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My proposals are archived!

Community Guru
Janean L Member Since: Apr 6, 2016
261 of 322

I had a fascinating (lengthy) conversation last night (note: just a conversation, not an official consultation) with a practicing attorney. (Ivy-League-educated; top-ten law school honors graduate; practices in a serious NYC firm.)

 

When I showed this attorney UW's ToS and then had him read through this thread, his response (aside from some excellent questions and general bemusement) was this:

 

"I can pretty much guarantee you that behind closed doors, their attorneys' heads are exploding and they are screaming: 'NO! You CANNOT DO THIS! Like, What the (F)?!??!?'  But that's not how attorneys really speak to clients. We don't like to tell clients what they CAN'T do. We like to say: 'Weeelllll, ummm, you can't really do this... But here is what you can do...' "

 

(Makes me wish for a response to the question of whether or not a new practice has replaced the now-discontinued practice of employees designated as Talent Specialists doing what they have termed archiving. That is: Is there a new practice that has replaced the now-discontinued practice of "archiving"?)

 

Meanwhile, the attorney's opinion was also as follows: "This isn't even a close call. They [UW] simply CANNOT be doing this. The question of damages is separate, of course. But this is just not even close. I'm telling you, their attorneys are having fits over this."

Community Guru
Tiffany S Member Since: Jan 15, 2016
262 of 322

Janean L wrote:

I had a fascinating (lengthy) conversation last night (note: just a conversation, not an official consultation) with a practicing attorney. (Ivy-League-educated; top-ten law school honors graduate; practices in a serious NYC firm.)

 

When I showed this attorney UW's ToS and then had him read through this thread, his response (aside from some excellent questions and general bemusement) was this:

 

"I can pretty much guarantee you that behind closed doors, their attorneys' heads are exploding and they are screaming: 'NO! You CANNOT DO THIS! Like, What the (F)?!??!?'  But that's not how attorneys really speak to clients. We don't like to tell clients what they CAN'T do. We like to say: 'Weeelllll, ummm, you can't really do this... But here is what you can do...' "

 

(Makes me wish for a response to the question of whether or not a new practice has replaced the now-discontinued practice of employees designated as Talent Specialists doing what they have termed archiving. That is: Is there a new practice that has replaced the now-discontinued practice of "archiving"?)

 

Meanwhile, the attorney's opinion was also as follows: "This isn't even a close call. They [UW] simply CANNOT be doing this. The question of damages is separate, of course. But this is just not even close. I'm telling you, their attorneys are having fits over this."


 It's been many years since I practiced law, but since shifting fields I've worked with several leading consumer protection attorneys in the creation of educational materials, both for consumers and other attorneys.  What Janean has posted exactly matches my assessment. The only difference is that I believe that there may be quantifiable damages due to freelancers having purchased connects and then had proposals secretly archived. I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that there is a class investigation quietly underway as we speak, working to determine whether there are viable damage claims.

Community Guru
Janean L Member Since: Apr 6, 2016
263 of 322

@Tiffany:

re: "The only difference is that I believe that there may be quantifiable damages"

 

There is actually no difference of opinion, here. My interlocutor's point re: damages was that damages might be difficult to prove, in some cases (e.g., he noted that courts dislike getting into "lost opportunity" costs/damages), and that damages could be small for any given individual.

Community Guru
Tiffany S Member Since: Jan 15, 2016
264 of 322

Janean L wrote:

@Tiffany:

re: "The only difference is that I believe that there may be quantifiable damages"

 

There is actually no difference of opinion, here. My interlocutor's point re: damages was that damages might be difficult to prove, in some cases (e.g., he noted that courts dislike getting into "lost opportunity" costs/damages), and that damages could be small for any given individual.


 You're right, we're entirely in agreement, then. That's why I thought it would likely emerge as a class claim--one of the core purposes of class action litigation is to allow consumers whose damages are too small to warrant individual litigation to pursue relief.

Community Guru
Petra R Member Since: Aug 3, 2011
265 of 322

Janean L wrote:

I had a fascinating (lengthy) conversation last night (note: just a conversation, not an official consultation) with a practicing attorney. (Ivy-League-educated; top-ten law school honors graduate; practices in a serious NYC firm.)

 

"I can pretty much guarantee you that behind closed doors, their attorneys' heads are exploding and they are screaming: 'NO! You CANNOT DO THIS! Like, What the (F)?!??!?'


 Funnily enough I was chatting (not consulting) with an old friend who is a lawyer (well, actually she is an ADA) in the USA about this nonsense last week and she said the same. 

 


Janean L wrote:

(Makes me wish for a response to the question of whether or not a new practice has replaced the now-discontinued practice of employees designated as Talent Specialists doing what they have termed archiving. That is: Is there a new practice that has replaced the now-discontinued practice of "archiving"?)


 Well, the lack of any answer to the direct and very easily answered question is an answer in itself.

Maybe the so-called TS don't archive anymore, and that job is given to an algorithm instead.

 

 

Community Guru
Wendy C Member Since: Aug 24, 2015
266 of 322

+ 1 to Petra's comment "the lack of any answer to the direct and very easily answered question is an answer in itself."

Community Guru
Irene B Member Since: Feb 17, 2015
267 of 322

I wonder if UW would like to comment on the 'hidden' folder...you know, the one where applications are deemed 'not qualified'...and how your algorithm actually goes about determining who is qualified or not...I do know machine learning is quite far advanced in many cases...but let us be quite frank...an algorithm is only as good as the people who write it...and UW constantly has bugs - you get my point? And, so btw...that little, hidden folder - where you have to press 'more' and that is filled with your 'unqualifieds'...is basically doing the same as your much (un)lauded 'specialists' that have been a pain in so many freelancers' side...in effect...it is using an algorithm to do the 'specialists' so-called 'job', with these proposals STILL in effect being archived (a rose by any other name and all that....), and UW StILL thus interfering in the hiring process...

Ace Contributor
Ahmed F Member Since: Nov 26, 2018
268 of 322

It just came to my knowledge that other than the "Archived" folder there is a folder called "Shortlisted" which Talent Specialists use to shortlist and recommend certain freelancers to the client!

---------------------------------
"Choose your adventure."
Community Guru
Maria C Member Since: Jul 9, 2015
269 of 322

Not only Talent Specilist send proposals to the hidden folder. It's some kind of automatized mechanism. And it's really terrible. I saw a client complining because the freelancers that Upwork marked as "best matches" were obvious fakers on a forum. 

 

And Upworks still fails to understand that the problem is the lack of control over the immense amount of new freelancers that sign in every day. There is no control there. Instead, they are chasing top rated freelancers with more and more verifications. Those who have proven their quality with their work.

 

This is very discouraging. 

Community Guru
Phyllis G Member Since: Sep 8, 2016
270 of 322

Ahmed F wrote:

It just came to my knowledge that other than the "Archived" folder there is a folder called "Shortlisted" which Talent Specialists use to shortlist and recommend certain freelancers to the client!


 Ahmed, in the interest of documentation, would you please share how this came to your attention and other relevant specifics? E.g. does this happen only when the client requests TS assistance, or does it happen regardless of the client's wishes and/or knowledge?

thx

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