My proposals are archived!

[#1]

Who can explain me why the half of my new proposals are archived? Today I posted a job to find a good freelancer for my project, but an hour later I discovered that the most of the proposals are in the archive list. What's going on? I even didn't have an opportunity to review the freelancers. Upwork promotes some freelancers and hides others?

[#2]

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@Lena E wrote:

Hi everyone,

I’ve reviewed the comments on this thread and want to clarify a few things. The Talent Specialist program hasn’t changed and is working the way it always has. Talent Specialists help clients hire and find qualified freelancers faster. They do this by narrowing down proposals, or by inviting freelancers directly, to help clients find qualified candidates for their job.

When a Talent Specialist is working with a client the client is notified of the treatment. In both cases mentioned here, these clients were contacted directly by their Talent Specialist in Messages to assist them with their job.

And that is precisely the problem. Talent Specialists should NOT DIRECTLY contact clients. Clients should contact the talent specialists IF and I stress IF they feel that they need them and IF they feel they could help them.

And a feature should be available to the FREELANCERS notifiying them that their proposals were archived if that were the case. 

As part of this program and their services, Talent Specialists shortlist candidates and archive  when necessary, those who may not be a good fit for the job. Those archived proposals are still accessible for clients to review and unarchive. Albeit, we will review the messaging to make sure it’s clear that clients know about archiving and where to find those proposals.

In the cases mentioned in this thread, these clients received a high volume of proposals, some jobs nearly 100, and the Talent Specialist narrowed it down to about half. Again, this isn’t a new process and the program has not changed. The goal of a Talent Specialist is to help clients with hiring, and to make decisions faster, as to not be overwhelmed by the high volume of proposals they receive. If a client does not want their assistance, they can just let their Talent Specialist know and they will be opted-out of the treatment.

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[#3]

Kathy T wrote:

And a feature should be available to the FREELANCERS notifiying them that their proposals were archived if that were the case. 

Pretty much, yes!  Although, I don't know if I'd call it a feature as there is no polite way of telling a freelancer their proposal has essentially been trashed because someone unilaterally decided that's where it belonged.  

[#4]

Most people are questioning a Talent Spec's ability to judge a freelancer's skills, but what I'm curious about is the Talent Spec's ability to understand the client's project.

More often than not, clients don't know exactly what's required for their project - they know what their end goal is but don't know how to get there. That's what we have the interview phase for. I can't tell you how many times I applied for/won a gig where the entire project scope was changed (for the better) after the client and I discussed their project.

If these Talent Specialists don't even discuss the project with the client, how can they begin to understand what the client needs, and how can they even think about archiving a freelancer when they don't actually know whether the freelancer would be a good fit or not? [TSs obviously don't discuss the project with the clients - otherwise, we wouldn't have two clients in this thread completely unaware that their jobs were managed by a TS]

Upwork - just stick to the technicalities of your platform and stop interfering with our business! We are the specialists here, not you and your teams. If the client needs a "Talent Specialist", there are plenty of professional Recruiters and Project Managers (!) they can hire right here on Upwork.

[#5]

Yes, in my case the Talent Specialist wrote a message that she would answer all my questions, but there wasn't any word about narrowing down the number of proposals, archiving, sending the invitations to the interviews and messaging to freelancers. I didn't even imagine that she would sort the freelancers. Finally I had to post several jobs to find the freelancer for my project, but the Talent Specialist "worked" on all of them. 

As I'm not the only person who appeared in such situation, I think it would be reasonable to give your users the choise to use this program or not. 

[#6]

Hi Dan R.,
Do I suppose right If I believe that you are the client that started this thread?
If so, have you had any news of Upwork about the problem?
As you can see, nobody (from the part of Upwork), has said anything since they answered at the beginning.

[#7]

"I'm sure they're tired of going back and forth with us. ..."

But they aren't.  Not in this case.  Not at all. Radio silence.

[#8]

@ Dan R., thank you so much for returning to your original thread and for answering the questions.  Needless to say, we could not agree more with your comment "I think it would be reasonable to give your users the choice to use this program or not."

[#9]

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Lena E wrote:

Hi everyone,

I’ve reviewed the comments on this thread and want to clarify a few things. The Talent Specialist program hasn’t changed and is working the way it always has. Talent Specialists help clients hire and find qualified freelancers faster. They do this by narrowing down proposals, or by inviting freelancers directly, to help clients find qualified candidates for their job.

When a Talent Specialist is working with a client the client is notified of the treatment. In both cases mentioned here, these clients were contacted directly by their Talent Specialist in Messages to assist them with their job.

As part of this program and their services, Talent Specialists shortlist candidates and archive  when necessary, those who may not be a good fit for the job. Those archived proposals are still accessible for clients to review and unarchive. Albeit, we will review the messaging to make sure it’s clear that clients know about archiving and where to find those proposals.

In the cases mentioned in this thread, these clients received a high volume of proposals, some jobs nearly 100, and the Talent Specialist narrowed it down to about half. Again, this isn’t a new process and the program has not changed. The goal of a Talent Specialist is to help clients with hiring, and to make decisions faster, as to not be overwhelmed by the high volume of proposals they receive. If a client does not want their assistance, they can just let their Talent Specialist know and they will be opted-out of the treatment.

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Hi Lena,

Since Steve H. hasn't deigned to come back to this thread as we've all been waiting for, perhaps you'd be so kind as to step in and offer something, anything, to help us understand what's going on? Leaving  us to hang in the wind is a really s___y way for Upwork to handle this issue.

I can understand why the mods are staying out of this as it's certainly not their doing. What I can't understand is how Upwork thinks it's okay to keep ignoring the questions and concerns posted in this thread. How about some basic respect for your freelancers?

Or is that too much to ask?

[#10]

This only so that the thread does not get lost.
Any mod? Someone on the other side?
It is really embarrassing that they are ignoring us in this way.

[#11]

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@Lena E wrote:

When a Talent Specialist is working with a client the client is notified of the treatment. In both cases mentioned here, these clients were contacted directly by their Talent Specialist in Messages to assist them with their job.

Thank you for replying Lena, but now I'm even more confused. Both the clients on this thread seem to be completely unaware that their hiring process was being intefered with by TS. Dan specifically said:

"Nobody asked me whether I need this service or not. There was't any choice. Talent Specialist just started sorting my proposals without my agreement."

So, after reading your explanation, were they lying, confused, or just forgot that they were contacted by TS? Or maybe they just weren't informed that a TS's tasks includes archiving proposals? (Dan & Sarah -- please feel free to clarify if you see this post.)

As part of this program and their services, Talent Specialists shortlist candidates and archive when necessary, those who may not be a good fit for the job.

As others have asked, what qualifications do these specialists have that give them enough credibility to decide which freelancers are and are not fit for the job? I think our skepticism is justified given their reputation in the forums.

If a client does not want their assistance, they can just let their Talent Specialist know and they will be opted-out of the treatment.

I think someone else already mentioned this, but this should be an opt-in service. Did the clients on this thread explicitly agree when TS informed them that they'll be filtering out freelancers on their behalf?

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It's very upsetting that we have people (who, in these very forums, have been continually criticized for the way they carry out their tasks) other than the client who decide whether our proposals should or shouldn't be considered. It's one thing if the client wants this, but the two clients who posted in this thread clearly didn't. How many other clients, who don't bother to post in the forums, are receiving similarly frustrating services and missing out on great freelancers?

2018 was a very difficult year for me on Upwork, and things are not looking up. So now why should I bother submitting proposals anymore if they are just going to be trashed by someone who doesn't know what the client wants and who doesn't have any idea about my skills? (Not that I'm submitting many, given the absurdly low quality of job posts for the past several months.)

[#12]

A thousand plus kudos to Ines H's words:

"Most people are questioning a Talent Spec's ability to judge a freelancer's skills, but what I'm curious about is the Talent Spec's ability to understand the client's project.

More often than not, clients don't know exactly what's required for their project - they know what their end goal is but don't know how to get there. That's what we have the interview phase for. I can't tell you how many times I applied for/won a gig where the entire project scope was changed (for the better) after the client and I discussed their project.

If these Talent Specialists don't even discuss the project with the client, how can they begin to understand what the client needs, and how can they even think about archiving a freelancer when they don't actually know whether the freelancer would be a good fit or not? [TSs obviously don't discuss the project with the clients - otherwise, we wouldn't have two clients in this thread completely unaware that their jobs were managed by a TS]

Upwork - just stick to the technicalities of your platform and stop interfering with our business! We are the specialists here, not you and your teams. If the client needs a "Talent Specialist", there are plenty of professional Recruiters and Project Managers (!) they can hire right here on Upwork."

[#13]

An example of what we're all trying to say: https://community.upwork.com/t5/Freelancers/Opting-out-of-Talent-Specialist-invitations/m-p/548892#M...

This is not an isolated incident. Either train these "specialists" properly, or do away with this program.

[#14]

I seldom send proposals any more because most of the legal jobs posted are not consistent, legally or skill-wise, with me and what I can do.  But if I were more active right now, I would be LIVID to find that my proposal was archived.

I opted out of the TS program some time ago because the specialists clearly have no legal background and have no understanding what tasks I am legally able to perform.  Plus, while I can "draft" some documents, I cannot "draft" architectural plans and someone never understood the difference.

[#15]

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@Mary W wrote:

Plus, while I can "draft" some documents, I cannot "draft" architectural plans and someone never understood the difference.

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Similarly, "someone" assumed that because I edit texts, I also do video editing 

[#16]

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@Mary W wrote:

I seldom send proposals any more because most of the legal jobs posted are not consistent, legally or skill-wise, with me and what I can do.  But if I were more active right now, I would be LIVID to find that my proposal was archived.

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 The nasty part is that you likely won't find out.

That said, I applied to a job some little while ago (because it was a perfect fit for me and I was a perfect fit for the job) and the client then sent me an invite to a different job, which I nearly declined without reading it, because it was for something else. She told me that I had applied to her other job (I did) and she wanted to hire me, but that she could not, for the life of her, find my proposal, and could not invite me either.

So I had to withdraw my proposal and apply again, just so she could hire me. Had she not been so persistent and searched for me specifically to invite me (for a different job, because the system did not allow her to invite me to the one I had already applied for) I'd have lost out. Client would have lost out.

I thought that was odd and it's been niggling at me ever since. Now I know why...

Clearly one of those so-called "Talent-Specialists" - who almost certainly haven't the faintest whiff of a clue what I do and who would be a good fit for that particular job, took my proposal and chucked it in the trash.

Obviously that so-called "Talent-Specialist" thought my proposal was not a good fit despite the fact that I have years and thousands of hours history successfully doing EXACTLY what the client wanted, a 100% JSS, top rated etc. Clearly the client thought I was the perfect fit, considering she went to the lengths she did to find me after my proposal inexplicably vanished?

The whole thing is so hare-brained it absolutely beggars belief.

How can one of those people POSSIBLY know what is needed in all the wildly different categories from design to translation to app development to coding to whatever. Know better than the client, better than the professionals who work with the clients?

THEY CAN NOT!

I fitted EVERY criteria.  The only reason I can think of is that I bid (and was subsequently hired at) significantly (70% +) above budget, but that should be no reason for those people to bin proposals. Upwork should be glad when freelancers make them more money!

And what about the Connects wasted when those clueless people thrash professionals' proposals?

What about the fact that Upwork sells us memberships and connects and then lets clueless entry level people throw our proposals in the trash?

You can not sell something  to us and then sneakily send in those people to cluelessly go forth and take it away.

How in the WORLD can Upwork think that is ok? HOW?

[#17]

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@Petra R wrote:

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@Mary W wrote:

I seldom send proposals any more because most of the legal jobs posted are not consistent, legally or skill-wise, with me and what I can do.  But if I were more active right now, I would be LIVID to find that my proposal was archived.

---

 The nasty part is that you likely won't find out.

That said, I applied to a job some little while ago (because it was a perfect fit for me and I was a perfect fit for the job) and the client then sent me an invite to a different job, which I nearly declined without reading it, because it was for something else. She told me that I had applied to her other job (I did) and she wanted to hire me, but that she could not, for the life of her, find my proposal, and could not invite me either.

So I had to withdraw my proposal and apply again, just so she could hire me. Had she not been so persistent and searched for me specifically to invite me (for a different job, because the system did not allow her to invite me to the one I had already applied for) I'd have lost out. Client would have lost out.

I thought that was odd and it's been niggling at me ever since. Now I know why...

Clearly one of those so-called "Talent-Specialists" - who almost certainly haven't the faintest whiff of a clue what I do and who would be a good fit for that particular job, took my proposal and chucked it in the trash.

Obviously that so-called "Talent-Specialist" thought my proposal was not a good fit despite the fact that I have years and thousands of hours history successfully doing EXACTLY what the client wanted, a 100% JSS, top rated etc. Clearly the client thought I was the perfect fit, considering she went to the lengths she did to find me after my proposal inexplicably vanished?

The whole thing is so hare-brained it absolutely beggars belief.

How can one of those people POSSIBLY know what is needed in all the wildly different categories from design to translation to app development to coding to whatever. Know better than the client, better than the professionals who work with the clients?

THEY CAN NOT!

I fitted EVERY criteria.  The only reason I can think of is that I bid (and was subsequently hired at) significantly (70% +) above budget, but that should be no reason for those people to bin proposals. Upwork should be glad when freelancers make them more money!

And what about the Connects wasted when those clueless people thrash professionals' proposals?

What about the fact that Upwork sells us memberships and connects and then lets clueless entry level people throw our proposals in the trash?

You can not sell something  to us and then sneakily send in those people to cluelessly go forth and take it away.

How in the WORLD can Upwork think that is ok? HOW?

If this is what happened with that job, your bid, and that client, that's a bad story, Petra. I think there might be more crickets for awhile.

[#18]

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@Virginia F wrote:

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If this is what happened with that job, your bid, and that client, that's a bad story, Petra. I think there might be more crickets for awhile.

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 Well, it seems it happens to our proposals day in, day out.

The thought that those people, who would not understand the finer details of translation (or programming, or design, or legal whatsit, or whatever your area of expertise may be) if they jumped up and bit them, whoosh in and decide to take our proposals (which we spend time on, and some pay money for) and remove them is making me so incredibly angry, especially when clients have little or no clear idea that it is happening.

Those so-called talent specialists are no such thing. They are not specialists in what the hundreds of thousands of freelancers in all the many different categories do and what their clients need.

This is Upwork stealing our time ( the time it takes to apply) and our Connects and in the case of freelancers who pay, our money.

AGAIN: Upwork, you can not take our money with one hand and then send those (BEEPS) in to secretly remove our proposals with the other hand. That simply, absolutely, can must not happen. It is wrong. It is underhand, and I am pretty certain the legality of such a business practice could be seriously questioned.

At any rate it is a deliberate, sly, secretive, unfair, evil, flat-handed, hard, insulting  slap in the face of the freelancers.

If you want clients to receive less deadbeat proposals, kick all the deadbeats off the beeping site and be done with it already. Taking my careful proposals and flushing them down the toilet at the hands of someone who has no clue what my clients need is not the solution.

THIS is NOT the way to go about it.

I am so angry I am literally foaming at the mouth.

[#19]

I am so thoroughly demoralized after reading this thread. I've been trying to get my foot in the door with Upwork for the last 5 months and have only been able to leverage two jobs so far. I've tried everything recommended (hey, I'm sure if you checked my profile you could find room for improvement so feel free to shout out anything that I could improve).

I've written long cover letters, short cover letters, 100% custom cover letters, pro-forma cover letters, bid high, bid low, bid in the middle, limited myself to one or two thoughtful proposals a day, and even tried going with dozens of template proposals daily to the point where I felt I was spamming, I always attach relevant work samples, and I've edited my profile at least half a dozen times. Nothing seems to really work.

To hear that my proposals are likely being filtered without the client's consent or knowledge by someone with questionable qualifications makes me wonder why I'm bothering with this platform...

[#20]

"If you want clients to receive less deadbeat proposals, kick all the deadbeats off the beeping site and be done with it already"

That pretty much sums it up. Even though UW says it's getting harder to have a profile approved, I don't believe it. All you have to do is read newbie forum posts to know that UW will take anyone.

[#21]

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@Virginia F wrote:

"If you want clients to receive less deadbeat proposals, kick all the deadbeats off the beeping site and be done with it already"

That pretty much sums it up. Even though UW says it's getting harder to have a profile approved, I don't believe it. All you have to do is read newbie forum posts to know that UW will take anyone.

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There's one OP, that I just replied to, (in the New to Upwork discussion section) who asks why can't I get a job. I looked at his profile, He has not a single word plus he has taken 2 tests with below average scores. yet he's able to send proposals. 

[#22]

Petra - you know what? When a freelancer posts that they can not get a job, and their profile is good and complete, perhaps we can reply with a link to this discussion. 

[#23]

Remember when they were hiding jobs from freelancers after some number of top rated applications were received? Then they started to "not hide" them but there was a message from a mod saying they are still doing the experiment. This is the same experiment from what I understand from what a mod wrote here.

AND, there are NO talent specialists. There is an algorithm which was hiding jobs from freelancers, which is now hiding freelancers from clients.

[#24]

Petra wrote "If you want clients to receive less deadbeat proposals, kick all the deadbeats off the beeping site and be done with it already. Taking my careful proposals and flushing them down the toilet at the hands of someone who has no clue what my clients need is not the solution."

That sez it all. I'm "foaming at the mouth" right along with her ... and every other professional who has seen this thread.

Upwork's behavior is unacceptable. Devious. Very possibly illegal. And will not be allowed to be pushed aside and ignored as is so often the methodology used to end discussions of this nature. 

We are a tenacious lot; that's how we survive and flourish as freelancers. We are also honest; none of the FLers who are so furious with this behavior cost Upwork a penny in 'neediness' or lost revenue.  We are the key sources of U's 20%, 10%, and 5% revenue stream.

[#25]

I have been following the thread without answering anyone because there are people here who, in addition to writing English correctly, explain everything in a detailed and precise way (Petra, you get the prize and I'm sorry about what happened to you)
It would be nice if @Dan R. and @Sarah H. (the clients) told us what explanations they have received from Upwork.
I see that no mod has followed with the thread and, really, what has happened to Petra is for give some explanation.
Angry, very angry !!

[#26]

@ Maria, your English is very good so don't apologize, please.  Your opinions and comments are valuable - well thought out and accurate.  We'd all like to read U's 'explanation' to the clients in question.  

@ Baris, do you have actual proof that the misnamed 'talent' specialists are strictly algorithms or are you being brilliantly sarcastic?