No Budget?

[654a77a3]

Hello,

I would like to post a job without specifying a budget. Instead I would like the freelancers to propose they cost for the project. Is this possible?

[michael_skaggs]

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Robert K wrote:

Hello,

I would like to post a job without specifying a budget. Instead I would like the freelancers to propose they cost for the project. Is this possible?

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You have to put something in the budget field, but it doesn't have to be your actual budget.

What some do is put $5 or so as the budget, but mention in the listing that they want freelancers to propose what they think a job is worth. The downside of this is that many will see the $5 budget and ignore it.

Best bet is to look and see what similar jobs go for in your general location, take 15-20% off and set that as your budget, and still tell freelancers that you want them to propose their own rate for the project.

[prestonhunter]

Robert:

Many of us would like it if clients were able to do exactly what you're proposing. This has been requested and discussed, but is currently not possible other than through workarounds, such as described by Michael S.

Another viable way to post jobs when you don't want to post a budget is to simply post the job as an hourly contract.

[versailles]

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Preston H wrote:

Robert:

Many of us would like it if clients were able to do exactly what you're proposing. This has been requested and discussed, but is currently not possible

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It is possible. I've seen posts for fixed price jobs without a budget, but I think it's restricted to a certain set of clients. For a reason that I cannot even begin to understand.

The fact that Upwork refuses to give this long needed option to all the clients is just baffling.

[mtngigi · Accepted solution]

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Robert K wrote:

Hello,

I would like to post a job without specifying a budget. Instead I would like the freelancers to propose they cost for the project. Is this possible?

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Robert,

Understand that if you do put a placeholder of $5, there are freelancers who won't even see your job post because of their personal saved job searches that include a minimum dollar amount. Looking at similar posts is a good suggestion, and you may also want to consider finding profiles that fit what you're looking for - then you can send an "invite only" to specific freelancers and discuss budgets during the interview stage.

[654a77a3]

Thanks Virginia F and others who answered this question.  Interesting perspectives.  The options strike me as "work-arounds" - interesting that Upwork didn't build in this use case.

Nonetheless, your final suggestion Virginia - that I reach out directly to candidates - may be the best of them.

Thanks all.

[mtngigi]

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Robert K wrote:

Thanks Virginia F and others who answered this question.  Interesting perspectives.  The options strike me as "work-arounds" - interesting that Upwork didn't build in this use case.

Nonetheless, your final suggestion Virginia - that I reach out directly to candidates - may be the best of them.

Thanks all.

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You're very welcome. As Rene hints at, many of us have asked for this feature to be implemented - it's baffling as to why it hasn't been.

[15186d5f]

Having to post a price or budget was the most useless change that I have seen here since the beginning. Originally we could get the freelancer's idea of what it would cost, and sometimes we don't know what a job may cost.

But now we need to post a price which does nothing but confuse eveyone. If you post $5 no-one will be intersted, like right now I have a simple job for anyone using VBscript but no-one is interested because I have posted $5. But if I post a larger amount then they will all quote that price regardless of what it is.

So posting $5 is not a solution!

Nor is posting "pay by the hour" because that attracts all the freelancers that are looking for a free lunch without any commitment to complete. As a client who has been hiring freelancers for 20 years and hundreds of jobs here and other agencies, I recommend that no-one should be given hourly work until they have proven themselves.

Seemingly many other clients have voiced similar disapproval. So why doesn't Upwork do the right thing?

Or is setting the budget a means of saving the time of freeelancers who are on Upwork payroll?

[browersr]

@William - with regards to hourly work, I disagree. Of course it depends on your area but not all areas are cut out for a fixed bid on this type of platform. If you have a known commodity that is easily reproducible, then fixed bid can certainly be viable. However, if you have a complex project then it's folly to expect a freelancer to get enough information upfront to provide a reasonable fixed bid. As a result they will have to either pad it significantly to cover the very real and very high risks or make the mistake of giving too low a number which will lose them money. The client may think that is the freelancer's problem until the freelancers disappears in order to stop losing money or provides far less quality and perhaps in a way that the client will not immediately know (i.e. if a coding project as an example). No freelancer should take the hours and hours upfront for free which would be necessary to get all of the product specs required for a shot at a reasonable fixed bid. Not too many clients willing to pay to spend the hours necessary to develop a good plan either. 

This site gives the client the ability to set a max hourly per week for hourly clients. It defaults to 40 which is far too high for a new relationship. It should be set low so as to limit risk and see how things progress. This is how a client can reasonably handle these kinds of contracts. Also clients looking to pay pennies on the dollar for the work should expect a commensurate result. People who know what they are doing and have a record of delivery will charge accordingly.  

This isn't to suggest that Upwork cannot handle fixed bid contracts better. It is to suggest though that hourly contracts can and do work better than alluded to if taking advantage of both platform features and qualified candidates. 

[prestonhunter]

It certainly doesn't help freelancers to require clients to post a budget.

And we know clients would prefer to not be required to do so.

I honestly don't know WHY this is required. My best guess: inertia.

[15186d5f]

@scott we are the client and the one paying for the job. It should be our decision as to whether a budget is posted or not!

Sure, hourly rates can work but only in ideal cases and only after the freelancer has proven himself to be honest and capable of producing during the time that they claim.

On some recent jobs I posted a budget and too many applicants suggested moving to an hourly rate. Sorry but I do not hire people to learn how to do the job. Those jobs were quite simple and should have taken 1-2 hours for anyone who knew what they were doing. In the end I went with the right people at a fixed price and they finished the job in good time. Oh, except for one who I had to cancel who was hopeless... now if I had him on an hourly rate it could have gotten quite messy.

I have used hourly rate on much larger jobs and the success rate was 50/50 and that was after we had already worked on a priced jobs beforehand.

On a most recent job an "agency" estimated 110 hours for a job that should take an experienced VB script coder no more than 2-3 hours. So getting a price from the freelancer independent of any suggested budget is most important because it helps us to weed the garden!

[browersr]

@William - I stated in my post "This isn't to suggest that Upwork cannot handle fixed bid contracts better". So I am not at all arguing this point with you. In fact I agree that as the client it should absolutely be your decision about what budget if any to post.

I am not sure why you equate an hourly job with hiring someone so that they can learn. I am not suggesting that this cannot happen with a bad hire, but that fact is not endemic to an hourly job. Also, creating an hourly job does not mean you cannot have the conversation upfront about how long something should take. So one can still "weed the garden" during upfront discussions. Additionally, setting the max hours to a reasonable low number can help quickly identify a really bad hire before many hours are expended. At the end of the day, neither contract method can replace the importance of the interview process.  

My overall point is that one cannot carte blanche throw out hourly contracts. They may not be for you for a variety of reasons but there are also tons of success stories. If you have a very well defined problem to solve then fix bid may be great for both parties. However, as mentioned in many areas the paucity of information and the need for iterative delivery and pivots makes fixed bids untenable. 

[15186d5f]

@Scott re "I am not sure why you equate an hourly job with hiring someone so that they can learn"...

Granted that there are a lot of freelancers hungry for work, and a lot of them are applying for work for which they really have little experience. When looking for a coder to update an existing WordPress plugin, ie: change the code for browser detection, I encountered a lot of applicants wanting to work on an hourly basis. The job should have taken 2 hours max including the time spent in discussion and submitting a resume because they didn't bother to read the job requirements properly.

Most of the self claimed "WorPress plugin developers" were not plugin developers or coders at all but only web designers who use ready made plugins to build a web site. And they had the audacity to suggest that they would only work on an hourly basis???

And that is what I meant about "paying for them to learn how to do the task".

There are too many con-artists claiming that pay-by-the hour is the "new" thing. But I have been paying and charging by the hour for 40 years! However that is arrived at only after establishing performnce and trust.

[browersr]

@William -

It is unfortunate that you have had this experience here although I have to admit I am not terribly surprised. There is no test for hocking your wares here so profiles and interviews are extremely important. Of course even with that the client may not have the right expertise to properly vet a technical resource. There are plenty of freelancers here willing to work for pennies on the dollar which is of course the first red flag. Even at a fixed price you can get someone incompetent which obviously doesn't help you either. At the end of the day, using a platform like this comes with risks and to find the right people the client may have to be wiling to pay more and concentrate on those with a proven track record. Otherwise you might get the contract you want but the bad results remain. Not an awesome outcome given the contract type isn't the end goal here. 

[15186d5f]

@Scott it is the mandatory setting of a budget for the fixed price option that is the problem and it has to go!

It does not work. It is stupid. It is useless. It has to go!

[browersr]

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William K wrote:

@Scott it is the mandatory setting of a budget for the fixed price option that is the problem and it has to go!

It does not work. It is stupid. It is useless. It has to go!

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@William - as previously stated, I agree with you on this point. 

[15186d5f]

@Scott so who do we need to jump up and down on to get it fixed?

[iandg]

I am trying to post a $100 project budget, but when I put it into the file I get a message saying "Minimum budget is 5 US Dollars " even though I am well in excess of $5 I can seem to set the budget

[759e32fa]

Hi celia,

Thank you for reaching out to us. I shared your report with our team and one of our agents will reach out to you via a support ticket to assist you further. You can access your support tickets here.

[prestonhunter]

re: "I am trying to post a $100 project budget, but when I put it into the file I get a message saying 'Minimum budget is 5 US Dollars' even though I am well in excess of $5 I can seem to set the budget"

Definitely sounds like a glitch. Not acceptable.

If I was in this situation, I would post the job as an hourly contract.