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c5f95233
Community Member

How I lost $17,350 to Upwork and a freelancer - Upwork's dirty trick (unlawful in the UK) exposed.

I have used Upwork for several months and always appointed freelancers on a fixed fee contract. However, in February 2019 and agreed to hire him under an hourly contract subject to the freelancer using time tracking. Eventually I hired him at $50 per hour. Upwork was charing my card $2000 per week and I was of the view that the money was kept in escrow. I had no email notifications what so ever from Upwork about hours and I assumed the $2000 was in escrow. The freelancer is from Belarus and turned up in our office in the UK without our knowledge / invitation and to our surprise and said he had a holiday planned and will work from our office for 3 weeks and we permitted. During his time in office, he demonstrated the work in his macbook and was taking a lot of time to deliver small improvements. As we became concerned, he left the UK. I became a bit concenred and contacted Upwork and requested them to remove my card. I was told the card cannot be removed and  immeidately cancelled my card with the bank. Once the payments were declined, Upwork emailed me stating that they have reversed the hours $2800 worth of hours logged by the freelancer was cancelled as the hours logged were manual. I became concerned and then also learnt from Upwork that they have released $17,350 to the freelancer who has not committed any of the code he has written too. I contacted Upwork who attempted to mediate. However, the freelancer informed Upwork that until and unless I pay the $2800 cancelled by Upwork for manual hours, he will not provide the code and Upwork offered me $480 compensation for my loss of $17,350 - which is somehting I rejected. 

 

I then spoke to my bank and disputed payments with my credit card company. Interestingly, Upwork challenged the dispute stating the Work was in fact delivered by the freelancer and provided screenshots of my login history and then separately stated that the I failed to review the worksheet and disptue the hours within 5 days of the invoice and therefore they released the monies to the freelancer. 

 

I requested Upwork to advise where do I go from here and the response received from Uowork is simply we can't respond until and unless we have a Subpoena and keep repeating the same without any regard for the amount of money I have lost. 

 

From the freelancers account, between February 2019 to June 2019, he has earned 920 hours between two clients (one of them is us) and this is highly suspecious. I understand from the other client that Upwork has suspended the freelancers account. Howveer, Upwork is not taking any responsibility or steps to give me any update / steps I should take to recover the monies. 

 

Update (23 Oct 2019)

Following the incident, I have been working with an advisor to get down to the bottom of this. During the term of the above incident (towards the end), I also hired two other freelancers under a fixed hour agreement for a defined small peace of work (Agreed amounts were $52.50 and $600). I also a had written agreement (in upwork chat) with both the freelancers that if they do not deliver the work within the agreed hours and deliver the working modeuls, no payments would be made. The freelancers logged the hours and Upwork released $52.50 and $600 respectively to both freelancers from my escrow account. Sadly both the freelancers failed to complete the modules and I learnt that Upwork has released the money to them. I spoke to both the freelancers and both agreed that they will return the moneies to Upwork and Upwork did nothing. Subsequently I had to chargeback along with the above payments. 

 

As soon as the chareback was requested, Upwork wrote to both the freelancers stating that their hours do not qualify for payment protection and deducted the amouunts respectively - both the freelancers consented as agreed with me. 

 

Now, Upwork informed my bank that the work was delivered by both the freelancers and disputed the chargeback. Puzzled by this I wrote to Upwork's executive team and a lady called Katt from Executive Esclations exposed what Upwork is really about. 

 

**Edited for Community Guidelines**

 

- Freelancers agreed that the work was not delivered and returned the money to Upwork

- I request a charge back. Upwork emails the Freelancers confirming that their hours do not qualify for payment protection and keeps the money with them. 

- Upwork informs my bank that the services were delivered and I accetped - a false statement 

- Upwork then advises that chargeback is against their terms of service and therefore they will attempt to recoup funds in order to re-pay freelancers. 

 

Cardholders in the UK do have the rights under section 75 of the consumer credit act 1974. Upwork is ignorant enough to think that their terms (if its true) can supersede the law of a land. 

 

 

45 REPLIES 45
prestonhunter
Community Member

re: "Upwork... stated that the I failed to review the worksheet and disptue the hours within 5 days of the invoice and therefore they released the monies to the freelancer."

 

Upwork said that you did not review worksheets/work diaries and dispute the freelancer's billing within the dispute period.

 

Is Upwork incorrect about this?

 

re: "I became concerned and then also learnt from Upwork that they have released $17,350 to the freelancer who has not committed any of the code he has written..."

 

For future reference, and/or for the benefit of any other clients reading this:

 

The code management strategy you used on this project was insufficient.

 

As a project owner, you should require that freelancers who do programming for you provide source code to you in a way that you receive the source code continually and completely, in a way that you have control over. You should be able to copy any source code you are paying for to a repository location or server that you have access to, which the developer himself can not access and (preferably) does not even know about.

 

It is not adviseable to pay a freelancer for work which he is not providing to you every week (or preferably: every day).

Dear Preston,

This is not about whether Upwork is right or not. Clearly I have been scammed by a freelancer and upwork profited from it. Yet upwork is refusing to provide any details and insisting on me serving a subpoena. A freelander has blackmailed me through upwork clearly after scamming me and upwork tolerating such conducts.

For the avoidance of doubt, given my previous contracts thorigj upwork, I wasnt aware that there an automation payment terms. Upwork did not make it clear. Further, I also had nothing to review. No time tracking information is available to date aa agreed and I am simply told that all the hours are manual. I just see 8 fixed hours being added to each day - not even practical for someone to code for 8 hours non stop. In addition, I changed my email a year ago and upwork sending the invoice relatwd emails to my old email. Upwor also confirmed that it was due to an issue in their system.

I trust this makes sense.

It would be great if someone can really say how I could recover the monies and prevent this scammer from cheating others - clearly it appears Upwork takes not responsibility and will profit from such scams.

Yes, what you saying does make sense.


I am very sorry to hear that you had a disappointing experience while using Upwork.

 

re: "For the avoidance of doubt, given my previous contracts through upwork, I wasnt aware that there was an automation of payment terms. Upwork did not make it clear."

 

What is interesting is this: This morning - hours before you created this thread recounting your experience - I was thinking about creating a new thread asking for an open discussion about whether Upwork's current messaging to clients is so inadequate in some aspects that it is causing some real problems.

 

Your post has convinced me that this is the case. I probably will create a thread to ask for some discussion about this topic.

 

I believe that too many clients have had negative experiences similar to yours because they have not sufficiently understood how Upwork works.

 

It is all well and good to tell someone in hindsight that they should have "read the instructions." But I think that is a completely inadequate response. You are NOT the only client who has expressed frustration regarding a project that cost significant money and did not end up with them achieving the results they expected.

 

I think something SHOULD be changed so that clients understand the Upwork user interface and system better, and so that clients have are more informed about the limitations of the system.

I Agree with you. However, I do not necessarily believe that upwork is an organisation that is ready to learn from clients experiences and improve its services. Instead it is trying to ensure their profit is protected at any cost, even if it is illegal. I am in fact talking to the regulators given the poor and ignorance response I have had from upwork's executive team when they realised that I have been scammed.

Notably, I was told that I agreed to waive my right to dispute payments with my card company. While I do not see this in the terms the shared with me, this opens a larger debate for me. Section 75 of the Consumer Cresit Act in the UK not only gives me the right but also puts the card company / bank severely responsible. If what upwork saying is true, then their terms and conditions should be challenged and the question is whether upwork can be trusted to make such steps if we spend time trying to being this issue to their attention.
jodypm
Community Member

Hi S S,

 

Like Preston, I am also very sorry to hear that you've had this experience on Upwork and I am sure that coupled with the financial loss, it's proving to be more and more troublesome.

 

I strongly believe that both Preston's and Valeria's responses are truly full of sincerity and I hope that from these responses you can at least take away that most of us indeed care about clients on Upwork and would never do anything to jeopardize the trust or good-standing that as freelancers we've worked hard to build up.

 

That being said, may I offer a little bit of advice from my own experiences? Having worked on a lot of projects remotely, and having been part of teams large and small across the globe, the one thing that I learned early on, was that under no circumstances should a project of any significance be devoid of a diligent and professional project manager - preferably a PM who also has a strong senior developer or CTO background. Additionally, as Preston alluded, you should have a rigorous and consistent code checking mechanism in place, and there's nothing better to do that with than getting a Git (Distributed Version Control) set up (e.g., Github).

 

These are just my two cents (one penny on the PM and one on the Git), and I know that you didn't ask for this advice, but I sincerely hope that my words, as well as the words and confidence of others will see you through this disturbing matter.

 

I wish you the very best of success with all your future projects.

 

Best regards,

 

Jody PM

kochubei_valeria
Community Member

Hi S S,

 

I'm sorry to hear you've had a negative experience hiring freelancers on Upwork. While we won't be able to discuss the details here in public Community as private information may be involved, I checked and see that the team has been assisting and communicating with you via this ticket. I'll also follow up with them about your case.

 

Thank you.

~ Valeria
Upwork

Dear Valeria,

Thank you for your reply. I am not sure what you meant by providing assistance. All what I have been repeatedly told is to send a Subpoena. If that's what an assistance then yes I have been provided assistance.

To me this is another trick by Upwork to keep the profit they earned from scams.

Thank you
joansands
Community Member

Hello SS - What I don't understand is why you hired someone at $50 per hour and then assumed the money was being held in escrow? 

Dear Joan,

My understanding was that upwork charges the money, keep it until I get to review the hours tracked and work delivered and like always I need to login to authorise the payment to be released. Even the invoices given by upwork didn't state that these payments were for the concerned freelander and I had no information what so ever from upwork that the payments were being released.

Upwork did confirm that the money was kept in escrow and given the fact that I did not review and dispute the tracking information that was never available to me withinn 5 days, upwork released the payment to the freelancer.

I completely understand Joan's curiosity about this.

 

But someone like Joan has a great deal of experience using Upwork.

 

I am not sure if someone like her or myself are truly capable of looking at Upwork with fresh eyes and seeing how confusing things might be for someone who is new to the system.

 

S S had used fixed-price contracts, but was new to using hourly contracts. That experience with fixed-price contracts actually proved to be a hinderance to understanding what was happening with an hourly contract.

 

As a forum moderator has pointed out, this situation is already being handled by Upwork customer service and Upwork officials are not going to comment on details here in the public thread.

 

I hope people won't "pile on" to point out mistakes that were made.

 

S S:

Are there any additional questions that you have about how Upwork works? Or questions about how you can accomplish your goals in the future? Or even any questions you asked already in this thread that you feel haven't been answered?

Dear Preston,

 

Thank you. It is in fact not true that Upwork is assisting me with this. Upwork requires me to spend money on a lawyer and send them a subpoena. 

jr-translation
Community Member

However, the freelancer informed Upwork that until and unless I pay the $2800 cancelled by Upwork for manual hours, he will not provide the code and Upwork offered me $480 compensation for my loss of $17,350 - which is somehting I rejected.

 

The OP owns the work done by the freelancer minus the manual time. The freelancer has no right to hold the work done and paid so far hostage. If the freelancer clearly stated that he did the work but refuses to hand it over unless manual hours are paid as well, it is an issue UW has to react to.

There are faults on the OPs side, like not checking the time sheets, misunderstanding hourly contracts, etc.

When Upwork mediator contacted the the freelancer, the freelancer wrote to Upwork stating until and unless he is paid for the manual hours he will not release the code he has received the payment for. Upwork's medator wanted me to consider paying and when I refused i was offered a compensation of $480 as a goodwill. 

 

This is why I am of the view Upwork is profiting from scams and will not change. 

re: “It is in fact not true that Upwork is assisting me with this. Upwork requires me to spend money on a lawyer and send them a subpoena.”

 

S S: You are right. I should not have said that Upwork is “assisting” you, because clearly Upwork is not “assisting you by doing exactly what you want them to do.”

 

I should have said that there is an existing customer support ticket for this matter.

 

I do NOT recommend that you spend money on a lawyer. A lawyer does not have the source code for your project and can not produce such. Upwork - even if presented with a subpoena - does not have your source code and can not produce such.

 

A very inexpensive thing for you to do is to ask questions here in the Forum to help you understand your situation better. And to help you understand how you can be more successful in the future.

 

But if your purpose here is simply to share your story, I don’t think anyone should pressure you to ask additional questions. Even though I will ask a couple questions below, I am only doing so in order to help you. You should not feel like you need to answer those questions. (I am simply another Upwork user. I don’t represent Upwork or anyone but myself.)

 

Some of the mistakes made in this situation have already been pointed out.

 

I am certain that when you work on projects of this size and scope in the future, that you will:

 

- work with an independent project manager

- use an adequate code management system

- check work diaries

 

One question I am not certain you have answered is this:

Did the freelancer you hired ACTUALLY create the source code for the project? And that source code COULD be used by project? Or was everything fake?

 

I ask this because you said that you saw the work demonstrated and indicated that you thought the freelancer was doing real work. If the freelancer did real work, then it would be desirable for you to obtain that work, something you prevented from happening by taking action to cause Upwork to refund the manual time. But if the freelancer did NOT do real work, then there would be no particular benefit on your part to trying to obtain source code files from him.

 

Are you even interested in obtaining the source code files created by the freelancer? Or do you simply want to share your experience and move on?

SS

 

I think you have made some very bad judgement calls, but in your shoes I would be as mad as fire too. How much would it cost you to subpoena Upwork? If it is only part of what has been stolen from you, I would take CS's advice and go for it. 

 

That is a lot of dosh. 

Okay, if I summarize correctly, there are basically two issues:

 

1. You didn't read the TOS thoroughly enough to understand how hourly contracts work. I say this because I've worked with brand-spanking new to UpWork clients who understood they were being charged weekly and had to review or dispute weekly. That sucks. I know we all have done that, from time to time, not fully read TOS, and gotten screwed. I'm sorry it happened to you, hopefully you'll either review fully next time or stick to fixed price since it seems to work for you. 

 

2. FL is holding code hostage. I am not a programmer, but someone in another thread schooled me that often the code has to be written as a deliverable. Was it a deliverable in your project? That could make a difference in how UW is responding. Regardless, it does seem like all the reputable programmers here provide the code without this drama. And of course, as a writer, I provide all my Word or text files for clients so they can use/edit/change at any future date at their desire. 

 

I'm sorry this happened to you. It's a lesson for everyone to read the TOS very thoroughly. 

 

If the code is essential (did they really even do the code?) then maybe paying for a subpoena is worth it? You made mistakes, sure, but even so, if UW was doing their job and making sure only the best FLs were here and not scammers, you wouldn't be in this situation, bc you'd have paid $17k plus with something of excellence to show for it. 

 

In another thread someone mentioned, jokingly, banning all FLs who complain about buying connects. I don't know, but I thought UpWork's game was to have the elite talent crowd here...maybe that's a way to protect clients from scammers like this. I don't really know, but there are clearly problems, and it does seem to me that if UW did more to verify that the FLs accepted here were really the **bleep**, clients would be willing to spend more money. That said, as a FL, I"d like to know the clients are worth something too...

 

And with that said, I will log off and wait for the scathing replies, while I start my third glass of wine...

re: "If the code is essential (did they really even do the code?) then maybe paying for a subpoena is worth it?"

 

Producing a subpoena to present to Upwork does not result in the original poster obtaining any source code.

 

Upwork does not have any of the source code.

 

In the future, this will not be an issue for the original poster, because he will not hire and pay freelancers without obtaining and archiving the source code on a regular basis.

 

As for the current situation:

According to what the client said, the client lost the opportunity to receive the source code when he caused Upwork to refund all manual time logged on the project. The freelancer - thus deprived of a large amount of money he had earned for working on the project - decided to play hardball.

 

A possible explanation of precisely what happened is this: The freelancer invoked (whether implicitly or explicitly) Upwork's own ToS clause that stipulates that the work freelancers do on a project does not belong to the client unless the client pays fully for that work.

 

https://www.upwork.com/legal#optional-service-contract-terms

 

Screen Shot 2019-10-01 at 10.25.54 PM.png

 

None of this is to say that the freelancer's actions were "right" or "wrong." We are simply trying to understand the freelancer's rationale. (If the freelancer is not simply an outright scammer, that is.) At the same time, we are trying to understand the reasons for Upwork's actions.

 

Given the fact that Upwork does not have possession of any source code, it would seem that the original poster (the client) is faced with two possible choices:

 

a) return the money ($2800) to the freelancer (money that the freelancer feels was stolen from him by the client), and thus receive the source code

[or]

b) move forward without obtaining the source code

 

Remember: We have not heard the freelancer's side at all. So we can not know for certain what the freelancer is thinking.

 

It is possible that the freelancer is wondering: "I worked hard to create this source code for the client. The client spent nearly $20,000 on this. Now the client wants to lose $17,350 worth of work for the sake of just $2800? Why doesn't the client simply pay me what he owes me and thus receive all $20,000 worth of source code?"

 

But there is another aspect of this situation which is not completely clear: What precisely IS the nature of the source code? The client said he saw the source code demonstrated on the freelancer's laptop computer. But the client has never seen the actual source code or had a knowledgeable third-party programmer examine it. We don't know how the source code should be categorized. Is it:

 

a) excellent, high-quality source code, probably worth more than the client has actually paid thus far

b) pure vaporware... the freelancer just showed fake screens and mock-ups and never produced any usable source code

c) somewhere between these extremes

 

If we know for certain that the source code is not usable at all, then it would make no sense to put any effort or expense into obtaining it.

 

But what if the source code IS functional and useable? If that's the case, what is the smart move? To start over? Or to try to obtain the source code?

kat303
Community Member

I am sorry to hear about this. $17k is a lot of money to pay and have absolutely nothing to show for it. 

 

Just some advice.for the future. - On fixed rate jobs, money is held in escrow until the deliverable of the job or milestone is sent to you. Once you get that, you have 14 days in which to look it over and approve the result. At that point you release the funds in escrow. 

For fixed rate contracts you pay for the WORK that the freelancer does. If they don't deliver work, you just don't pay. If the work is full of errors, you request that those errors be fixed. Also, if the freelancer delivers work through the Submit Work/Request payment button and the work is not complete or full of errors, you dispute that request 

 

On hourly jobs, you pay for the hours the freelancer works, not for the work produced. That does not mean you shouldn't get work while the freelancer is doing. You can request that they send what they are doing every XX days. If they don't, if you see it's full of bugs etc, you can close the contract right then and there, and you don't need a reason to do that.  At the beginning of the week, you have 4 or 5 (can't remember) to look over the work before your credit card is charged. 

For hourly contract a client only pays for hours that are tracked using the Tracker. that show reasonable activity and where notes are entered into the screenshots the Tracker takes. Clients do not have to pay for manual hours, hours that show the freelancer doing something else besides working on a clients job. and unusual low or high keystroke activity. 

 

The BEST chance of getting at least some work, was when the freelancer show up in person at your offices. Face to face you couldn't have asked for a better opportunity. 

 

I hope, some way that you can get at least some of your money back. But I have no advice as to how. The only thing I can say, is to do what Upwork told you to making sure you understand 110% what Upwork told you and what actions will be taken if you do that (subpoena ) and what outcome might happen. I would hate for you to spend more money getting a lawyer/subpoena  and find out you misunderstood what Upwork said to you, or that the outcome is like 0 to none that anything can come out of that if you  do go that route. 

 

As for the source code, - it depends on the freelancer and every freelancer should stipulate in their contract that the source code is included in the price of the job. Some freelancer, charge extra for it, some will charge but include it in their proposal amount, and some freelancers will include it (no charge) as part of the work. 

Amanda wrote: "...but someone in another thread schooled me that often the code has to be written as a deliverable. Was it a deliverable in your project?"

 

Kathy wrote: "As for the source code, - it depends on the freelancer and every freelancer should stipulate in their contract that the source code is included in the price of the job."

 

I disagree that this is an applicable question in this specific situation.

 

If this was a fixed-price contract, then yes: source code would need to be specified as a deliverable.

 

But because this was done as an hourly contract:

I have no concept of delivering the source code being in any way "optional."

 

I do not believe that there is any "wiggle room" or "gray area" in Upwork's ToS about this: My understanding is that with an hourly contract, all work produced while logging time belongs to the client. It was inappropriate for the freelancer to EVER have ANY work in his possession that was not immediately and completely delivered to the client.

 

A responsible, ethical Upwork freelancer doing development work on behalf of a client SHOULD MAKE SURE THIS HAPPENS even if the client does not ask for it.

 

I believe that if a client decides to fire a freelancer AT ANY TIME, for any reason at all, that all work done in an hourly contract belongs to the client. Ideally, it should be physically impossible for a freelancer to withhold any source code from the client - even if the relationship goes south... because the client has archived the source in a place inaccessible to the freelancer.

re: "I hope, some way that you can get at least some of your money back. But I have no advice as to how. The only thing I can say, is to do what Upwork told you to making sure you understand 110% what Upwork told you and what actions will be taken if you do that (subpoena ) and what outcome might happen."

 

It was my understanding that Upwork was telling the client that if the client produced a subpoena, then Upwork would be willing to answer additional questions.

 

I didn't get the sense that Upwork was in any way offering money to the client. (Aside from $480, which the client rejected).

 

Upwork doesn't have the client's money. The money has already been withdrawn by the freelancer.

Preston, You are totally correct concerning source code in relation to Hourly contracts. I should have mentioned that. In reality, for hourly jobs, a client IS paying for the source code. because they are paying for the hours the freelancer worked on the source code. So, if the freelancer correctly logged in his hours then the source code belongs to the client, if the client payed for those specific hours. But the client should not have to pay extra, such as additional manual hours or a bonus for the freelancer to deliver that source code since the client already paid for those hours.The client should check the screen shots to see if any show that the freelancer was working AND loging in hours for the source code. 

 

As for the subpoena, that's between the client and freelancer, and regardless or what Upwork did in the defense of the freelancer, the client should continue communications with his bank/charge card company and present evidence that he (the client) has and not really rely on what Upwork presented. 

Some of these things are tough for someone like myself to see.

 

As a freelancer and programmer, I really hate it when clients have problems like this. These are problems that are so easily avoided... if a client understands how things work beforehand.

 

But AFTER things have gone south like this... not everything is so easily fixed.

 

I honestly don't know if there is anything Upwork could do that it is not already doing. On the face of it... I think the way an hourly contract works is very straightfoward. But here we have a clear, real-life example of a client who was completely unaware of how things work.

 

I'm still thinking about this and similar situations and do not yet have any suggestions for how these types of problems can be avoided.


Preston H wrote:

Some of these things are tough for someone like myself to see.

 

As a freelancer and programmer, I really hate it when clients have problems like this. These are problems that are so easily avoided... if a client understands how things work beforehand.

 

But AFTER things have gone south like this... not everything is so easily fixed.

 

I honestly don't know if there is anything Upwork could do that it is not already doing. On the face of it... I think the way an hourly contract works is very straightfoward. But here we have a clear, real-life example of a client who was completely unaware of how things work.

 

I'm still thinking about this and similar situations and do not yet have any suggestions for how these types of problems can be avoided.


Except that plenty of clients and FLs understand perfectly how hourly contracts work without ever visiting the forums. In the end, a client awarded a contract without understanding his own contract and allowed himself to get screwed. There were plenty of reasonable ways to prevent this from happening along the way. It's very unfortunate, and I do feel badly for the client here, but I would never hook my CC up to hourly work without knowing exactly how to dispute it and when. 

A few facts again:

1. I always hired freelancers on fixed fee and once u have ur credit card added, you cant remove it from upwork. Upwork point blank said credit card cant be removed even after issuing a written request - this clearly is in breach of my privacy

2. Upwork lied to the bank and simply disputed the charge back stating the work was delivered and that the freelancer was like an employee on my payroll. I did ask UW executive complaint handler why they would lie. The response I received after several days is that I agreed to not to dispute the payment with the bank and as such I am in breach of their terms of service. Section 75 consumer Ceesit act 1974 in the UK gives me the right and put the credit card company severely responsible. However, upwork believes their terms and conditions supersedes the law.

I am a victim of this scam and I do understand that I should have checked the FL carefully. But all of you are missing the point. The FL could be out there scamming someone else. What has upwork done to ensure he is accountable? Upwork wouldn't respond to my request relating to this.

Therefore I concluded that upwork is designed to profit from scams and have no interest in accountability.

tta192
Community Member

What was your understanding about the maximum period of time money would stay in escrow?


S S wrote:
A few facts again:

1. I always hired freelancers on fixed fee and once u have ur credit card added, you cant remove it from upwork. Upwork point blank said credit card cant be removed even after issuing a written request - this clearly is in breach of my privacy

2. Upwork lied to the bank and simply disputed the charge back stating the work was delivered and that the freelancer was like an employee on my payroll. I did ask UW executive complaint handler why they would lie. The response I received after several days is that I agreed to not to dispute the payment with the bank and as such I am in breach of their terms of service. Section 75 consumer Ceesit act 1974 in the UK gives me the right and put the credit card company severely responsible. However, upwork believes their terms and conditions supersedes the law.

I am a victim of this scam and I do understand that I should have checked the FL carefully. But all of you are missing the point. The FL could be out there scamming someone else. What has upwork done to ensure he is accountable? Upwork wouldn't respond to my request relating to this.

Therefore I concluded that upwork is designed to profit from scams and have no interest in accountability.


think we all agree with you that the FL owes you the code, and this FL should be banned. No disagreement there. 

 

As to the other issues, with the credit card and TOS, I'm not sure. UpWork is pretty clear that FLs aren't employees, so it seems odd that they would state such to your CC company. As to TOS and contracts, all companies think their contracts are iron-clad, but we wouldn't have these cases going to court if that were the case, would we? 

 

I just hope this won't deter clients away from hourly contracts. They can work very well if both parties understand how the function works and when an hourly contract wil benefit them. 

 

re: “think we all agree with you that the FL owes you the code, and this FL should be banned.”

 

According to the client, the freelancer has already been banned.

 

So if that was one of his goals, then that has already been accomplished.

 

S S said that is what another client who hired this freelancer told him. The client wrote in his original post:

 

”From the freelancers account, between February 2019 to June 2019, he has earned 920 hours between two clients (one of them is us) and this is highly suspecious. I understand from the other client that Upwork has suspended the freelancers account.”

 

Kind of an unrelated topic, but I did wonder why the client thought that it was “highly suspicious” that a freelancer worked an average of 46 hours per week over the course of five months. I would imagine that many freelancers on Upwork (and many people elsewhere) work 46 or more hours per week.

why didn't they check the age of the freelancer in upwork. and how many happy clients he have. and always check the country of the freelancer too. you should have taken weekly source codes from the programmer. or when he reached 1000-2000$ bill. i know few people are doing 300$ per hour programming jobs. but i don't thinks this one was something like that.

 

Edit: he was nothing but conman. when he visited your office, you should have know. a normal freelancer, don't like to visit any office. we can't breathe in the office atmosphir. thats the reason we are Online Freelancer. hope you  understand now. meeting anyone personaly isn't normal in upwork jobs.


Ali R wrote:

why didn't they check the age of the freelancer in upwork. and how many happy clients he have. and always check the country of the freelancer too. you should have taken weekly source codes from the programmer. or when he reached 1000-2000$ bill. i know few people are doing 300$ per hour programming jobs. but i don't thinks this one was something like that.

 

Edit: he was nothing but conman. when he visited your office, you should have know. a normal freelancer, don't like to visit any office. we can't breathe in the office atmosphir. thats the reason we are Online Freelancer. hope you  understand now. meeting anyone personaly isn't normal in upwork jobs.


I guess I am not normal because I like to meet my clients. I also like my office. I guess it just depends on the office.

I updated the issue with latest discoveries. Upwork is clearly not an honest and transparant company. 

So you already knew from the previous experience that UpWork doesn't allow chargebacks, so instead of requesting the FLs give you a refund, you did a chargeback, knowing it's not allowed, and you are mad that UpWork is upholding it's TOS? Chargebacks cost the company money. You could request a refund from the freelancers and they could release the funds back to you or reimburse  you the refund without it being a chargeback. 

 

I think you just need to stop using UpWork since you don't want to abide by the TOS. 

Amanda, I dont think you understood the factual before making your comments. The reason upwork isnt giving me the money that was returned by the freelancer is because I changed back following the blackmail by one of the freelancer over the $17350, a conduct tolerated by the freelancer.

I have stopped using upwork and will fight to expose how upwork is profiting from scams. Had upwork took necessary steps to resolve the matter and responded to my questions I wouldn't have gone with the last resort, a legal remedy available to me regardless of the terms they insist.

I am really surprised that you fail to see the dubious conduct of upwork.

I understand. And, sure, it's unfair, but you should have reviewed the work logs, you could have opened disputes, etc. You didn't fully read the TOS and how the site works and so you did these chargebacks instead of going through UpWork's processes, and now you want to blame UpWork for your failure to manage a freelancer. Are all of UpWork's TOS fair? No, because they are trying to make money like anyone else, but you failed to use the site as intended. For example, with the most recent payments, you have like 2 weeks to review that work and release funds from escrow. You say those were released but you weren't happy with the work, so why didn't you review it before the two weeks were up and either request changes or cancel the contract? 

 

You have an advisor working with you on this, so good luck. Do I personally like all of UpWork's TOS? No, but I want to work through UpWork so I accept that those are the rules. 

I have to agree with Amanda L here. 

You were scammed by an unscrupulous worker, and that's wrong.

But you assumed the money was going to be held in escrow without confirming this was the case, and you let the payments go on for months (feb. to june?) before taking any action.  Then - realizing you were mistaken - you didn't follow upwork's method of dispute.

One thing that I think you're leaving out or not understanding:
If you reversed the charges on your card - you were reversing the charges that upwork charged you - not that the client charged you.

Upwork doesn't have that money from the client just because you did a chargeback.  They already paid that money out to the freelancer.  You essentially tried to force them to give you money they no longer were in possession of - even though they adhered to the rules of the deal you agreed to.

So essentially you're asking upwork to pay you the money they already paid the freelancer - according to the agreement you agreed to - but didn't read in its entirety.   


Now - even if upwork was able to recover the money from the freelancer (which I don't know how they would manage - since the funds were likely directly deposited to a bank account, and I don't believe ach transfers are reversable like that after the fact) - legally they're under no obligation to give it to you.  You agreed to their rules when you used their service.

-If- they had the funds back from the freelancer , should they give it to on moral grounds?  Absolutely.  But I don't think anyone here expects a large business to return money they aren't required to return just because it's the ethical thing to do.

I don't agree with many of upwork's policies - I think a lot of those policies are pure crap.
All I'm saying is this - upwork didn't do anything 'sneaky' here, and they didn't trick you.   They did what they stated they would do, according to guidelines and rules that are readily available to view. 

petra_r
Community Member


Tim S wrote:

I have to agree with Amanda L here.........


9 month old thread...

a_lipsey
Community Member


Petra R wrote:

Tim S wrote:

I have to agree with Amanda L here.........


9 month old thread...


Yes, but he's agreeing with me, so let it go... 🙂 

It is a fairly old thread, Amanda, but I am going to put my two cents in. I am sorry this client lost so much money but I am also sorry, that after all of his mistakes, he is trying to blame Upwork. For instance, why did he ever enter into an hourly contract with manual hours allowed? I am reminded of all the freelancers who try to blame Upwork for the fact they are unable to get jobs here. They never look to their own mistakes. Maybe that is the culture we have become - that people blame others for their own mistakes - or maybe that has always been the case for some people. Whatever - it is a sad state of affairs.

I agree with Joan.

Obviously the original poster (the client who was concerned about "losing" money) made a ton of mistakes. That client used the Upwork system incorrectly.

 

As discussed previously, none of us want that to happen with any contract.

 

We discussed how Upwork could improve its messaging to clients to help eliminate such problems. There are still clients who begin using Upwork with a very distorted idea of what type of service it provides. (For example: Upwork does not provide free project management.) That is not a problem if professional, ethical freelancers guide the new clients in their use of the tool and help them gain an accurate understanding of Upwork. It IS a problem when clients encounter dishonest or confused freelancers.

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