Low-balling, misleading bids on jobs

[Christopher B]

Okay, the two gurus posting here must be trolling...

Look, I have no idea why you aren’t understanding this.

The artist posts either sample images or says that their gallery shows the work that I am looking for.

The artist makes the bid.

I like the sample work attached or linked, for the bid that the artist made.

Artist says that the sample or pieces from the gallery aren’t the level that the artist was willing to do for the bid amount and it will be much more money to get that type of art.

Even though what I selected was used as examples of the work that the artist offered for the amount bid.

So please, Upwork Community Guru, explain how your condescension and inability to grasp this issue of artists being deceptive by lowballing to get a job then demanding more money for the level of work offered as an example is being helpful here?

[Christopher B]

“You're asked for a sample of what your budget will buy, but would you really expect skilled artists who typically do higher-end work to take the time to create a sample at the level you're shopping for just to bid on your job?“

Then why are they bidding a lower amount while using the higher-end art to get the job, especially if they lack examples for the price point I am requesting? I’m still waiting to hear how you think that this is acceptable behavior.

[Tiffany S]

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Christopher B wrote:

I’m still waiting to hear how you think that this is acceptable behavior.

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You're not, though. We're all explaining to you over and over and over again why we think you're misreading the situation, and you just keep walking us through your story and then leaping 17 steps to the magical conclusion that you're being deceived. You are clearly not open to understanding what is actually happening. It's fair that you don't care why it happens and you just want things to be how you want them, but I don't understand why you keep asking for an explanation over and over again when you're making no effort to take in or engage with the ones you're getting.

[Christopher B]

Then help me to understand.

I give an example of the style that I want.

I specify the dimensions, color or not, background or not, etc., and some detail of poses and such.

i provide example references of the character.

i post a budget.

i ask potential artists to provide an example of the work I am looking for.

Follow all of that? So far, both of you gurus seem to be ignoring some or all of that.

Now, an artist makes a bid at or around the budget. For the example, provides example art as attachments or links their professional gallery or portfolio to show what they can do.

Artist never specifies in the bid that the examples aren’t the level he or she is willing to do or only part or none of the gallery/portfolio is what is offered.

I either offer the job to the artist at the bid price, or inquire about the artist’s bid, and point to the artwork I think is the style best suited based solely on the attached art or linked gallery/portfolio.

Artist responds that if I want that level of art, it will cost at least twice as much.

How is this not the artist being deceptive?

How is this me demanding artists work for cheap?

[Mark F]

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Christopher B wrote:

The main problem with posting hourly rate jobs is that there's no up-front knowledge of how much it will cost to do the work, so instead of $40/hr. with "maybe 3-5 hours", I'd rather know how much it will cost based on the artist knowing how long it should take to complete an illustration of a certain type.

I feel like a rule stating that you can't tell people to view your portfolio to see the kind of work you do and then say most of it is off-limits for the bid you offered should be obvious and is very workable. Otherwise an artist is intentionally low-balling to get a bid and then either demanding more money to start the job or misleading as to what the artist is offering to do and isn't willing to do for the bid.

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I am not an artist but it is very common with what I do that a potential client has no idea the scope of what they are asking for.  Since you seem to be encountering this over and over it seems likely what you want and what you asked for are turning out to be more complicated than you thought.

You are stating that the freelancer is low-balling but could be that after they understand what your real needs are they are saying "it will take X to do that"?  You may not see this but it takes real cahoochies to say that back to a client.  You largely know that the client will not accept it and move on but you still have to have the integrity to stand up for what you think the work is worth.  You may not see that as worthy of respect but I do.

If I were you, rather than try to understand what their motivation is for asking for more money I would evalute what you know about the freelancer in question, if you like the work that was presented, and if you feel the can get it done.  If the money they want is reasonable to you then pull the trigger on it.  If you can't afford it then go somewhere else.  If you can find someone that can provide the same value to you for cheaper then go for that.

[Christopher B]

Except that I state what I am looking for. Finished work, colors, size, background or not, even references and either links or attachments of the style I was hoping for, and then the budget.

I am very transparent about it. And when I first started using Upwork, this wasn’t a problem.

Now I am just finding more often that artists try to win jobs with their best art and either ask for more money to get that style than their bid was for, or they intended for simpler work without disclosing it in their bid.

[Mark F]

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Christopher B wrote:
Except that I state what I am looking for. Finished work, colors, size, background or not, even references and either links or attachments of the style I was hoping for, and then the budget.

I am very transparent about it. And when I first started using Upwork, this wasn’t a problem.

Now I am just finding more often that artists try to win jobs with their best art and either ask for more money to get that style than their bid was for, or they intended for simpler work without disclosing it in their bid.

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I get it.  You are saying I want to pay $X for this and people are saying no, it will cost you $Y.  

I don't know why you think it should be X, the fact that it once was that in the past means nothing to me.  But it would seem that, especially since you said "keeps happening" that the market is telling you that it is Y.  If you are right then surely someone will come along that will do it for X.  If you are wrong, then you won't get it done until you pay Y.

Again not an artist but I myself don't give two figs what a client thinks a bit of work is worth.  I tell others this all the time.  A freelancer should only do work that they think is worth it for them.  A client should engage with the person they believe brings the most value.

You can say what you want to pay.  You can say what your budget is.  A freelancer can intial propose that they will do it at that budget but when they make a determination about what you really want they are also free to change their minds.  You are free to tell them you are not interested then.

Nobody "must" do anything.

[Christopher B]

What’s with the rude gurus here?

Don’t get flippant because you aren’t reading the complaints that I have here.

I post a job. I state exactly what I am looking for. I include a sample of the ideal style. I ask the bidder to answer a question that requests samples that fit what I am asking for if they have such samples. I post a budget.

I get quite a few bids. But one or two of these bids will be at or around the budget. These bids say that they’re read the job and want to work on it. They link their entire gallery or portfolio, or post incredibly good art, as the answer to the question regarding samples.

I pick one of these artists and point out the art in the link or samples that work for what I want. The artist tells me that they were not intending to do that level of work for the amount that they bid, but something either not referenced, or a simpler design than the example I had provided.

I’m not telling the artist that their work should be $X instead of $Y. The artist told me that they were willing to do the work for $X until the time that I offer the job or ensure that the example(s) they linked are for $X, then they demand $Y.

That’s the artist being deceptive. Exactly where did I do anything wrong there?

Don’t be rude inventing scenarios that aren’t happening.

[william b]

CB,

Of course you're always welcome to DIY, and in that way you can easily avoid all of these problems.

[Christopher B]

Great help, folks!

Instead of discussing a way that bids on jobs aren’t lowballs meant to extract more money by misrepresentation, I shouldn’t even bother trying to hire on Upwork!