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66810ab0
Community Member

Low-balling, misleading bids on jobs

I am rather disappointed that this keeps happening to me on Upwork. I post jobs that ask for an illustrator to do an illustration or two with some specifics, and I ask the artists bidding to provide examples of their work related to what I'm asking. I find an artist or two that I like based on their example artwork, and they've bid at or close to the budgeted price. When I message them about working on the project and point to something in their portfolio that they linked or an example image that they have provided, I'm told that that style or level of work isn't what I would get for the bid and I have to go with something simpler that either wasn't linked or wasn't stipulated in their bid.

Is there a rule that artists must provide an example of the level of the work they will do for the price that they've bid, or at least, honor their bids if they link their entire portfolio and don't specify which part of their portfolio is the level of detail/style that they're offering with their bid? This seems to be very deceptive of artists to do and I've had to deal with it multiple times now.

26 REPLIES 26
prestonhunter
Community Member

No, there are no rules governing the minutiae of how artists bid on jobs. Nor is any rule like that actually workable. 

 

Keep in mind that this is not a site for commissioning artwork. This is a general use site for all types of freelancing work.

 

I do not have a specific solution for you. But have you tried posting these jobs as hourly contracts?

 

I have hired a lot of artists on Upwork using hourly contracts, and that seems like it would allow you to sidestep such issues.

The main problem with posting hourly rate jobs is that there's no up-front knowledge of how much it will cost to do the work, so instead of $40/hr. with "maybe 3-5 hours", I'd rather know how much it will cost based on the artist knowing how long it should take to complete an illustration of a certain type.

 

I feel like a rule stating that you can't tell people to view your portfolio to see the kind of work you do and then say most of it is off-limits for the bid you offered should be obvious and is very workable. Otherwise an artist is intentionally low-balling to get a bid and then either demanding more money to start the job or misleading as to what the artist is offering to do and isn't willing to do for the bid.

re: "I feel like a rule stating that you can't tell people to view your portfolio to see the kind of work you do and then say most of it is off-limits for the bid you offered should be obvious and is very workable."

 

You may stipulate this rule in your job postings.

 

Upwork will not be instituting this rule generally.

In my opinion those who say you should go with something simpler, even when sending a sample that is close to your needs, can't actually do what is in that sample. They just stole it from someone else. They ask for more money knowing that you will probably say no and will go with "something simpler" they can do.

 

Either they are posing or they are not professional enough to go up front with the real price.

 

As for the portfolio, if you ask for the whole portfolio of course the pieces featured have different prices because some are more demanding than others.


Sergio S wrote:

In my opinion those who say you should go with something simpler, even when sending a sample that is close to your needs, can't actually do what is in that sample. They just stole it from someone else. They ask for more money knowing that you will probably say no and will go with "something simpler" they can do.

 

That's kind of an absurd overstatement. It doesn't sound like these illustrators are even saying he should go with something simpler. It sounds like they're saying if he wants something comparable to the sample he's pointing to, it will cost more. Which is perfectly reasonable. Samples are designed to show the client what you're capable of. Where he/she decides to shop within that range is an entirely different question. And, it's often difficult to tell from a job posting exactly what level of detail, etc. the client is looking for.

That’s the problem. If I ask specifically for an artist to link me a sample of work that is like what I am asking for, and they just send me a link to their gallery, to me, the artist is saying their entire gallery is what they’re offering.

I attach samples of what I am looking for and say clearly what I expect. And I feel either artists want the job and feel that they can raise prices after they get the job, or they’re trying to get the job based on art they know will win them the job but they were not willing to do.

Either way, Upwork should be against artists doing this.


Christopher B wrote:
That’s the problem. If I ask specifically for an artist to link me a sample of work that is like what I am asking for, and they just send me a link to their gallery, to me, the artist is saying their entire gallery is what they’re offering.

It sounds like maybe since you're looking for lower-end, cheaper work, it just isn't work that people are showcasing in their profiles. 

 

Wow, you’re extremely rude.

 

i just said that I ask for example work based on the request in the job, and the artist links his or her gallery as this example and makes the bid, but you think that I am just not offering enough money?

 

Then the artist shouldn’t bid with the example of their professional gallery.


Christopher B wrote:

Wow, you’re extremely rude.

 

i just said that I ask for example work based on the request in the job, and the artist links his or her gallery as this example and makes the bid, but you think that I am just not offering enough money?

 

Then the artist shouldn’t bid with the example of their professional gallery.


I think that if more than one artist has told you that your budget won't allow for the type of work you're seeing in his/her portfolio, then you're not willing to spend enough money to get the type of work that a skilled artist would typically showcase. Obviously. And I don't think there's anything rude about it.

 

You're asked for a sample of what your budget will buy, but would you really expect skilled artists who typically do higher-end work to take the time to create a sample at the level you're shopping for just to bid on your job? 

Okay, the two gurus posting here must be trolling...

 

Look, I have no idea why you aren’t understanding this.

 

The artist posts either sample images or says that their gallery shows the work that I am looking for.

 

The artist makes the bid.

 

I like the sample work attached or linked, for the bid that the artist made.

 

Artist says that the sample or pieces from the gallery aren’t the level that the artist was willing to do for the bid amount and it will be much more money to get that type of art.

 

Even though what I selected was used as examples of the work that the artist offered for the amount bid.

 

So please, Upwork Community Guru, explain how your condescension and inability to grasp this issue of artists being deceptive by lowballing to get a job then demanding more money for the level of work offered as an example is being helpful here?

You're asked for a sample of what your budget will buy, but would you really expect skilled artists who typically do higher-end work to take the time to create a sample at the level you're shopping for just to bid on your job?“

 

Then why are they bidding a lower amount while using the higher-end art to get the job, especially if they lack examples for the price point I am requesting? I’m still waiting to hear how you think that this is acceptable behavior.


Christopher B wrote:

I’m still waiting to hear how you think that this is acceptable behavior.


You're not, though. We're all explaining to you over and over and over again why we think you're misreading the situation, and you just keep walking us through your story and then leaping 17 steps to the magical conclusion that you're being deceived. You are clearly not open to understanding what is actually happening. It's fair that you don't care why it happens and you just want things to be how you want them, but I don't understand why you keep asking for an explanation over and over again when you're making no effort to take in or engage with the ones you're getting.

Then help me to understand.

 

I give an example of the style that I want.

I specify the dimensions, color or not, background or not, etc., and some detail of poses and such.

i provide example references of the character.

i post a budget.

i ask potential artists to provide an example of the work I am looking for.

 

Follow all of that? So far, both of you gurus seem to be ignoring some or all of that.

 

Now, an artist makes a bid at or around the budget. For the example, provides example art as attachments or links their professional gallery or portfolio to show what they can do.

Artist never specifies in the bid that the examples aren’t the level he or she is willing to do or only part or none of the gallery/portfolio is what is offered.

 

I either offer the job to the artist at the bid price, or inquire about the artist’s bid, and point to the artwork I think is the style best suited based solely on the attached art or linked gallery/portfolio.

Artist responds that if I want that level of art, it will cost at least twice as much.

 

How is this not the artist being deceptive?

 

How is this me demanding artists work for cheap?


Christopher B wrote:

The main problem with posting hourly rate jobs is that there's no up-front knowledge of how much it will cost to do the work, so instead of $40/hr. with "maybe 3-5 hours", I'd rather know how much it will cost based on the artist knowing how long it should take to complete an illustration of a certain type.

 

I feel like a rule stating that you can't tell people to view your portfolio to see the kind of work you do and then say most of it is off-limits for the bid you offered should be obvious and is very workable. Otherwise an artist is intentionally low-balling to get a bid and then either demanding more money to start the job or misleading as to what the artist is offering to do and isn't willing to do for the bid.


I am not an artist but it is very common with what I do that a potential client has no idea the scope of what they are asking for.  Since you seem to be encountering this over and over it seems likely what you want and what you asked for are turning out to be more complicated than you thought.

 

You are stating that the freelancer is low-balling but could be that after they understand what your real needs are they are saying "it will take X to do that"?  You may not see this but it takes real cahoochies to say that back to a client.  You largely know that the client will not accept it and move on but you still have to have the integrity to stand up for what you think the work is worth.  You may not see that as worthy of respect but I do.

 

If I were you, rather than try to understand what their motivation is for asking for more money I would evalute what you know about the freelancer in question, if you like the work that was presented, and if you feel the can get it done.  If the money they want is reasonable to you then pull the trigger on it.  If you can't afford it then go somewhere else.  If you can find someone that can provide the same value to you for cheaper then go for that.

Except that I state what I am looking for. Finished work, colors, size, background or not, even references and either links or attachments of the style I was hoping for, and then the budget.

I am very transparent about it. And when I first started using Upwork, this wasn’t a problem.

Now I am just finding more often that artists try to win jobs with their best art and either ask for more money to get that style than their bid was for, or they intended for simpler work without disclosing it in their bid.


Christopher B wrote:
Except that I state what I am looking for. Finished work, colors, size, background or not, even references and either links or attachments of the style I was hoping for, and then the budget.

I am very transparent about it. And when I first started using Upwork, this wasn’t a problem.

Now I am just finding more often that artists try to win jobs with their best art and either ask for more money to get that style than their bid was for, or they intended for simpler work without disclosing it in their bid.

I get it.  You are saying I want to pay $X for this and people are saying no, it will cost you $Y.  

 

I don't know why you think it should be X, the fact that it once was that in the past means nothing to me.  But it would seem that, especially since you said "keeps happening" that the market is telling you that it is Y.  If you are right then surely someone will come along that will do it for X.  If you are wrong, then you won't get it done until you pay Y.

 

Again not an artist but I myself don't give two figs what a client thinks a bit of work is worth.  I tell others this all the time.  A freelancer should only do work that they think is worth it for them.  A client should engage with the person they believe brings the most value.

 

You can say what you want to pay.  You can say what your budget is.  A freelancer can intial propose that they will do it at that budget but when they make a determination about what you really want they are also free to change their minds.  You are free to tell them you are not interested then.

 

Nobody "must" do anything.

What’s with the rude gurus here?

Don’t get flippant because you aren’t reading the complaints that I have here.

I post a job. I state exactly what I am looking for. I include a sample of the ideal style. I ask the bidder to answer a question that requests samples that fit what I am asking for if they have such samples. I post a budget.

I get quite a few bids. But one or two of these bids will be at or around the budget. These bids say that they’re read the job and want to work on it. They link their entire gallery or portfolio, or post incredibly good art, as the answer to the question regarding samples.

I pick one of these artists and point out the art in the link or samples that work for what I want. The artist tells me that they were not intending to do that level of work for the amount that they bid, but something either not referenced, or a simpler design than the example I had provided.

I’m not telling the artist that their work should be $X instead of $Y. The artist told me that they were willing to do the work for $X until the time that I offer the job or ensure that the example(s) they linked are for $X, then they demand $Y.

That’s the artist being deceptive. Exactly where did I do anything wrong there?

Don’t be rude inventing scenarios that aren’t happening.

CB,

 

Of course you're always welcome to DIY, and in that way you can easily avoid all of these problems.

Great help, folks!

 

Instead of discussing a way that bids on jobs aren’t lowballs meant to extract more money by misrepresentation, I shouldn’t even bother trying to hire on Upwork!


Christopher B wrote:
What’s with the rude gurus here?

Don’t get flippant because you aren’t reading the complaints that I have here.

I post a job. I state exactly what I am looking for. I include a sample of the ideal style. I ask the bidder to answer a question that requests samples that fit what I am asking for if they have such samples. I post a budget.

I get quite a few bids. But one or two of these bids will be at or around the budget. These bids say that they’re read the job and want to work on it. They link their entire gallery or portfolio, or post incredibly good art, as the answer to the question regarding samples.

I pick one of these artists and point out the art in the link or samples that work for what I want. The artist tells me that they were not intending to do that level of work for the amount that they bid, but something either not referenced, or a simpler design than the example I had provided.

I’m not telling the artist that their work should be $X instead of $Y. The artist told me that they were willing to do the work for $X until the time that I offer the job or ensure that the example(s) they linked are for $X, then they demand $Y.

That’s the artist being deceptive. Exactly where did I do anything wrong there?

Don’t be rude inventing scenarios that aren’t happening.

I am just a dude stating my opinion I have no official capacity at Upwork at all but I am free to express my opinion within the rules of the community and I believe that I have done so.

 

I can tell you where I think you went wrong but you aren't listening and have already characterized my response as rude so it's a waste of time.


Tiffany S wrote:

 

That's kind of an absurd overstatement. It doesn't sound like these illustrators are even saying he should go with something simpler. It sounds like they're saying if he wants something comparable to the sample he's pointing to, it will cost more. Which is perfectly reasonable. Samples are designed to show the client what you're capable of. Where he/she decides to shop within that range is an entirely different question. And, it's often difficult to tell from a job posting exactly what level of detail, etc. the client is looking for.


Well, it may sound exaggerated but I believe you misunderstood what I said. I know what samples and portfolio are for, so I agree with you. I am not saying the portfolio is there shouting "I can do all this for $10 (or whatever budget the client states in their job post)" It's obvious that the portfolio showcases different pieces covering a wide range of prices, and I take for granted the OP understands that. But I think the situation here is different.

 

Yesterday I applied to a project where they needed someone to create some writing with a neon effect overlaying a photo. The description and sample provided were very clear, the client knew what he wanted. It was a low budget but I applied anyways saying up front my cost (several times the job post budget) and I also sent two samples showing exactly what I was going to do. My samples matched exactly what they were looking for, according to the sample they provided, that's why I applied even while the budget was not appealing to me. From what the OP is saying I understand the freelancers he finds are doing that but not saying the real cost up front, but instead waiting till the interview stage to increase the price when he/she realizes the client is wrapped around his/her finger. Hence the complaint and why he feels deceived.

Charging freelancers to bid has been an interesting experimentation in human behavior. 

shefen
Community Member

I can see Christopher's point. It does seem like a bait-and-switch, but clarifying the terms of the contact is precisely why there is an interview stage.

 

Pretty much this. I price based on what I think it is worth getting done, and artists can choose whether the price I’m targeting is worth the effort and time.

I have had a job where the freelancer I chose bid much higher than the budget, but I felt that the result would have been much better going with him. And I hired him to do a second piece for me.

Freelancers should be bidding based on the criteria of the job listed, and if they have multiple levels of output, they need to make it clear at what level their bid would be.

Expecting the client to guess what in the portfolio/gallery is the level of output for the bid price is asinine and unprofessional. Especially if the job posting has an example of what output the client wants and that level is available in the gallery/portfolio.

It’s up to the freelancer to bid exactly for the job requested, not something different or change the bid afterwards.

So it sounds like they link you to their whole portfolio or gallery as a sample, and you don't know which ones in the gallery or portfolio were done at your price point. Solution: Ask. Ask them which pieces in the gallery/portfolio were done at your budget amount. If they were all more expensive, then you don't interview them further. If the ones done at that price point aren't to your liking, also move on. 

 

As a grant writer, I'm often asked to see sample grants that I've written, but those grants are not necessarily examples at the same price point. They are examples of my writing style and expertise. Your grant may cost more or less than the sample based on the specifics of your project.  

 

You know you are going to have to interview the freelancer and find out specifics about their bid and what they will do, right? It sort of sounds like you don't want to deal with interviewing, because these are things that any client would do within the interview. Not intending to be rude in that question, I just think that your expectation of how much clarification you will need to do versus how much you might need to do are not in line. 

 

The solution seems to be that you could put in your job post that submitted samples need to be from work done at the same or similar price point, so you don't have to deal with this disconnect. And you could, I think, even add in your application questions a verification that the samples submitted were done at the same price point. You could also request that they attach specific samples and not a portfolio or gallery. That could help you cull it down to the right freelancers. 

 

Personally, I hate getting weblinks of galleries or massive portfolios as a hiring manager. Send me a relevant work sample. On the freelancer side, I'm not going to send you a research publication I've authored when I'm applying for a grant writer job, right? I think what would help you is to be super specific in your work sample request and just pass on anyone who doesn't answer that question appropriately. 

kat303
Community Member

Christopher B. I get what you're saying. Freelancers are strongly encouraged Not to work work for free, such as tests, examples and mockups of the client's actually job. They are told to submit links to files on their computer or they are encouraged to show their portfolio so a client can see the STYLE of their work. And that is exactly what they are probably doing. Their "style" that they are showing you is all they have and those styles of work may be complicated enough to demand a higher price. 

 

I posted a job once and one freelancer linked files from their computer to their proposal. They showed several styles and for each one, they listed the price it would cost. (for a basic pencil drawing it will cost $x, for a charcoal drawing the cost would be $x ,for a colored pencil drawing it will cost $x and the top of the line, if you want it painted it will cost $X) It would be great if every freelancer did that, but usually, in a portfolio a freelancer will show their very best work, You like it, you ask for it, and that work style will cost more because it demands more complicated work then what you posted in your job's description. 

 

You recourse IMO, is, if you see the style you like and tell the freelancer that, that is what you want, and the freelancer tells you the price it would cost you, then Pay that price and you'll get exactly what you want. 

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