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cd8d8c0b
Community Member

Freelancer says they only work with clients that give 5 stars

I finished a job a couple of months ago and was happy with the results. I left a good review, and the stars were 4.85. I don't think this is bad. The freelancer left me a 5 star review. It seems they expected the same. Now they won't work with me again. Of course I can find someone else, but I feel that if Upwork allows this kind of unprofessional behaviour, it reduces the credibility of the reviews.

 

The review I left for the freelancer:

 

**Edited for Community Guidelines**

 

The review the freelancer left for me:

**Edited for Community Guidelines**

 

--- So I did not think anything went wrong or in a bad way. But then I send another job offer to her and she refused to work with me again. When she refused I told her I was confused, and that I thought everything went very well. Here are her own words:

 

**Edited for Community Guidelines**

 

In my opinion, this is a very unprofessional approach. We were happy with her work, and took the effort to explain and share all information needed to create the documents. Now I will have to explain to another freelancer, wasting time... and only because I left a 4.85 star review instead of 5. I responded to with the following to the freelancer:

 

**Edited for Community Guidelines**

 

So at the end of the day, the choice is made and I will move on. I only post this to create a dialogue about this experience and maybe some of you think I am wrong? Do I need to change my approach and just leave 5 stars even if I think it was slightly less than a 5 star experience? Give me your thoughts. Every experience is an opporunity for growth. Cheers. 

ACCEPTED SOLUTION

The whole ratings system would probably be improved if clients were prohibited from giving a perfect 5 scores so easily.

 

It was never Upwork's intention that clients give perfect scores all the time. Or as the norm.

 

In theory, a perfect score could be challenged, and a client could be asked for confirmation. Or a client who habitually gives perfect five scores could be investigated.

 

I'm not saying any of this will actually happen. But if you really think about it, you can see how this would improve Upwork. It would help foster a greater spread of scores, and help remove the compulsion among too many freelancers to fixate on perfect 5 scores.

 

Think about Olympic sports such as gymnastics and ice skating. Or think about scored competition shows such as "So You Think You can Dance" or "Dancing with the Stars." Perfec scores are a very rare exception. That is what the scoring system on Upwork is supposed to be like.

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39 REPLIES 39
g_vasilevski
Retired Team Member
Retired Team Member

Hi Brandon,

 

Please keep in mind that our Community is public and it is a violation of our Community Guidelines for private details to be posted publicly. 

Regarding your feedback, we always encourage freelancers and clients to leave truthful and honest feedback for each other. As you`ve already mentioned this will give a clear picture for both sides and help future freelancers and clients to determine if they would like to work together or not.

 

I hope that other community members will see your topic and join to discuss it further.

I would like to confirm that our team will investigate the freelancers further for violations of our TOS as well. If any violations are found proper actions will be taken. Thank you.

 

~ Goran
Upwork

Freelancers are free to refuse to work with whomever they want and for any reason. It is not unprofessional for them to refuse to work with anybody. In fact, it is encouraged that freelancers choose their clients carefully. 

petra_r
Community Member


... but I feel that if Upwork allows this kind of unprofessional behaviour, it reduces the credibility of the reviews.


Freelancers are free to work with any client for any reason they like, just as clients are free to work with any freelancer they like.

 

Likewise, freelancers are free to decline to work with any client for any reason they like, just as clients are free to decline to work with any freelancer they like.


Declining a new contract is not "unprofessional behaviour!"


The freelancer didn't pester you to leave 5 star feedback, simply declined to work with you again.

 

Upwork gets involved when freelancers are bugging clients to leave great feedback or similar, they don't force freelancers to work with you if they don't want to, for whatever reason.

 

The "Free" part in "Freelancer" means something.

 



Do I need to change my approach and just leave 5 stars even if I think it was slightly less than a 5 star experience? Give me your thoughts. Every experience is an opporunity for growth. Cheers. 


No, of course not. Most freelancers would not mind a 4.85. Some do.  You can't please everyone.

Leave honest feedback and move on. If that means the occasional freelancer takes exception, so be it.

I see nothing wrong with what the freelancer did. As far as I am concerned, a freelancer is free to make up their mind about who to work for. A freelancer could decide to not work with a client for any number of reasons.

 

MOST freelancers don’t think that way.

 

I am happy to work with clients again after they give me less than five-star ratings.

 

I respect these clients even more. Five stars across the board in every category means perfection in every category. Realistically speaking, nearly every perfect score clients give is inaccurate. So a client who actually takes the time to think about the scores she gives is being thoughtful and should be commended.

 

If some freelancers choose to fret about imperfect scores, they are wrong. But there should be no rule requiring a freelancer to work for someone again.

Brandon, whenever a client is happy with the work done and leaves less than 5 stars, because of the way Upwork works it's as if the client were stabbing the freelancer in the back.

 

It's silly, but unless you really have a real reason to be nasty to a freelancer, please don't leave less than 5 stars. I have a few clients who do that, leave a great feedback but less than 5 stars, and I tend to think twice before accepting to work with them again because anything less than 5 stars is considered as suspicious.

 

I do the same to clients. Unless they really exagerate, I only leave 5 stars. I know that other freelancers will avoid working with them if they were given less than 5 stars.


Luce N wrote:

Brandon, whenever a client is happy with the work done and leaves less than 5 stars, because of the way Upwork works it's as if the client were stabbing the freelancer in the back.

 


This is obviously not true. One can be happy with the work delivered, but end up unhappy about how the communication went with the freelancer. A feedback of 4.85 is a good feedback by the way and clients and freelancers should always leave appropriate feedback.

 

As a general rule, I would be very wary of anyone who doesn't want to work with me if I don't leave 5 stars. I wonder if a person who worries so much about getting 5 stars would worry about my project.

 

 

-----------
"Where darkness shines like dazzling light"   —William Ashbless


Rene K wrote:

This is obviously not true. One can be happy with the work delivered, but end up unhappy about how the communication went with the freelancer. A feedback of 4.85 is a good feedback by the way and clients and freelancers should always leave appropriate feedback.

I agree that 4.85 is generally a good feedback. However, the way the feedback system works it is not suprising to me that some people would act in this way.

 

As freelancers often try to maintain a high JSS for obvious reasons, so they will also do what they can to ensure they dont take jobs that potentially lower that score.

 

For example, some might think.....

4.85 - sure, its not a bad score - 'but if i only got 4,85 public score when the client was happy, what is the private score going to be?"

 

As a result they may decide not to take that risk in future.

 

Personally i have had a client consistently leave feedback around the 4-4.5 mark and hire me several times, i even questioned if there was any specific aspect they were not 100% happy with at one stage, they didnt answer but the next review was a glowing write up but still only a 4.3ish -

Due to the nature of private feedback i wont do work for this client now as the potential for less than great private feedback is not worth the price of the job to me. (very small budget jobs)

 

rating systems mean different things to different people and as such they will use them how they see fit - I dont think 4.85 is bad at all and it wouldnt bother me in the slightest, but i can fully understand why some people might not want to risk it. 

 

I dont think the private feedback system helps this situation, more specifically the fact that we are rated on 2 different scales, one 5 star the other 10 star!

 

ETA - I do however think that people should be leaving feedback appropriate to the job. This goes for clientas and freelancers obviously.

This is my problem with JSS in a nutshell. It doesn't give a freelancer a fair, honest review, and because of that it's difficult for us to correct mistakes we may have made, because we don't always know what they are.

 

I never considered it before but of course it makes sense to not accept additional work from someone who didn't leave a 5-star review, if maintaining a high JSS is important to you.

 

On the other hand I would never in a million years cite that as the reason I didn't accept additional work. I'd simply say I'm too busy with another project or I don't do that sort of thing any more (for example, I'm not designing books that are epub only any more).


Kelly B wrote:

On the other hand I would never in a million years cite that as the reason I didn't accept additional work. I'd simply say I'm too busy with another project or I don't do that sort of thing any more (for example, I'm not designing books that are epub only any more).


AGREED!

This is a very thoughtful and helpful reply. Thank you very much!


Rene K wrote:

Luce N wrote:

Brandon, whenever a client is happy with the work done and leaves less than 5 stars, because of the way Upwork works it's as if the client were stabbing the freelancer in the back.

 


This is obviously not true. One can be happy with the work delivered, but end up unhappy about how the communication went with the freelancer. A feedback of 4.85 is a good feedback by the way and clients and freelancers should always leave appropriate feedback.

 

As a general rule, I would be very wary of anyone who doesn't want to work with me if I don't leave 5 stars. I wonder if a person who worries so much about getting 5 stars would worry about my project.

 


Hi René, it seems that what is obvious to you is not obvious to me.

The last time a client only gave a 4.85 feedback, it was due to his communication mark. What I didn't get is that I had kept waiting for his answers to my questions for days, so I think HIS communication is not that great!

May I add that I don't worry more about getting 5 stars than about getting the job done as well as possible, and I feel rather let down when after doing the max to give a fairly good job I get less than 5 stars.

And as Jonathan says, when you get less than 5 stars, you tend to worry about what the private feedback is going to be, and this is a rather unpleasant thing to worry about.


Luce N wrote:

And as Jonathan says, when you get less than 5 stars, you tend to worry about what the private feedback is going to be, and this is a rather unpleasant thing to worry about.


I disagree to the extent that one of the main rationales for private feedback is to allow clients to leave a 5 star public feedback and a less than 10 private feedback. Conversely, less than 5 stars doesn't necessarily mean poor private feedback any more than 5 stars guarantees great private feedback.

__________________________________________________
"No good deed goes unpunished." -- Clare Boothe Luce


John K wrote:

I disagree to the extent that one of the main rationales for private feedback is to allow clients to leave a 5 star public feedback and a less than 10 private feedback. Conversely, less than 5 stars doesn't necessarily mean poor private feedback any more than 5 stars guarantees great private feedback.

But if one of the main reasons is to allow clients to leave 5 stars public and less than 10 private then that statement in itself clearly suggests that the whole system is designed to allow people to leave feedback that is not neccesarily appropriate to the job - The complete opposite of what is actually encourged.

 

ETA - No it doesnt neccesarily mean you will be left bad private feedback at all, BUT if the public review is lower then it is likely that the private review will be at least as low as the public one, if not more.

 

 


Jonathan H wrote:


But if one of the main reasons is to allow clients to leave 5 stars public and less than 10 private then that statement in itself clearly suggests that the whole system is designed to allow people to leave feedback that is not neccesarily appropriate to the job - The complete opposite of what is actually encourged.

 

ETA - No it doesnt neccesarily mean you will be left bad private feedback at all, BUT if the public review is lower then it is likely that the private review will be at least as low as the public one, if not more.

 

 


I don't speak for Upwork, so I can't categorically state what the system is designed to do, but from numerous community discussions over the years, I'm confident that a key objective is preventing feedback manipulation. When I first started out at oDesk, there were hordes of freelancers with perfect 5.0 lifetime ratings, which put anyone below 5.0 at a disadvantage, when every job had 10 or 20 applicants with 5.0 ratings. I managed to maintain a 5.0 rating over the first dozen or two jobs, but eventually there came the dreaded feedback less than 5.0. I overcame that somehow, but it was only after JSS was introduced, that I learned the reason for all those perfect 5.0 freelancers. Large numbers of them traded partial refunds in exchange for 5.0 feedback, while naive, honest freelancers like me struggled with our honest, imperfect ratings. But now that a significant component of a freelancer rating is no longer directly visible to the freelancer, it becomes much more difficult to manipulate. My JSS has fluctuated between 96% & 100%, so I don't think a few percentage JSS difference is very significant. And my percentage of clients who would recommend me, which is to say private feedback, has consistently been around 93%. But with the original 5 star system, once you're below 5.0, you can only be 4.99 or so everafter, whereas with JSS, you *can* raise it to 100%, not that 100% is greater than 99% in any significant way. So, it's not perfect, and undoubtedly it could be improved, but for my purposes, it's better than relying on private feedback exclusively. 

 

FYI, here's one discussion of many wherein a moderator and others address the issue of feedback manipulation: https://community.upwork.com/t5/Freelancers/Private-Feedback-Unable-to-Change/td-p/358874 

 

As to your second point, there's any number of reasons a client would leave a 4.85 feedback. Some people give less than perfect scores on principle. That's something you can check as a freelancer by reviewing the client's hiring history. If they consistently give less than 5 feedback, then don't count on being the exception. Also, if a client wants to rehire you after leaving that 4.85 review, I would give them the benefit of the doubt that they left you decent private feedback. After all, why rehire someone you can't recommend to anyone else?

 

__________________________________________________
"No good deed goes unpunished." -- Clare Boothe Luce

I don't speak for Upwork, so I can't categorically state what the system is designed to do, but from numerous community discussions over the years, I'm confident that a key objective is preventing feedback manipulation. When I first started out at oDesk, there were hordes of freelancers with perfect 5.0 lifetime ratings, which put anyone below 5.0 at a disadvantage, when every job had 10 or 20 applicants with 5.0 ratings. I managed to maintain a 5.0 rating over the first dozen or two jobs, but eventually there came the dreaded feedback less than 5.0. I overcame that somehow, but it was only after JSS was introduced, that I learned the reason for all those perfect 5.0 freelancers. Large numbers of them traded partial refunds in exchange for 5.0 feedback, while naive, honest freelancers like me struggled with our honest, imperfect ratings. But now that a significant component of a freelancer rating is no longer directly visible to the freelancer, it becomes much more difficult to manipulate. My JSS has fluctuated between 96% & 100%, so I don't think a few percentage JSS difference is very significant. And my percentage of clients who would recommend me, which is to say private feedback, has consistently been around 93%. But with the original 5 star system, once you're below 5.0, you can only be 4.99 or so everafter, whereas with JSS, you *can* raise it to 100%, not that 100% is greater than 99% in any significant way. So, it's not perfect, and undoubtedly it could be improved, but for my purposes, it's better than relying on private feedback exclusively. 

 

Hi John,

 

   I understand your points and you clearly have much more history/experiance with the platform than i do, as such i am sure you have a much better knowledge. All i can say is that as a relative newcomer it seems like the feedback system is designed to let the client (and freelancer) leave feedback that is not relative to the actual job. One score that is shown to the public in the form it was written by the client and another in the form of a supposedly mysterious calculation. 

Now, im not sure how it works for the client, but if the client scores you a 4.5 public, then naturally that 'should' translate to 9 stars private, and sometimes i am sure it does, but i am also sure that quite often this will be lower (particulary on jobs that were not a 5 star rating). So if this is the case, then shouldnt upwork be questioning why the client is leaving 2 differing reviews?

 

As to your second point, there's any number of reasons a client would leave a 4.85 feedback. Some people give less than perfect scores on principle. That's something you can check as a freelancer by reviewing the client's hiring history. If they consistently give less than 5 feedback, then don't count on being the exception. Also, if a client wants to rehire you after leaving that 4.85 review, I would give them the benefit of the doubt that they left you decent private feedback. After all, why rehire someone you can't recommend to anyone else?

 

I never actually ment to imply that i thought it was wrong or strange for a client to leave a 4.85 (or lower for that matter) I also fully appreciate that clients need to be able to leave reviews that they feel are appropriate to the specific job (as do freelancers). I just feel the system is not great, although with what you have said about the history of the system then its quite possible that it is a better alternative than what was available before. Feedback systems are only going to be a reliable source of information if they are not abused (by clients or freelancers). For the record, i would have no problem taking a second contact after a 4.85 score.

That's also a very good point. Thank you Rene.


Luce N wrote:

Brandon, whenever a client is happy with the work done and leaves less than 5 stars, because of the way Upwork works it's as if the client were stabbing the freelancer in the back.


Absolute nonsense, and exactly the kind of Kindergarten thinking that landed us with the JSS in the first place. Because of freelancers freaking out thinking they are such super-special little snowflakes that unless they actually destroyed the client's project and ate their hamster on top, they deserve 5 stars just for turning up.

 


Luce N wrote:

 

I do the same to clients. Unless they really exagerate, I only leave 5 stars. I know that other freelancers will avoid working with them if they were given less than 5 stars.


Then you are part of the problem and the mechanism that resulted in the star rating becoming utterly and completely meaningless.

 


Luce N wrote:

I tend to think twice before accepting to work with them again because anything less than 5 starts is considered as suspicious.


Seriously? Considered "suspicious??" By whom?

 


Luce N wrote:

I feel rather let down when after doing the max to give a fairly good job I get less than 5 stars.

You have got to be kidding... People honestly expect 5 stars for a "fairly" good job? What do you expect for a "really" good job? 7 and a bottle of wine?

 


Petra R wrote:

Luce N wrote:

Brandon, whenever a client is happy with the work done and leaves less than 5 stars, because of the way Upwork works it's as if the client were stabbing the freelancer in the back.


Absolute nonsense, and exactly the kind of Kindergarten thinking that landed us with the JSS in the first place. Because of freelancers freaking out thinking they are such super-special little snowflakes that unless they actually destroyed the client's project and ate their hamster on top, they deserve 5 stars just for turning up.

 


Luce N wrote:

 

I do the same to clients. Unless they really exagerate, I only leave 5 stars. I know that other freelancers will avoid working with them if they were given less than 5 stars.


Then you are part of the problem and the mechanism that resulted in the star rating becoming utterly and completely meaningless.

 


Luce N wrote:

I tend to think twice before accepting to work with them again because anything less than 5 starts is considered as suspicious.


Seriously? Considered "suspicious??" By whom?

 


Luce N wrote:

I feel rather let down when after doing the max to give a fairly good job I get less than 5 stars.

You have got to be kidding... People honestly expect 5 stars for a "fairly" good job? What do you expect for a "really" good job? 7 and a bottle of wine?

 


Petra, I can see that you are in top shape today.

I'm a bit too old to be into the kindergarden spirit. I just work hard to do a good job (I'm too humble to boast about it, it might be more than just a good job) and, being an adult, I would prefer clients to tell me directly what they reproach me rather than give me a mark they don't give an explanation to. How can you understand someone that says how wonderful your work is and then leaves less than 5 stars without explanation? It makes me feel judged by a superior Deus ex machina that has a every right over a little ant like me, instead of an adult being judged by an adult. Maybe this is due to the French school system which used to be, and maybe still is, absolutey terrifying.

 

But I rarely have to worry about less than 5 stars, I'm just saying that I hate it whenever it happens as I find it very disturbing. I would much rather have an honest conversation with the clients.

Thank you Luce. Your response helps me understand better that the source of the problem is the rating system. So I guess from now on I just need to be less honest and leave 5 stars, unless I don't want to work with them again... I liked the freelancer and was happy with her work. I'm dissapointed that I have to find someone else that is hopefully as good as she was. I don't like being forced to leave a review that is not exactly honest... but I understand now that if I want to have a successfull experience on Upwork, I need to play the game how it is played.   Thanks again!


Brandon R wrote:

Thank you Luce. Your response helps me understand better that the source of the problem is the rating system. So I guess from now on I just need to be less honest and leave 5 stars, unless I don't want to work with them again... I liked the freelancer and was happy with her work. I'm dissapointed that I have to find someone else that is hopefully as good as she was. I don't like being forced to leave a review that is not exactly honest... but I understand now that if I want to have a successfull experience on Upwork, I need to play the game how it is played.   Thanks again!


Well, Brandon, I suggest that rather than worrying to death the freelancer you like and whose job you appreciated by giving what she feels is a "bad grade", you should let her know what you really think was not perfect and see what can be done about it. You gave me the opportunity to analyse what I feel when I'm given less than a 5 star. As I'm a perfectionists, this harsh, cold evaluation really hurts my feelings!


Luce N wrote:

Brandon R wrote:

Thank you Luce. Your response helps me understand better that the source of the problem is the rating system. So I guess from now on I just need to be less honest and leave 5 stars, unless I don't want to work with them again... I liked the freelancer and was happy with her work. I'm dissapointed that I have to find someone else that is hopefully as good as she was. I don't like being forced to leave a review that is not exactly honest... but I understand now that if I want to have a successfull experience on Upwork, I need to play the game how it is played.   Thanks again!


Well, Brandon, I suggest that rather than worrying to death the freelancer you like and whose job you appreciated by giving what she feels is a "bad grade", you should let her know what you really think was not perfect and see what can be done about it.


So you think clients now have to justify why they gave 5 stars for everything and knocked one star off for one thing? And coach the freelancer how to improve?

 


Luce N wrote:

You gave me the opportunity to analyse what I feel when I'm given less than a 5 star. As I'm a perfectionists, this harsh, cold evaluation really hurts my feelings!

Over a 4.85... Not a 2.4 or a 1.

4.85

 

Thank you for your response Preston. I think I didn't deliver my message clear enough. I was not suggesting there be any rules implemented for a freelancer to work for someone again. That would be utterly ridiculous. But from a combination of the reponses here, I'm starting to understand (I think) the problem is more related to how the freelancer is penalized by Upwork for less than 5 star reviews?  Is the problem related to this?  Again, my experience with this freelancer was very good, with the exception that she didn't have the best command of english so this created some difficulties, but we worked through those difficulties which took extra effort on my part, but it was done. So instead of giving a 5 stars for "communication", I gave 4 stars... which balanced the full review to 4.85 stars. I thought it was the right thing to do... you know.. honesty. But it seems to be me that is now punished by leaving a honest and fair review, because the rating system on Upwork makes the freelancer feel like anything less than 5 stars is a punishment. 

 

My point about my post was never about forcing a freeelancer or anyone for that matter to do anything. My point is to try to understand the flaws in a rating system that cannot be used in an honest way if the person being rated feels, or actually is, overly affected by anything less than a perfect score.

You should not be taking from this that you should move forward by leaving dishonest reviews NO.

 

What you should take from this is an understanding that SOME (not everyone agrees) freelancers maybe trying to protect their JSS score - the impact of a 4.85 i would imagine is pretty insignificant (no one knows the exact calculation method) but the impact of a 6/7/8 star private feedback might have more of an impact, thats not to say you left a poor private feedback, it could (and probably was) a 9 or 10.

 

You ,should go on giving honest feedback that reflects how you feel the job went, and accept that some freelancers will take the whole feedback thing more seriously than others, and some will weigh up the risk of a potential 'bad mark'.

 

Remember, your 'inconveiniance' of having to go through everything with a new freelancer is just a risk you take when outsourcing work - The freelancer could just have easily been to busy to complete your work which would have left you in the same situation. I am also fairly sure this is not actually something that happens an awful lot, not after what is essentially a good score anyway.

cd8d8c0b
Community Member

I appreciate your reponse (minus the patronizing comments like "The "Free" part in "Freelancer" means something"). This is obvious. I'm not looking for an indentured servant. I see flaws in a rating system that makes anyone feel like if they get anything less than a perfect score it is "bad". (ie. car dealership service centers)

The whole ratings system would probably be improved if clients were prohibited from giving a perfect 5 scores so easily.

 

It was never Upwork's intention that clients give perfect scores all the time. Or as the norm.

 

In theory, a perfect score could be challenged, and a client could be asked for confirmation. Or a client who habitually gives perfect five scores could be investigated.

 

I'm not saying any of this will actually happen. But if you really think about it, you can see how this would improve Upwork. It would help foster a greater spread of scores, and help remove the compulsion among too many freelancers to fixate on perfect 5 scores.

 

Think about Olympic sports such as gymnastics and ice skating. Or think about scored competition shows such as "So You Think You can Dance" or "Dancing with the Stars." Perfec scores are a very rare exception. That is what the scoring system on Upwork is supposed to be like.

Preston, I completely agree with what you have said here. 

tta192
Community Member


Brandon R wrote:

Thank you for your response Preston. I think I didn't deliver my message clear enough. I was not suggesting there be any rules implemented for a freelancer to work for someone again. That would be utterly ridiculous. But from a combination of the reponses here, I'm starting to understand (I think) the problem is more related to how the freelancer is penalized by Upwork for less than 5 star reviews?  Is the problem related to this?  Again, my experience with this freelancer was very good, with the exception that she didn't have the best command of english so this created some difficulties, but we worked through those difficulties which took extra effort on my part, but it was done. So instead of giving a 5 stars for "communication", I gave 4 stars... which balanced the full review to 4.85 stars. I thought it was the right thing to do... you know.. honesty. But it seems to be me that is now punished by leaving a honest and fair review, because the rating system on Upwork makes the freelancer feel like anything less than 5 stars is a punishment. 

 

My point about my post was never about forcing a freeelancer or anyone for that matter to do anything. My point is to try to understand the flaws in a rating system that cannot be used in an honest way if the person being rated feels, or actually is, overly affected by anything less than a perfect score



This may or may not answer your question. What did the freelancer state on their profile about their command of English? If it's 'Native or bilingual' then you gave an accurate feedback, and the freelancer is just overreacting.

 

But if he stated his English was 'Conversational' then you shouldn't have used this as a reason to penalize the feedback. 

 

...which one is it ?

 

cd8d8c0b
Community Member

Very good point Andrei.  I just double checked after you wrote that and confirm that she claims "English: Fluent".

 

Besides the point of this individual experience, you've made me think of this in a different way than I had before. I'm still not clear on where I stand though. If someone says their english is just "conversational", and then Upwork asks me to give an amount of stars on how I would rate "communication", I think it would be strange to leave 5 stars... But I understand your point, considering the way this rating system is designed it would seem to unfairly penalize someone for something they already told you they aren't perfect at before you hired them.

 

Thanks for the different perspective! I'll have to think about this some more. This has been helpful. 

tta192
Community Member


Brandon R wrote:

Very good point Andrei.  I just double checked after you wrote that and confirm that she claims "English: Fluent".

 

Besides the point of this individual experience, you've made me think of this in a different way than I had before. I'm still not clear on where I stand though. If someone says their english is just "conversational", and then Upwork asks me to give an amount of stars on how I would rate "communication", I think it would be strange to leave 5 stars... But I understand your point, considering the way this rating system is designed it would seem to unfairly penalize someone for something they already told you they aren't perfect at before you hired them.

 

Thanks for the different perspective! I'll have to think about this some more. This has been helpful. 

 


That would leave non-native speakes with zero chances at getting a five-star review, no matter how good they are. That aside, you can (and should) leave someone a low feedback on Communication even if their English is perfect. Other aspects are far more important:

 

Were you updated on progress as often as you expected? (did you inform him about your expectations in this regard? )

 

Did the freelancer answer your questions quickly and accurately?

 

Did he ask the right questions, at the right time?

 

Were you informed asap about delays ? (delays should not affect your feedback on 'Communication', but you being informed in time about them, should!)

 

Very important if the freelancer's English is not perfect: did he make sure he understood all details/requirements ? was there any rework caused by this ? 

 

etc... you can have many indicators on this, and ideally you would also inform your freelancer about them upfront, so he knows how to best meet your expectations.

 

 

 

 

 

Brandon,

 

I think your freelancer was remarkably unprofessional and is also likely to shoot herself in the foot - she just lost a good client.  A fair assessment is a fair assessment, and I should think you did just that. There are too many freelancers who think that they are perfect and do not check where they may have fallen down. None of us are perfect. 

 

However, it does happen that some  unscrupulous clients use feedback as a sword of Damocles, that can have a disastrous effect on a freelancer's ratings. These clients are to be avoided at all costs where possible, but sometimes we do get caught in their net. 

 

Unfortunately, those clients give good clients (like yourself), who give fair feedback, a bad name. But I have to say, that the JSS system creates hyper tension, paranoia, and sometimes abuse between both client and freelancer - it does not create a comfortable working relationship. On the other hand, some sort of rating is necessary ... 

petra_r
Community Member


Andrei T wrote:

Brandon R wrote:

Again, my experience with this freelancer was very good, with the exception that she didn't have the best command of english so this created some difficulties, but we worked through those difficulties which took extra effort on my part, but it was done. So instead of giving a 5 stars for "communication", I gave 4 stars...



This may or may not answer your question. What did the freelancer state on their profile about their command of English? If it's 'Native or bilingual' then you gave an accurate feedback, and the freelancer is just overreacting.

 

But if he stated his English was 'Conversational' then you shouldn't have used this as a reason to penalize the feedback. 


I think people need to stop thinking of anything other than 5 stars as being "penalizing" which is just ridiculous.

The client found communicating with that freelancer a little challenging, hence a 4. That's all there is to it.

 

cd8d8c0b
Community Member


Petra R wrote:

Andrei T wrote:

Brandon R wrote:

Again, my experience with this freelancer was very good, with the exception that she didn't have the best command of english so this created some difficulties, but we worked through those difficulties which took extra effort on my part, but it was done. So instead of giving a 5 stars for "communication", I gave 4 stars...



This may or may not answer your question. What did the freelancer state on their profile about their command of English? If it's 'Native or bilingual' then you gave an accurate feedback, and the freelancer is just overreacting.

 

But if he stated his English was 'Conversational' then you shouldn't have used this as a reason to penalize the feedback. 


I think people need to stop thinking of anything other than 5 stars as being "penalizing" which is just ridiculous.

The client found communicating with that freelancer a little challenging, hence a 4. That's all there is to it.

 


Thank you Petra. I also think it's ridiculous. I think the only way of solving this is to create a better rating system. Until then, I either have to leave reviews based on principle, regardless of the negative affect it may have on me and my business... or I have to play the game and leave 5 stars even if I had a 4 star experience. I find it absurd that I have to consider this, and I also find it unfair to those freelancers that have actually earned 5 stars. But if this is the way that most people seem to be playing the game, then it reinforces my skepticism that the star-system is flawed and forced. If I have a 4 star experience, but still want to work with the person I should leave 5 stars. I'll only leave less than 5 stars if I'm willing to lose that freelancer. Rock and a hard place. 

wlyonsatl
Community Member

Brandon,

 

It is interesting to hear about the inadequacies of the JSS system from a client's perspective.

 

A 4.85 out of 5.00 rating, in the real world, is an excellent rating. 

 

Only in Upwork world is it required that the only acceptable rating is a 5.00. Many freelancers are conditioned to think that anything below a perfect 5.00 is offensive and a great detriment to their search for future work from other clients. Since the JSS system is so opaque, freelancers are at the mercy of client ratings of their work that they never see. 

 

Thanks for providing the board with your perspective on this issue that is so important to freelancers. (I have seen no evidence that clients care much about freelancer feedback for them, possibly because clients know that there will always be freelancers who will apply to their future job postings?) And Upwork provides far less information about clients' project history than it does about freelancers'.

 

What guidance, if any, does Upwork give you as a client in providing feedback for a freelancer in the JSS system? Are you told that 5.00 ratings should be an average and you should only provide lower ratings if the freelancer was obviously deficient in their work for you?

 


Will L wrote:

Brandon,

 

It is interesting to hear about the inadequacies of the JSS system from a client's perspective.

 

A 4.85 out of 5.00 rating, in the real world, is an excellent rating. AGREED!

 

Only in Upwork world is it required that the only acceptable rating is a 5.00. Many freelancers are conditioned to think that anything below a perfect 5.00 is offensive and a great detriment to their search for future work from other clients. Since the JSS system is so opaque, freelancers are at the mercy of client ratings of their work that they never see. Other than a average star rating, how else does this JSS system effect Freelancers business?

 

Thanks for providing the board with your perspective on this issue that is so important to freelancers. (I have seen no evidence that clients care much about freelancer feedback for them, possibly because clients know that there will always be freelancers who will apply to their future job postings?) And Upwork provides far less information about clients' project history than it does about freelancers'.  I definitely think that a clients review should be important. In the same way that Uber makes a very usable rating system so the drivers can decide if they are willing to pick up a potentially troublesome person, a client on Upwork could be abusive in the way they manage their jobs. I have two other ongoing jobs right now. One of them has been going on for almost 1 year, at a cost of around $5k so far, and I couldnt be happier. I almost want to end the contract and start a new one with him just so I have the opportunity to give an outstanding review for this freelancer. On the other hand I have another job that is going terribly. Two months past deadline, we have nothing to properly test yet, the communication is terrible... I'm afraid I will have to end the contract having spent $1k for nothing in return but lost time. Other than that, I want to leave a bad review for this person, but I am sure they we retaliate with a bad rating for me, leaving me in a bad position for future jobs I need done. I tell you this just because I do care about a review left about me as well. I just won't be so sensitive if it's less than perfect. 

 

What guidance, if any, does Upwork give you as a client in providing feedback for a freelancer in the JSS system? Are you told that 5.00 ratings should be an average and you should only provide lower ratings if the freelancer was obviously deficient in their work for you?

You know, I don't remember guidance. I think it just gives a very short description of what each star means as you hover over each choice. It was 6 months ago when I left this review... so my memory of Upwork guidance isn't very clear. In general, I don't think the Upwork platform is very user friendly. I don't think they invest much money into UI. I'll keep using it however because of the other unique advantages it gives. Next time I need to give a review I'll pay more attention to the Upwork guidance on it.


 


Brandon R wrote:

Other than that, I want to leave a bad review for this person, but I am sure they we retaliate with a bad rating for me, leaving me in a bad position for future jobs I need done. I tell you this just because I do care about a review left about me as well. I just won't be so sensitive if it's less than perfect. 

That is one aspect that i think Upwork does have right - as far as i'm aware it is not possible to post retaliation attacks on a client or freelancer - Lets say you end a contract and leave the freelancer very poor feedback. The freelancer cannot see your feedback until they have left feedback for you to. Then, if (i think its) 14 days passes and the other party doesnt leave a review yours will become visable, but the freelancer will then be unable to leave a review for you.  (and that all works both ways if it was the freelancer to close the contract)

Just found another example of someone who knows how to scare freelancers away:

 

He's offering a translation job (proposed price $5....). When you look at his past history, he's already hired 3 freelancers, each time he's paid them a pittance and rated them between 3.55 and 3.95. He could at least be thankful to people who have let him exploit them and give them a decent rating!

 

 

 

LOL.

 

Luce: That's a great example.

 

If I go to a fine restaurant and pay a lot of money for the meal, I'm going to expect that the service is top-notch, and the food is excellent. I'm going to expect that the restaurant is clean, and the decor and ambience are all impressive.

 

If I go to a fast-food restaurant and order off the dollar menu... I'm purchasing something based on price. If the restaurant staff doesn't spit in my food in front of me, and if the food does not cause instant death or paralysis, then that's pretty much all I expect.

 

I'm not going to login to Yelp and complain if the clerk at the register had a nose ring, was talking on her cell phone, or didn't look me in the eye when she took my order. And if the food is pretty much junk... Well, that's fine, that's what I expected.

 

(And I'm not speaking hypothetically. I do love me some Hot 'n Spicy McChicken...)

All of this just goes to show how irrationally the current JSS systems makes both freelancers and clients act.

 

On a scale of 0 to 5, average performance on a project (meaning the client got what they needed from the freelancer at the agreed price) should be rated a 3 (even by default, if the feelancer has to close the project and the client does not leave feedback). Freelancers should not have their JSS dinged because a client hasn't left feedback.

 

Performing well above or below expectations should lead to a JSS rating above or below 3.

 

As it is now, with so many freelancers chasing perfect "5's" and so many clients uninterested or clueless about the importance of this part of the Upwork freelancer experience or, worse, willing to use the threat of a low JSS rating as a cudgel to get free work from freelancers, the JSS has an uncertain meaning.

 

For example, does Upwork have evidence that a freelancer with a JSS rating of 90 will perform substantially better than another freelancer with a rating of "only" 89? If not, why does Upwork default to a search value for this at 90 for new projects?

 

Only one thing is for sure - no other useful rating system that scores from 1 to 100 tells its users that anything below a rating of 90 is in some way an indication of failure.

 

 

jbatisla-ong
Community Member

Sir Brandon, that 4.85 is fine with me... Some client's Upwork is ruder with their ratings on me, Even have to do my best shot on the task. 

 

We really don't have control. But this is life UPWORK. Sometimes we encountered good and bad clients same as you also experience good and bad workers. 

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