Lying, possibly fraud.

[bcf33bca]

I reportred a freelancer for at the very least lying and probably fraud. Upwork team do not seem to care. I was asked for any proof, even though I have it. What does a customer need to do to get a complaint taken seriously.

[petra_r]

---

Stephen S wrote:

I reportred a freelancer for at the very least lying and probably fraud. Upwork team do not seem to care. I was asked for any proof, even though I have it. What does a customer need to do to get a complaint taken seriously.

---

What happened? (without any identifying details that would be against furum rules?)

[prestonhunter]

re: "I reportred a freelancer for at the very least lying and probably fraud."

Petra is correct.

You need to tell us what happened.

"Lying" may be a sin or moral failing, but it is not a reportable offense. Maybe you asked how somebody was and they said "fine," and you found out later they had the flu. They lied. You can't report that to Upwork.

[3d608845]

Hey, I sent a screen shot to upwork of a freelancer ( with his picture and phone number) stating that he doesnt like to message via upwork and wants to keep all converstation off of it, he ripped me off, im old, technologically inept, he told me he would report money i gave him, needless to say, i won the dispute with the bank, and upwork still has him on their platform...................... upwork sucks 

[PradeepH]

Hi Nicole,

Thank you for your message. I am sorry to hear about your experience with a freelancer and how you feel about our review process. I see that your report has been already reviewed by our team and appropriate action has been taken on the reported user as defined in our TOS. We are unable to share our internal investigation process or action taken on other user's accounts further with you for confidentiality purposes. Feel free to message us if you need further assistance.

Thank you.

Pradeep

[a_lipsey]

---

Nicole M wrote:

Hey, I sent a screen shot to upwork of a freelancer ( with his picture and phone number) stating that he doesnt like to message via upwork and wants to keep all converstation off of it, he ripped me off, im old, technologically inept, he told me he would report money i gave him, needless to say, i won the dispute with the bank, and upwork still has him on their platform...................... upwork sucks 

---

Nicole, I am sorry that you had this problem. You must see your part in it though. Upwork TOS is to not communicate off platform until you have a contract in place. It is precisely to provide you with the protection that you didn't have. 

If your assertion that Upwork sucks is because a freelancer broke the TOS and you don't believe they have taken action, well, they also seem to have not booted you either. I'm sure Upwork will take appropriate action against the freelancer, but often screenshots aren't as open and shut as the person who took them thinks they are. It's still circumstantial evidence. 

In the future it would behoove you to follow the TOS of the site so that Upwork can actually protect you. 

[bcf33bca]

Maybe the better decsritption is extreme dishonesty.

The free lancer sent me a message supposedly from his brother teliing me he had been involved in an accident, and was in a brain trauma ward of a hospital. During the next few days, while the freelancer was allegedly in a coma, then in brain surgery, then recovering with no memory, he managed to accept a new job, and log over 20 hours of work. The job was accepted the day of the accident. The client had only joined upwork the day before. I took the screeshots from the current work page. The freelancer later went on to tell me his brother accepted the job on hios behalf, which is a strange action for someone who's brothers life is possibly on the line. There are many other anomoloies during those next few days that raised my suspicions. 

I did eventually get a full refund, but the point is that this type of behaviour is unnacceptable, at least in my opinion, and very unprofessional. The project has a hard deadline, and the freelancer was well aware of it, I even took the time to visit him in his country to discuss the project at length and make sure he had the equipment to carry out the work.

[kochubei_valeria]

Hi Stephen,

I'm sorry you had a negative experience with a freelancer you hired. I found a ticket you had with the team about this issue and see that they have provided all the information about the refund. I also see that they have send the freelancer's account for a review. Unfortunately, for privacy reasons we are unable to share the outcome of such review with other users. I hope you understand.

[bcf33bca]

At no time did anyone from Upwork contact me for any of the evidence that this freelancer was lying. This really suggests to me that Upwork is not reall that concerend about the behaviour of it's freelancers. "I am sorry you have had a negative experince" really doesn't cut it, and seems to be the automatic platitude time and time again.

While I know Upwork can't held resposible for the beahaviour of the freelancers that are using the platform, I do expect that the people should be expected to be professional, and when they exhibit appear to commit a serious breach of trust, they should be investigated. As I previously said, the lack of any Upwork contact to ask for the emails, or any other evidence shows that Upwork do not appear to take this very seriously. I am making a very serious accusation, and at the very least I would hope that someone might just ask me to back up what I am saying.

Had the freelancer put his hand up and said he was having difficulties, or could not complete in time, I would have been able to work out a solution.

Steve

[colettelewis]

---

Stephen S wrote:

At no time did anyone from Upwork contact me for any of the evidence that this freelancer was lying. This really suggests to me that Upwork is not reall that concerend about the behaviour of it's freelancers. "I am sorry you have had a negative experince" really doesn't cut it, and seems to be the automatic platitude time and time again.

While I know Upwork can't held resposible for the beahaviour of the freelancers that are using the platform, I do expect that the people should be expected to be professional, and when they exhibit appear to commit a serious breach of trust, they should be investigated. As I previously said, the lack of any Upwork contact to ask for the emails, or any other evidence shows that Upwork do not appear to take this very seriously. I am making a very serious accusation, and at the very least I would hope that someone might just ask me to back up what I am saying.

Had the freelancer put his hand up and said he was having difficulties, or could not complete in time, I would have been able to work out a solution.

Steve

---

____________________________

This was a fairly elaborate "the dog ate my homework" excuse, but unfortunately, some people just can't hold up a hand and say it how it is. However, I don't think the freelanceer intended to defraud, but just couldn't admit to failing on  delivery or not being able to complete the job.

As you were refunded, you didn't lose out financially and even if you were inconvenienced, you weren't really defrauded. Is it really necessary to continue taking the moral high ground and insisting on ultimate punishment? The freelancer will already have taken a hit on their ratings  which no doubt will have an impact on their getting work. 

[prestonhunter]

Stephen: I believe you should put your project and yourself first, and not spend any more time on this freelancer.

Was the freelancer lying? Yes. He should NOT have done so. He was dishonest. He was unprofessional.

If you are his pastor, priest or rabbi then you should continue working with him and continue doing what it takes to bring him to repentance.

But if you are a businessperson who has no duty of pastoral care...

Then if you have already:

- submitted accurate feedback when closing the contract

- reported the freelancer to Upwork through a Customer Support ticket

...then your duty as a responsible member of the Upwork community is complete. You should not feel guilty if you move on and focus on your own interests rather on focusing on that freelancer.

[bcf33bca]

Preston,

Thank you for taking the time to reply. 

If this was a bricks and mortar contracting agency I doubt that this would be treated in the same way. I doubt the freelancer would even be still on the bopoks of the agency, it is a serious breach of trust and confidence. Would you expect an agency to keep you their books if you pulled a similar stunt?

This contract was for coding and also involved 4 other subcontractors working on a project with a spend well north of $50,000. Not only did it end up costing me money, it also put the brakes on 4 other people working on the project, which as you know has a knock on effect.

The main complaint I have though is that Upwork seem so unintrested in what is a very serious complaint.

I did move on, and had new team members within a week, but the month it took for them to get up to speed, is lost. The consequences from this freelancers actions cost me a lot of money, not to mention the lost good will with my customer. The biggest losers, though, will be the Upwork freelancers as I no longer have confidence in the platform. My company spends a lot of money each year through platforms like Upwork, but it seems that Upwork will not be one of those anymore.

I did notice that the replies I have, and I do appreciate people taking their time to do this, were all from freelancers. Please put yourselves in the position of a business owner and try to see it from my point of view. Freelancers who conduct themselves like the one I hired, do damage to the platform and to the other freelancers on it. I always do due dilligence when I spend a lot of money on our projects, and this includes visiting the freelancers, sitting down with them to make sure they undersatnd the job, and making them part of the team (even when they are on the other side of the world to me), and making sure they always feel comfortable to bring up any issues they may have.

[bcf33bca]

Hi Nichola,

Thanks for your reply. I think the dog ate my homework analogy is underplaying the seriosness of this. My fictional dog ate my homework many times during my school years, but it did no damage except to my own school reports. This is supposed to be a place where someone can hire professionals for real business projects that have deadlines and (my) customers waiting.

In this case I was not just inconvenienced, it has cost me several thousand $. The project has a hard deadline and I have had to find extra people to do work that is now not possible for one person to complete, and finding 2 people who can work on code together makes things even more complicated. Add to this my time, which is not free, and the money I spent traveling to the freelancers country to spend time explaining the project, and it is much more than inconvenience. 

Unforunately, the freelancer ended the contract and I was unaware that I only had 14 days left to give feedback, although I don't believe that is the only issue here.

I have also lost good will with my customer, which could possibly have a longer term impact on my business. The beahaviour of this freelancer has had considerable consequences and he should be held accountable.

[prestonhunter]

Stephen:

The "dog ate my homework" analogy was not a comment on the seriousness of your situation.

It was a comment on how ridiculous and unbelievable the freelancer's excuses were.

[colettelewis]

---

Stephen S wrote:

Hi Nichola,

Thanks for your reply. I think the dog ate my homework analogy is underplaying the seriosness of this. My fictional dog ate my homework many times during my school years, but it did no damage except to my own school reports. This is supposed to be a place where someone can hire professionals for real business projects that have deadlines and (my) customers waiting.

In this case I was not just inconvenienced, it has cost me several thousand $. The project has a hard deadline and I have had to find extra people to do work that is now not possible for one person to complete, and finding 2 people who can work on code together makes things even more complicated. Add to this my time, which is not free, and the money I spent traveling to the freelancers country to spend time explaining the project, and it is much more than inconvenience. 

Unforunately, the freelancer ended the contract and I was unaware that I only had 14 days left to give feedback, although I don't believe that is the only issue here.

I have also lost good will with my customer, which could possibly have a longer term impact on my business. The beahaviour of this freelancer has had considerable consequences and he should be held accountable.

---

_________________________________

You did say you had been fully refunded. So I assumed that you got your money back. However, If you spent thousands on traveling to the freelancer's country (taking micromanagement to a new level), and also did not read how Upwork's escrow fixed-price contracts work,  I would suggest that you permanently employ a project manager. 

I think the freelancer you hired was very wrong, but I do not think he or she deserves to be hung drawn and quartered because you failed to hire the right person. 

[bcf33bca]

Hi Nicola,

Your comments show a complete lack of understanding of the hiring process. I travel to spend time with a freelancer precisely because it is the best way to hire the correct person,and your suggestion that I hired the worng person is very insulting. Our projects are very complicated, and often the best way to have them come to a succesful conclusion is to spend time making sure the person I am working with fully understands the project. This is not micromangement, it is the sensible thing to do when you are spending a large amount of money on a project. When you commit to a large software/hardware design you need to do your due dilligence. This feelancer was part of a bigger team, and his actions had consequnces. I have never had a contractor complain of "micromanagement", they are always appreciate the chance to get an understanding of the project, as this ensures the job is understood, and actually menas that they are not blamed by a client who has failed to understand the project. I have spent 10 years project managing product designs, so I do think I know what I am doing. This, by the way, was not a fixed price contract, I know enough about my projects to understand that in this type of development, there are unforseen issues that take time to figure the solutions to. It is better to have it done properly instead of someone rushing the job because I have squeezed them on time.

The financial cost to me is not so much from the travel to see him, that's a cost of doing busines, but from the need to hire extra people to try and finish the project on time, not to mention the amount of time I have spent finding other people. 

I am not sure why you think I want this freelancer "hung, draw and quartered", if read my earleir emails, I feel that Upwork has not taken this compalint seriously. As a freelancer, you should also be upset about this type of behaviour. This experience has seriously affected my trust in Upwork as a hiring platform, and as a result I will no longer be using it. If this person had behaved like this in any formal employment situation, or even a more traditional contracting agency, do you think that he would not face some sort of disciplinary action?

Why should he not have consequenses on Upwork? 

[gilbert-phyllis]

You think UW should kick the FL off the platform which amounts to being 'hung, drawn & quartered.'

Hiring FLs does not, in any way, shape or form, promise you a traditional employment situation. If that's what you want and need, then budget for and recruit FTEs.

UW is not an agency. It's a platform that facilitates introductions and expedites transactions between clients and FLs. Choosing each other and managing the ensuing business relationships is completely up to each of us. In your shoes, I'd be enormously frustrated and not a little embarrassed at having made a bad call in hiring that flaky FL. I hope I would not be trying to lay the blame elsewhere and would focus, instead, on never repeating my error.

[bcf33bca]

Phyllis,

At no point did I ask for the FL to be removed from the platform. I feel that Upwork has not taken the complaint very seriously and would expect the platform to look into freelancers who lie and are dishonest, and not give them a pass.

The FL I hired has a stellar record and has done thousands of hours of succesful work. I did all that was needed to find the right person. If he is flaky then the rating system on UW is seriously flawed.

I am not blaming anyone for the FL's actions, least of all UW. Please read my posts from the begining.

Yes I know the platform just facilitates the introduction of the freelancers and the hirers. Much like Uber does with the drivers and the riders, and much like many of these platforms these days. I am not expecting UW to police all it's freelancers, but to have some standards when a serious complaint is made against one.

[gilbert-phyllis]

---

Stephen S wrote:

Phyllis,

At no point did I ask for the FL to be removed from the platform. I feel that Upwork has not taken the complaint very seriously and would expect the platform to look into freelancers who lie and are dishonest, and not give them a pass.

The FL I hired has a stellar record and has done thousands of hours of succesful work. I did all that was needed to find the right person. If he is flaky then the rating system on UW is seriously flawed.

I am not blaming anyone for the FL's actions, least of all UW. Please read my posts from the begining.

Yes I know the platform just facilitates the introduction of the freelancers and the hirers. Much like Uber does with the drivers and the riders, and much like many of these platforms these days. I am not expecting UW to police all it's freelancers, but to have some standards when a serious complaint is made against one.

---

As Nichola has pointed out, in no way did this flaky FL get a pass. It's not clear what else you want to see happen, if not banishment. What stumps me is why you've compounded your lost time (equating to lost money) by arguing here for so long. None of us can do anything except venture opinions, some of which you inevitably find aggravating. Moderators are not going to take up your cause at this point. As far as UW is concerned, the case is closed. 

[bcf33bca]

Phyllis,

I had no idea what the community was about, and was not looking for a moderator to take up my case. I was, however interested to see if someone from Upwork would respond. Clearly nothing more than the usual platitudes. 

I jabe no idea if the FL got a pass, neither does Nichola or you.

What I do with my time is not your business, I don't really know why you made that comment.

[colettelewis]

As Phyllis said, we can only comment. I am also beginning to doubt the veracity of some of your statements. It seems to me a case of six of one and half a dozen of the other. I suggest you take this up privately with Upwork and keep it private.

[bcf33bca]

Now you are accusing me of not being completely truthful? Where does this come from? Where have I given you cause to doubt what I am saying? You think I am not being truthful about the freelancer? 

Perhaps the need for professionlism also extends to the community guru.

[colettelewis]

---

Stephen S wrote:

Hi Nicola,

Your comments show a complete lack of understanding of the hiring process.

You have no evidence of this but  you are free to believe what you like.  

I travel to spend time with a freelancer precisely because it is the best way to hire the correct person,and your suggestion that I hired the worng person is very insulting.

Why is it insulting? This is what this thread about. You did hire the wrong person!

Our projects are very complicated, and often the best way to have them come to a succesful conclusion is to spend time making sure the person I am working with fully understands the project. This is not micromangement, it is the sensible thing to do when you are spending a large amount of money on a project. When you commit to a large software/hardware design you need to do your due dilligence.

If you needed one on one interviews, you could have hired someone who was well qualified, who was closer to your home,  and spent less time (and money) on travel. 

This feelancer was part of a bigger team, and his actions had consequnces. I have never had a contractor complain of "micromanagement", they are always appreciate the chance to get an understanding of the project, as this ensures the job is understood, and actually menas that they are not blamed by a client who has failed to understand the project.

Well that is good, but it would seem in this case, that the the client  is  blaming! 

I have spent 10 years project managing product designs, so I do think I know what I am doing.

Well no, you didn't know what you were doing in this case.. If you hire someone on a platform like Upwork, then it is always best to read about the platform and how it works before hiring. 

This, by the way, was not a fixed price contract, I know enough about my projects to understand that in this type of development, there are unforseen issues that take time to figure the solutions to. It is better to have it done properly instead of someone rushing the job because I have squeezed them on time.

So if it wasn't a fixed-price contract, how come you said you didn't know about the 14-day review period. This only applies to fixed-rate, escrow-funded contracts? 

The financial cost to me is not so much from the travel to see him, that's a cost of doing busines, but from the need to hire extra people to try and finish the project on time, not to mention the amount of time I have spent finding other people.

That is why I mentioned that you needed a project manager to free you up to concentrate on your business.  

I am not sure why you think I want this freelancer "hung, draw and quartered", if read my earleir emails, I feel that Upwork has not taken this compalint seriously. As a freelancer, you should also be upset about this type of behaviour.

I have already said that I feel the freelancer has not behaved well, and should not have made those absurd excuses. However I daresay, the freelancer is already suffering from a very bad rating and a significantly lowered JSS. This is a pretty bad punishment. 

This experience has seriously affected my trust in Upwork as a hiring platform, and as a result I will no longer be using it. If this person had behaved like this in any formal employment situation, or even a more traditional contracting agency, do you think that he would not face some sort of disciplinary action?

Whether or not you continue with Upwork is entirely up to you. If the freelancer had behaved like this in formal employment, I expect they would have had their wrists slapped and told that if they did it again, they would be fired. This is also a specious argument. You chose to hire from a freelance platform. You chose badly. Suck it up and move on. 

Why should he not have consequenses on Upwork? 

I have already said, he probably has.

---

______________________________________

[prestonhunter]

I think most time spent interviewing freelancers is a waste of time.

With a good project manager, you can pretty much just hire people at random, thus:

- saving money

- saving time

- ensuring the the level of quality your project requires

[bcf33bca]

Preston,

The original issue was and is about Upwork, not the work, or quality of it, that was done by the freelancer. It is one of freelancer integrity and how seriously Upwork takes it, at least in my view. There have to be some sort of standards that both freelancer and client need to adhere to. My view is that this freelancer crossed a line and Upwork should at the very least look into it.

I am the project manager, and I do need to know that the person I am talking to understand the needs of the project. I am not sure how hiring people at random saves time and money. The wrong person can cause all sorts of problems down the line, wasting both time and money.

[colettelewis]

Stephen wrote: 

"At no point did I express that the FL should be thrown off of Upwork. I would expect a complaint like this to be treated more seriously by Upwork, and if nessecary, some form of action taken. This is about freelancer integrity, not their ability to perform a job."

So what kind of punishment do you have in mind? Since you know where the freelancer lives and have been to his country, you could go back there and talk it over with him - or whip him. 

You also said: "Had the freelancer put his hand up and said he was having difficulties, or could not complete in time, I would have been able to work out a solution."
That makes sense, but then you should have stopped paying him (as it was an hourly contract), closed the contract and given the appropriate feedback. Instead of which he made some elaborate excuses (which admittedly was stupid rather than criminal) and it was he who closed the contract. 

I think you should stop acting God, judge and jury and just treat it as a bad experience and move on. 

[bcf33bca]

I think you should stop acting God, judge and jury and just treat it as a bad experience and move on. 

I am asking Upwork to be judge and jury, god has nothing to do with it, and I am really not sure why you would make this comment.

So what kind of punishment do you have in mind? Since you know where the freelancer lives and have been to his country, you could go back there and talk it over with him - or whip him. 

Really? This is supposed to be a constuctive comment?

That makes sense, but then you should have stopped paying him (as it was an hourly contract), closed the contract and given the appropriate feedback. Instead of which he made some elaborate excuses (which admittedly was stupid rather than criminal) and it was he who closed the contract. 

He didn't get paid for any work he did not do. I had reasons for not ending the contract immediately. It was not an elaborate excuse, it was a complete lie. 

Again, my issue is with Upwork. 

[prestonhunter]

re: "I am not sure how hiring people at random saves time and money."

Hiring people at random can save time and money because you do not spend time or money interviewing people or trying to research them.

If you just hire random people who apply to your job posts, then you can spend zero time or close to zero time reading job proposals, looking at portfolios, interviewing, etc.

I'm not saying every client on every job SHOULD do this. But it is a mathematical fact that you can save time and money this way.

Once you have hired people, a good project manager (or project owner acting as a project manager) will review all work submitted by freelancers and quickly close the contracts on all of the freelancers that were hired except for the ones who add the best value to the project.

If you are going to do that ANYWAY, then yes... you can save time and money by hiring people randomly.

I have hired over 80 freelancers on Upwork. Often I have NOT DONE THIS. But sometimes this is EXACTLY what I have done. It depends on the project.

This has worked out great for me.

I have often hired the first person to apply to my job post, without really looking into them at all, and without talking to them. This has worked out very well. One of the keys to doing this is writing very helpful job proposals that make it very clear what a person will be doing.

[bcf33bca]

Hi Nichola,

You are correct, I have no evidence that you don't understand the hiring process.

Yes I did hire the wrong person, however on paper, online and in person he certainly seemed like the right person, and his work record on UW was long and very succesful. I was only trying to point out the lengths I go to in making sure that I have the best people possible. No it does not always work, clearly, but this discussion has been sidetracked. 

My point was that I go out of my way to find and work the the right people for the project and whether or not I hired well is not the issue. At no point did I blame upwork for the quality of the work or what happened. My complaint all along is that I don't feel Upwork has taken the complaint seriously.

So if it wasn't a fixed-price contract, how come you said you didn't know about the 14-day review period. This only applies to fixed-rate, escrow-funded contracts?  The FL was hired on an hourly contract. He invoiced, and got paid. No milestones and no escrow. 

At no point did I express that the FL should be thrown off of Upwork. I would expect a complaint like this to be treated more seriously by Upwork, and if nessecary, some form of action taken. This is about freelancer integrity, not their ability to perform a job.

Below is the information about the 14 day review period.

Clients give two types of feedback regarding their experience with a freelancer.

• Public – Comments and star ratings that are shown on the freelancer’s Work History. Requires minimum net contract payment of $1 to be visible.
• Private – Used by Upwork to assess the freelancer’s Job Success. This is an opportunity to provide information to Upwork that you may feel uncomfortable sharing publicly.

Leave Feedback

If you are the one who ends the contract, you leave your feedback in the End Contract form. If the freelancer or agency ended the contract, you’ll have 14 days to leave feedback.

Here’s how

1. Go to the Freelancers > Past Hires.
2. Select the freelancer who left feedback for you from the list. Click their contract title to see all the details.
3. In the Terms & Settings section, click the Give Feedback link.

The feedback period is 14 days from the end of a contract. The system is double-blind, which means that feedback won’t be visible until both parties provide it for each other. If only one party leaves feedback, it will be posted after the 14-day period has expired.

If the 14-day feedback period expires before you are able to add comments, you can contact the freelancer and ask them to allow you to add feedback late. You’ll be notified once the option to leave feedback is available.

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