🐈
» Forums » Clients » Freelancer logged way too many hours
Page options
marzdirect
Community Member

Freelancer logged way too many hours

I created a project asking a programmer to create a simple project. I started it, did most of the hard work like getting it to connect to BigCommerce and another API. I gave them clear instructions, answered their questions, and spent 2 hours on the phone with them.

 

After a week they asked some questions and I gave some feedback. I didn't realize he had billed me 14 hours for that week because he manually added the hours on Friday. This week, he has logged 10 more hours for a total of 24 and the changes I got were minimal. 

 

In our emails back and forth, I learned that he is billing me 2 hours because he had to learn how to add Log4J to the project, another couple hours because Eclipse would not compile Groovy properly and so he installed IntelliJ which is what I use and got the project working. And then a few more hours saying he had to read my code and learn about it because I didn't use Angular 4 but was using Angular 1. And he didn't know Jersey to build a REST application but only knew Spring REST.

 

I should have learned about all this during the interview and 2-hour phone call but I didn't. He assured me that he could handle the project and since I was so busy, I took him at his word. Now, 2 weeks later, hardly any of the work is done and I'm being billed 24 hours. I want to dispute it, but I see no way to do that. There are 10 hours logged this week and I have paused the project. I don't want to pay those 10 hours as I have already paid 14 for last week and have gotten very little for his efforts.

 

What do I do? There has to be a way to dispute this. So far the only advice I see is that you move on and let them have the money. As an UpWork freelancer myself, I find that highly unethical and would never do that to a client. As someone on the hiring side, it makes me want to avoid UpWork like the plague.

 

Please advise me as to what I can do.

ACCEPTED SOLUTION
browersr
Community Member

One key here is that you said he "manually added the hours". Upwork does not cover manually added hours as they need screen shots and descriptions. It would seem you have allowed manually added hours for this project and it isn't clear from your description whether that was discussed. I realize you are asking what to do in this situation, but first for other clients reading this at some point.

 

You need to use the max hours per week setting provided to clients for hourly projects. When you are starting with a new freelancer on this type of project, you should set this number low enough to protect your investment but high enough to actually get a sense of the work and communication style. I advise all new clients of mine to set it to 5 hours. Next, do not allow manually entered hours. With this the freelancer cannot bill above your max and if they are using the timer you are able to see the hours in 10 minute segments including screen shots. So if you are paying attention, you will know the hours used and what they are doing before a pile shows up. This tale illustrates perfectly the importance of weekly max hours.

 

I am not well versed in the dispute process having never been through it, but others are (whether they have been through it or not) so I'll let them speak more about it. I absolutely see fault on both sides and I'd think before going a dispute route it would be good to have a conversation with the freelancer to see if something can be worked out. Clearly this person is in over his head, but at the same time issues do arise during any project and typically not every topic and every aspect is known such that some education may be required. However, your description certainly paints an extreme picture of someone not even close to capable. To the extent this person has a conscience, perhaps he will agree to give back some hours. It's certainly worth starting here.

 

At the very least going forward use the tools made available on this site to prevent (or at least significantly mitigate) this from happening again.

 

 

View solution in original post

24 REPLIES 24
petra_r
Community Member

You missed the chance to disute last week's hours, The review time runs from Monday to midnight on Friday UTC.

As for this week's hours (logged this current week) the preferable thing would be to discuss it with the freelancer, they can still remove hours (delete them) until Monday lunchtime UTC.

If the freelancer doesn't do that you can dispute from Monday afternoon UTC onwards until Friday midnight UTC.

 

If it is manual time (not tracked) you'll win the dispute by default.

 

I missed the dispute by a few hours. I thought it would be EST and not UTC.

 

I tried discussing with the freelancer and they won't budge and are saying that it is my fault and I shouldn't have hired him. So the hours won't be removed. I closed the project and commented. On Monday I'll dispute the hours.

 

Thanks for your help!

browersr
Community Member

One key here is that you said he "manually added the hours". Upwork does not cover manually added hours as they need screen shots and descriptions. It would seem you have allowed manually added hours for this project and it isn't clear from your description whether that was discussed. I realize you are asking what to do in this situation, but first for other clients reading this at some point.

 

You need to use the max hours per week setting provided to clients for hourly projects. When you are starting with a new freelancer on this type of project, you should set this number low enough to protect your investment but high enough to actually get a sense of the work and communication style. I advise all new clients of mine to set it to 5 hours. Next, do not allow manually entered hours. With this the freelancer cannot bill above your max and if they are using the timer you are able to see the hours in 10 minute segments including screen shots. So if you are paying attention, you will know the hours used and what they are doing before a pile shows up. This tale illustrates perfectly the importance of weekly max hours.

 

I am not well versed in the dispute process having never been through it, but others are (whether they have been through it or not) so I'll let them speak more about it. I absolutely see fault on both sides and I'd think before going a dispute route it would be good to have a conversation with the freelancer to see if something can be worked out. Clearly this person is in over his head, but at the same time issues do arise during any project and typically not every topic and every aspect is known such that some education may be required. However, your description certainly paints an extreme picture of someone not even close to capable. To the extent this person has a conscience, perhaps he will agree to give back some hours. It's certainly worth starting here.

 

At the very least going forward use the tools made available on this site to prevent (or at least significantly mitigate) this from happening again.

 

 

I don;t know what happened to my earlier post - so a repost.

 

Robert"

 

With all your detailed explanation I got a sense of the issue.  I am not saying the freelancer did not cheat you.  But here is my take:

 

1. You get what you pay for.

2 Upwork and freelancers are not vending machines where you plop in few coins and get your desired junk food or drink.

3. You say you spent 2 hrs - who pays for that time?

4. the e-mails back and forth - who pays for the time?

5. Learning Log4j in couple of hours is pretty fast and he did installed IntellJ.

6. You being in software must know that each version of programs are bit different.  If some one is used with the latest technology they may have difficult time understanding older conventions.  I used to use slide rules and log tables to do long computations.  How many can use them now? Angular 1 vs Angular 4 is similar to slide rule analogy - I believe people using 1 had to rewrite the entire code.

7. Learning some one else code without proper documentation and comments is rather difficult.  Companies like Google, Amazon or Facebook spend lots of money so that the codes are fully compliant with their standard and a random person in future could pick up the code and run with it.

Were your codes 'perfect'?

8.  If you are not happy with the freelancer pause the contract and hire some one else or if you believe after the initial quirks he could continue and finish stay with him.

 

Now not paying him would be like kicking the vending machine becasue it did not give you the can of suger water in the flavor you wanted.

 

And aren;t you being hyperbolic in saying that he logged "TOO MNAY HOURS" .  All I see is a total of 24 hours.

I expect a programmer to know their tools. He said Eclipse, I said fine. I asked Angular, he said fine. I don't like being billed for hours that were obviously for him having trouble with his tools. If I hired a truck driver to take something to another city, I wouldn't pay him to learn how to drive. I hire someone for their skills and I was under the impression he had them. My fault for not catching it sooner. I was very busy with clients and needed to offload a project. Now that client is mad because I'm now 2 weeks further along with nothing to show for it.


@Robert C wrote:

I expect a programmer to know their tools. He said Eclipse, I said fine. I asked Angular, he said fine. I don't like being billed for hours that were obviously for him having trouble with his tools. If I hired a truck driver to take something to another city, I wouldn't pay him to learn how to drive. I hire someone for their skills and I was under the impression he had them. My fault for not catching it sooner. I was very busy with clients and needed to offload a project. Now that client is mad because I'm now 2 weeks further along with nothing to show for it.


 Eclipse would not compile Groovy properly and so he installed IntelliJ which is what I use and got the project working. And then a few more hours saying he had to read my code and learn about it because I didn't use Angular 4 but was using Angular 1. And he didn't know Jersey to build a REST application but only knew Spring REST.

 

__________________

IMO I think both of you failed to communicate propoerly. and both of you are somewhat at fault. I may be wrong with my reply but I'm only able to read your version of what happened and your feelings about it. For example, did you convey to this freelancer that you used IntelliJ and that he should also be using that? You mentioned a REST application. Did you just mention that or did you go more into detail about him knowing Jersey. And did you specify what version of Angular you were using Or did you just take everything for granted?

 

This freelancer spent 2 hours in a phone conversation with you and also several emails. IMO he should get paid for that. It takes time, if things were not communicated correctly, or not communicated more in detail, to install applications, and to read your code and get everything working propoerly.

 

As for the truck driver example you stated. -  If I hired a truck driver to take something to another city, I wouldn't pay him to learn how to drive - would you have communicated to this truck driver, "Do you know how to drive a truck?" And the answer was yes, and then you found out that this driver only knows how to drive a 10 speed manual, and your truck turns out to be an 18 speed low high transmission.

 

Also, in hourly jobs, a freelancer is paid for the hours they worked. not the work they producted. If a problem arises a client can dispute the hours worked. not the quality of the work they received or didn't receive.

In fixed rate jobs, a freelancers is paid for the quality of work that is delivered to you (not the hours it takes) If a problem arises a client can dispute the quality of work produced or if work was not produced at all. 

 

 

petra_r
Community Member


@Scott B wrote:

Next, do not allow manually entered hours. With this the freelancer cannot bill above your max and if they are using the timer you are able to see the hours in 10 minute segments including screen shots. So if you are paying attention, you will know the hours used and what they are doing before a pile shows up. This tale illustrates perfectly the importance of weekly max hours.


 Actually manual hours are 100% safe for the client because any dispute for manual hours (if disputed in time) will be automatically decided in favour of the client.

 

Furthermore, neither manual nor tracked time in excess of the set weekly limit is EVER charged to the client. There seems to be a common misconception among freelancers and clients alike that somehow manual time in excess of the set weekly limit "counts" or is billed or paid. This is not the case.

 

yitwail
Community Member


@Petra R wrote:

 

 Actually manual hours are 100% safe for the client because any dispute for manual hours (if disputed in time) will be automatically decided in favour of the client.

You almost make it sound as if manual hours are safer for the client, but it's academic since I don't think a client can specify manual hours only. From the client perspective, manual hours would make it more difficult to monitor the freelancer since there are no screenshots, and unscrupulous freelancers can take advantage of this to pad their hours, as the freelancer in question may have. 2 hours for this, another couple for this, several hours for that -- even if it's not deliberate, timekeeping may not be as precise as when recorded by timetracker and a freelancer could consistently round up to the nearest hour. Even when I'm allowed manual hours, I only use it for small time segments and certainly not for the entire project, as I'd rather not do all the record keeping that will ensure I'm not overbilling the client.

 

But ultimately, a client or project manager needs to thoroughly evaluate the freelancer's output in relation to the time billed during the 5 day review period, when working with a freelancer for the first time. Not doing so is courting trouble.

__________________________________________________
"No good deed goes unpunished." -- Clare Boothe Luce
petra_r
Community Member


@John K wrote:

@Petra R wrote:

 

 Actually manual hours are 100% safe for the client because any dispute for manual hours (if disputed in time) will be automatically decided in favour of the client.

You almost make it sound as if manual hours are safer for the client, but it's academic since I don't think a client can specify manual hours only. From the client perspective, manual hours would make it more difficult to monitor the freelancer since there are no screenshots, and unscrupulous freelancers can take advantage of this to pad their hours, as the freelancer in question may have. 2 hours for this, another couple for this, several hours for that -- even if it's not deliberate, timekeeping may not be as precise as when recorded by timetracker and a freelancer could consistently round up to the nearest hour. Even when I'm allowed manual hours, I only use it for small time segments and certainly not for the entire project, as I'd rather not do all the record keeping that will ensure I'm not overbilling the client.

 

But ultimately, a client or project manager needs to thoroughly evaluate the freelancer's output in relation to the time billed during the 5 day review period, when working with a freelancer for the first time. Not doing so is courting trouble.


 I completely agree, and I also use manual time very sparingly.

My point was that from a client's perspective manual time, if disputed in time, comes with almost a "money back guarantee" because any dispute will be decided in favour of the client whereas properly logged time is very hard to dispute even if the actual output / work product is completely useless.

 

Yes, courting trouble. I'm hopeful Upwork sides with me on the 10 hours he billed this week manually. The 14 last week are gone, but at least I can save a bit. I won't make any money finishing the project for this client. So my hope is they like what I build for them, and will hire me to do more. Software is great in that way. People get something they like and they always want more. That is why I call software addictive. 🙂

browersr
Community Member


@Petra R wrote:

@Scott B wrote:

Next, do not allow manually entered hours. With this the freelancer cannot bill above your max and if they are using the timer you are able to see the hours in 10 minute segments including screen shots. So if you are paying attention, you will know the hours used and what they are doing before a pile shows up. This tale illustrates perfectly the importance of weekly max hours.


 Actually manual hours are 100% safe for the client because any dispute for manual hours (if disputed in time) will be automatically decided in favour of the client.

 

Furthermore, neither manual nor tracked time in excess of the set weekly limit is EVER charged to the client. There seems to be a common misconception among freelancers and clients alike that somehow manual time in excess of the set weekly limit "counts" or is billed or paid. This is not the case.

 


 Yes, we are saying the same thing with the difference being that my sentence structure sucked. Smiley Happy. In my first paragraph I indicated that UW wouldn't cover the manual time. In the part you quoted I was trying to bring both thoughts together in that setting max time prevents "overcharging" and turning off manual time means you can see what they were doing, for the time they are charging, via the screen shots. 

 

Appreciate the clarification because the "max time" setting is - in my view - a vital tool for clients and I wind up educating nearly 100% of mine because they are unaware.

 

 

I had max hours at 20 which was a mistake. I should have allowed 5 per week but I left the defaults. That won't happen again. Knowing that manual time is disputable is very helpful. I'll consider shutting down manual time in the future. For now though, I want to thank everyone for their help. I'm hopeful that the 10 hours this week can be disputed even though I closed the project.


Petra R wrote:

@Scott B wrote:

Next, do not allow manually entered hours. With this the freelancer cannot bill above your max and if they are using the timer you are able to see the hours in 10 minute segments including screen shots. So if you are paying attention, you will know the hours used and what they are doing before a pile shows up. This tale illustrates perfectly the importance of weekly max hours.


 Actually manual hours are 100% safe for the client because any dispute for manual hours (if disputed in time) will be automatically decided in favour of the client.

 

Furthermore, neither manual nor tracked time in excess of the set weekly limit is EVER charged to the client. There seems to be a common misconception among freelancers and clients alike that somehow manual time in excess of the set weekly limit "counts" or is billed or paid. This is not the case.

 


I believe it is not even possible to log manual hours in excess of the weekly limit. I accidentally tried once, by erroneously entering hours on teh wrong project, and hit a wall.

I'll be attempting to dispute the hours Monday. Hopefully, I didn't mess that up by closing the project. I don't think so, but Upwork might have required that I kept it open. I'm hoping not.

 

The hours were added manually so it is good to know that I have a chance on the dispute.

IMO you are being petty.  If the freelancer wanted to scam you they could have put the max 20 hours allowed.  If you were a B&M place and you hired an employee who did not perform.  Of course you would fire him, but would you garnish his wages?


@Prashant P wrote:

IMO you are being petty.  If the freelancer wanted to scam you they could have put the max 20 hours allowed.  If you were a B&M place and you hired an employee who did not perform.  Of course you would fire him, but would you garnish his wages?


I think you may be a little too far the other way, but the reality is that neither of us knows the full story so we can only take what's written.

 

I do not see a time based project with a freelancer here as analogous to an FTE in the B&M world. That just doesn't work for me on numerous levels. I do think clients hiring software developers should expect that the developer may have to use some time to get acquainted with a new framework or to deal with a problem that will arise. However, what's been described seems to me much more fundamental than that. If the client spent 2 hours going over all of this on the phone with the freelancer, and then freelancer proceeded as if the conversation never took place, I can certainly see the reason for being upset. There is a difference between previous code not working and me needing to take the time to get it in order, and me not being in control of my toolset or the toolset required. The latter is the way in which it is being described here.

 

Additionally, no one is saying the freelancer is trying to scam him. It might just be that the freelancer got himself in over his head. Seems like he would have kept going as well if the client didn't stop him by pausing the contract.

 

There is obviously another side here we aren't hearing. There is also the need on the client side to use the tools the platform requires and to monitor things closely especially at the beginning. However, if the client feels like he gave the freelancer everything he needed to be successful, and the freelancer still went sideways while on the clock, then seeking for some level of shared accountability feels fair to me. It wouldn't be for me to tell the client when the amount of hours rises to the level worthy of seeking a compromise. 

 


@Prashant P wrote:

IMO you are being petty.  If the freelancer wanted to scam you they could have put the max 20 hours allowed.  


Certainly, but the freelancer not maxing out the hours does not prove innocence, if the intent is to skim money over the course of a contract by padding hours. In that case, maxing out the hours is likely to attract attention, so a crafty cheater might make the time logged more plausible by not doing that.

__________________________________________________
"No good deed goes unpunished." -- Clare Boothe Luce


@John K wrote:


Certainly, but the freelancer not maxing out the hours does not prove innocence, if the intent is to skim money over the course of a contract by padding hours. In that case, maxing out the hours is likely to attract attention, so a crafty cheater might make the time logged more plausible by not doing that.


 Of course that is a possibility.  We really don;t know the whole story.  Based on OP's explanations and other people's responses.  I draw the picture as:

 

OP the freelancer wanted to be a farmer by getting the contract done at a cheaper price or he himself didn't know how to do it. Had no idea how long things would take -  So he hires - mostly based on price (remember he is subcontracting) - may be the freelancer was a scammer and idiot - may be OP did not know how to differentiate quality freelancers becasue he was trying to make a buck on the deal - may be OP did not communicate well or was using outdated technologies and infrasturcture that freelancer did not know.

 

So now the OP is in a bind he realized that he can not make money on the job he wanted to farm out so may be he is trying to stiff the freelancer. 

 

What I believe if you are a freelancer stay with what you know, don't aspire to be a farmer.  If you do want to be a farmer be prepared to go in a loss - learning experience.

 

I had few interviews where buyers wanted websites and logos.  I don't do logos, but if I wanted to I could subcontract.  But I didn't as it is not a skill set I am familiar or even know how to go about recruiting qualified logo makers. (I have seen people offering their services for $10 and my private client paid $150 for their logo). 

 

Where is Preston?  He has a very distinct take on situations like this.

015e9a52
Community Member

Hello 

 

I was just wondering if Upwork managed to refund you these hours?


@Vanessa B wrote:

Hello 

 

I was just wondering if Upwork managed to refund you these hours?


 Oh he will get his money back by refusing to accept the hours.

 My current situation: The freelancer did not go over the allowed hours but the amount of work completed for the hours reported.  is not possible.  I haven't closed the project yet.  Can I dispute the hours in this situation?

 

Really appreciate any suggestions

I'm guessing they spent a lot of time, but got little done. That is going to be hard to prove, especially since they are under allowed hours. In this situation I would limit their time and the size of project and keep everything very tight. I didn't have a limit on the hours in place which was my mistake. But I was able to argue that they spent way much more time than reasonable for the work described, and they never came back to me to get clarification or help to get past a problem. That last part is what essentially got me a decision in my favor. The developer never came back to report he was having trouble. Instead they spent hours trying to figure it out on their own, learning how to do it when they should have asked.


Cid L wrote:

 My current situation: The freelancer did not go over the allowed hours but the amount of work completed for the hours reported.  is not possible.  I haven't closed the project yet.  Can I dispute the hours in this situation?

 

Really appreciate any suggestions


If it's tracked hours and the FL was on teh ball with their activity memos, then you probably can't successfully dispute. But you could talk to the FL and possibly get them to withdraw some hours (I think). If it's manual hours, then you can dispute are are more or less guaranteed to win. OTOH, you might be inclined to discuss with the FL and reach a compromise instead of leaving them with nothing. As someone else pointed out, on hourly contracts you are paying for their time, not for the deliverable. That is why savvy FLs will insist on hourly contracts when they can't be sure how long something will take.

One of the main ways to defend against poor-quality freelancers or time-wasting freelancers is comparison.


Compare the freelancer's work, value and performance to other freelancers on your team who are doing similar work. Continue working only with those freelancers who provide you the best value.

 

But if you only have one freelancer working on the project, it is impossible to do that.


If you have four freelancers working on the project, doing similar work, it is much easier to spot the dead weight.

Latest Articles
Learning Paths