regarding tests, I always pay tests at the regular rate.

How many contract did that freelancer remove over the whole work history?

gilbert-phyllis · ‎05-30-2021

Alexander H wrote:
Replying to an unreasonable client's vindictive fb simply calls attention to it so no, that is not a meaningful defensive tool. In any case, you should do what works for you. It might be worth considering that being overly reliant on "tests" likely screens out the very best talent who don't have time, patience, or the need to jump through hoops very often.

An interesting assumption about clients' feedback being "unreasonable and vindictive", as opposed to freelancers being abusive and simply wanting to cover their bad performance and missed deadlines.
But as you indicated, yes, whatever works for me, which is ignoring Top Talent that has any removed feedback. Why should I risk becoming one of the 10% screwed customers that were scrubbed from their profiles.?

Also, no worries if "top talent" freelancers think they're above testing and should be trusted "just because". The world is huge and there's always new talent willing to prove themselves that hasn't risen to that level of entitledness 🙂

To be clear, I neither said nor implied (nor do I think) all negative fb from clients is by definition unreasonable and vindictive. I also recognize the platform is awash in poorly qualified and/or lazy FLs who will seize any means available to cover their bad performance and missed deadlines. My point is the Top Rated feedback removal perk is not the powerful tool you seem to think it is, in the hands of those lazy, ill-qualified FLs.

prestonhunter · ‎05-30-2021

As a ciient, I am certainly not required to use the work that I pay freelancers to produce.

I routinely hire multiple freelancers to do the same work and then choose the work that I like the best or choose to continue to work with the freelancers whose work I like the best.

If I am testing freelancers, then I can set their maximum allowable hours per week to just a single hour. So even if they ignore my instructions to do limited work and even if I am not paying attention to what they are doing, they can bill for only a small amount of money.

So hiring multiple freelancers works even for work which requires consistency, such as writing and translation.

I agree with the original poster's observation that a "Top Rated" badge does not guarantee that a freelancer will do a good job for my project. But "Top Rated" status is definitely NOT a reason to avoid a freelancer. Personally, I don't pay much attention to that when hiring. But if I wanted to, I could look at a "Top Rated" freelancer's work history and if the freelancer HAS had any feedback removed, I could see it because the feedback removal itself is noted in the work history.

marc_compte · ‎05-30-2021

I just learned that this can be done, but do they remove the review entirely from the feedback system or is it just not displayed on their profile?

And, can "top" clients do the same?

petra_r · ‎05-30-2021

Marc C wrote:
I just learned that this can be done, but do they remove the review entirely from the feedback system or is it just not displayed on their profile?

The stars and comment are replaced by "This feedback has been removed" and the contract excluded from the JSS calculation.

Marc C wrote:
And, can "top" clients do the same?

There is no such thing as "top rated" clients and feedback for clients is more or less irrelevant. I barely glance at what feedback a client received (unless there are huge red flags), but look very carefully at the feedback they left.

marc_compte · ‎05-30-2021

Yes, I didn't use the proper naming. I meant, can PLUS clients do so?

And the relevancy I think it is subjective. I always look at both the feedback they give and the one they are given.

ceefaeca · ‎05-30-2021

If you had a bad experience with someone it doesn't mean that they are not good! There are many who rated them awesomely, person worked for months to get those perks to remove 1 feedback removal in months (3 months, I guess?).

If the person's skill depreciated (aah, yeah let's assume) then they will get more negative feedbacks and eventually will suffer. But please don't expect that the person should be "harmed" because of your negative feedback, it is just a user's opinion.

I just saw another comment, seems like you don't like that freelancers have a "reply" feature for feedback. Well, Upwork profile is literally a resume which people will evaluate, and the person has every right to explain the reason behind why this bad thing happened. Mostly, I feel, clients are unfair with freelancers who worry about feedbacks. I am sorry to say this, but no client of mine ever worried about how their feedback is impacting me.

They give feedbacks as their opinion for my work.

b566a8e0 · ‎05-31-2021

Aru B wrote:
If you had a bad experience with someone it doesn't mean that they are not good! There are many who rated them awesomely, person worked for months to get those perks to remove 1 feedback removal in months (3 months, I guess?).

I just saw another comment, seems like you don't like that freelancers have a "reply" feature for feedback. Well, Upwork profile is literally a resume which people will evaluate, and the person has every right to explain the reason behind why this bad thing happened. Mostly, I feel, clients are unfair with freelancers who worry about feedbacks. I am sorry to say this, but no client of mine ever worried about how their feedback is impacting me.

It depends on what kind of bad experience it is. Sometimes they're skill related, sometimes they're attitude related.

A person doesn't need to "work for months" to remove the feedback. Just (apparently) there have to be three months elapsed and have had 10 contracts of any kind. So for example it becomes feasible to remove the bad feedback for a $1K 2 months project by asking 10 friends to hire you for $2 each.

You also got the second part wrong - My point was precisely that since they have the option of replying as a way to sharing their side of the story about what happened, the option to remove feedback shouldn't exist.

I'd be really thrilled to see how many would support turning the tables around. As in booking.com allowing hotels to remove 1 negative review for every 10 good ones. Or Glassdoor.com allowing companies to remove 1 bad employee review for every 10 good ones. Or Airbnb, or Amazon, or Trustpilot, or Google .... Once you allow that, the whole rating system is suspect and becomes meaningless. The whole point of ratings is precisely building trust.

Also, most people seem to be equating all reviews, and they are far from equal. There's quite a lot of difference between the more frequent "don't care, 4*/5* review, no text, no troubles" type of review, and a written detailed description of encountered problems (or of exceptional performance). They do not carry the same statistical weight, and the fact that the latter can be removed skews things even more than merely the removal of a random data point.

ceefaeca · ‎05-31-2021

Alexander H wrote:
It depends on what kind of bad experience it is. Sometimes they're skill related, sometimes they're attitude related.

Well, I hope you did not hire a python expert for doing content writing? The person must have done many jobs in the same domain, that's why they are top-rated!

Alexander H wrote:
A person doesn't need to "work for months" to remove the feedback. Just (apparently) there have to be three months elapsed and have had 10 contracts of any kind. So for example it becomes feasible to remove the bad feedback for a $1K 2 months project by asking 10 friends to hire you for $2 each.

Lol, you don't know how it works here perhaps. The ammount of contracts matter hugely in feedbacks. And no one, literally no one can be top-rated being hired on 10 contracts of $2. Even if the person removes the public feedback, private feedback of $1k will stay there and haunt the person for months.

By the way, if you can prove that the person was hired by friends on 10 dummy contracts of $2, you can contact the support because it will be a violation of ToS.

(I wish accusing someone baselessly for something like this was also a violation of ToS here)

Alexander H wrote:
You also got the second part wrong - My point was precisely that since they have the option of replying as a way to sharing their side of the story about what happened, the option to remove feedback shouldn't exist.

Not everyone has that option. And every single person in this world has every right to tell their side of the story. Whether the person has any privileges.

Alexander H wrote:
I'd be really thrilled to see how many would support turning the tables around. As in booking.com allowing hotels to remove 1 negative review for every 10 good ones. Or Glassdoor.com allowing companies to remove 1 bad employee review for every 10 good ones. Or Airbnb, or Amazon, or Trustpilot, or Google .... Once you allow that, the whole rating system is suspect and becomes meaningless. The whole point of ratings is precisely building trust.

Well, this is the internet and freelancers experience every type of person daily. Someone's insanity cannot be the reason for ending the future of a person over here, that's why the option exists!! Looks like your are more concerned that other clients, including their existing clients, should not work with that person because one client is having issues. Oh no!

Alexander H wrote:
Also, most people seem to be equating all reviews, and they are far from equal. There's quite a lot of difference between the more frequent "don't care, 4*/5* review, no text, no troubles" type of review, and a written detailed description of encountered problems (or of exceptional performance). They do not carry the same statistical weight, and the fact that the latter can be removed skews things even more than merely the removal of a random data point.

Experienced clients don't. When I hire someone here, I make sure not to check the reviews alone. I'd be happy in hiring a person with bad reviews if they showed some confidence that they can do the job. Mainly because the feedback system is just user's opinion. Someone's experience cannot be the evidence about the quality of that person's work.

Again, I am pretty sure you did all checks and won't hire anyone with 10 contracts of $2!! Also, the person CANNOT be the top-rated having this kind of profile.

petra_r · ‎05-31-2021

Aru B wrote:
. Even if the person removes the public feedback, private feedback of $1k will stay there and haunt the person for months.

Wrong. The feedback removal perk removes the impact of the contract on the JSS. Removal of the public feedback is optional

ceefaeca · ‎05-31-2021

Petra R wrote:
Aru B wrote:
. Even if the person removes the public feedback, private feedback of $1k will stay there and haunt the person for months.
Wrong. The feedback removal perk removes the impact of the contract on the JSS. Removal of the public feedback is optional

Wouldn't it impact the JSS for once even?

petra_r · ‎05-31-2021

Aru B wrote:
Petra R wrote:
Aru B wrote:
. Even if the person removes the public feedback, private feedback of $1k will stay there and haunt the person for months.
Wrong. The feedback removal perk removes the impact of the contract on the JSS. Removal of the public feedback is optional
Wouldn't it impact the JSS for once even?

No. That's the whole point of the perk. Once you use the perk, the contract is excluded from the JSS calculation entirely.