Paying for unread applications

[6349924a]

I am really happy with Upworks new feature that allows me to see when my applications have been read and reviewed. It is shocking and extremely disheartening to see so many of my applications which I PAY FOR to submit, go UNOPENED and UNREAD, despite submiting them within just a few hours or days since the job ad was posted. Only 5 out of 16 of my applications over the last 2 months have even been viewed. Less than 1/3. 

I think if potential clients are not even willing to read the applications within a certain time period we should have our connect money refunded and/or there should be penalties for clients who advertise and then can't be bothered to read the responses.

And clients: If you've filled your post, CLOSE the ad. If you're still reviewing, then review ALL the applications. There are literally no more than 15 applications to most of the jobs I'm responding to, usually no more than 5 or 10, its not an overwhelming or unmanageable amount. 

[0df58304 · Accepted solution]

Yes, I agree with you that we should receive a connection refund because some clients' applications went unopened.

[5ebd3b76]

I 

[e3fbb864]

• You are so right.

[tgcodes]

I totally agree!

[8a074783]

Today i apply for a job and client didn't see it and hire someone else and i just received my connects back i don't know may be upwork change it. but if upwork did it tehn its a great thing. 

[3c7a8866]

It is my understanding that you will get your connects back If you BID on proposal A
ND you were outbid before the client has seen your proposal. You can check this in the notification tab (bell icon next to your profile photo). I don't think Upwork refunds connects for unread proposals in general. Woudl be nice so. 

[yofazza]

a few hours or days

Try seconds or minutes 😁

Less than 1/3

It's normal these days, including for the non-boosters.

[73e1f459]

IS IT A PAID OR FREE FEATURE?

[6349924a]

free to see whether your applications have been opened or not

[khanrosebel63]

I completely agree with you.

Thanks 🙂

[b77eb9be]

I am in the same situation and being new to UW I thought there was monitoring of the traffic both ways. UW is selling a product, which is not being delivered and still charging for it, that is not fair. 

I would like to see a system brought in whereby if applications are not read after a certain time (3 weeks) the application can be withdrawn , feedback submitted and connects refunded.

This will have several positive outcomes and lead to a vast improvement in the service. Continuing the system as it operates today leaves all control in the hands of the client, unfortunately many of them are abusing the service and the subscribers are suffering for that.

[the-right-writer]

I have no idea why freelancers think leaving jobs open is harmful. Clients may hire weeks after posting. I know this to be true, because it happens to me. Unlike many clients, some really care about quality and advanced skills. If they can't find anyone, you want them to leave?

Leaving jobs open hurts no one. Stop wanting to deny me income.

Oh, wait, this isn't about jobs being open, it is about the darned connects!

OK, well, connects are a business expense. If you can't use on your taxes, then budget appropriately.

Do you think you should freelance for free? How will you manage to create a site like Upwork? Are there problems? Yep, and serious ones related to the flood of unskilled. But spending money to make money is not just a saying.

Learn how to budget for connects, so you are not sitting and waiting. Apply only for jobs you are highly qualified for, and don't boost unless you know you are one of the best.

[atreglia]

---

Jeanne H wrote:

Leaving jobs open hurts no one. Stop wanting to deny me income.

No need to cop a strawman's defense.  Nobody said, implied, or has any desire to deny you your income.

Oh, wait, this isn't about jobs being open, it is about the darned connects!

But of course.  How annoying we've all been brought to this level.

OK, well, connects are a business expense.

No, they are not.  They are a bloated operating expense born by Upwork but passed along to us so they don't have to skim the herd.  There's no sugar coating that into a freelancer business expense and I'm not sure why you continue to try.

[the-right-writer]

No need to cop a strawman's defense. Nobody said, implied, or has any desire to deny you your income.

You need to look up the definition. Yes, when you want to remove jobs for some reason, that impacts my investments. Just because you don't get hired later on, doesn't mean others do not.

But of course. How annoying we've all been brought to this level.

If you don't want to invest even tiny amounts, your business will collapse. Who is paying for your other business expenses. Connects should be the tiniest amount in your budget.

No, they are not. They are a bloated operating expense born by Upwork but passed along to us so they don't have to skim the herd. There's no sugar coating that into a freelancer business expense and I'm not sure why you continue to try.

Because it is a business expense. If you want to find a free platform, good luck. The only ones are horrible, and still charge an exit fee for jobs. Of course, it is a way for Upwork to make money. That does not negate connects are a business expense and if you are spending a lot of money on them with a poor ROI, you are doing something wrong.

[tlsanders]

When a newspaper or television station sells advertising, it is for the newspaper or television station to make money. Does that change the fact that advertising is a business expense for the companies that choose to advertise? 

Oh, wait...this is true of EVERYTHING. Comcast offers businesses internet service to make money...contractors work for other companies to make money...property owners lease office space to make money...and still, somehow, those are all business expenses.

If you buy connects in an effort to bring in work, that is a business expense. (If you're so adamantly opposed to that, by all means refrain from deducting them on your taxes in protest.) If you think it's useless and do it anyway, it's an ill-advised and foolish business expense, but a business expense nonetheless. 

If you're spending money to find work and it's not profitable,  STOP. That's the nature of running a business. 

[3c7a8866]

I can see your point of connects being a business expense. What is troubling is that the number of connects required are arbitrary. Why do I have to spend 12 connects on a proposal to a client new on upwork w/o verified payment method? Because they are offering a high amount (but then require you to spend hundreds of hours basically earning $5/hr) ? In addition we don't get any info about the client. If we are lucky we can see the country they presumably reside in. Other proposals for established clients having hired on Upwork previously require only 4 or 6.

We need more transparency how the number of connects is determined.

In addition, some job offers are not very detailed or confusing e.g. the headlines says 'looking for video editor' but the description sound like they also want that freelancer to make the video. Does 'make' pertain to create the footage aka being a videographer, or 'make' as in edit the video footage the client will provide. I have no way to ask the prospect these clarifying questions unless I 'waste' some connects. 

Yes, I could ignore all these 'questionable' proposals which require a high amount of connects with no info about the prospect and confusing job details. Alas, that leaves me with almost nothing to apply to. 

Last, I think it woudl be an improvement if Upwork implements a 'reject' button for prospects. If they don't want to read all the proposals they receive at least the freelancer get's a quick feedback, instead of being left wondering. It's not that I cold emailed someone. I actually responded to a job offer with a tailored cover letter.  When I hired through Upwork a few years ago I sent a quick note to all freelancers that applied letting them know that I have filled the position or that they are not a good fit for what I need. It's common courtesy.

[6349924a]

I couldn't agree more. It would be nice to hear a response form Upwork about what they plan to do about this. 

[kfarnell]

From a general 'it's nice if things are tidy' point of view, proactively encouraging posters to close projects if they no longer need someone needn't be a bad thing. But placing a time limit for responding (especially a short one) could be.

Apart from the fact many of us are awarded projects weeks, if not months, after they're first posted, it raises another issue. If the posters are forced to move quickly, they'll expect equally speedy responses from the freelancer. It will be harder to say something like 'I can get to that in about two weeks' - you'll be expected to launch into it immediately. So you may end up having to turn down a project you could have otherwise accepted. And it favours smaller projects against larger projects as they're more likely to be awarded quickly.

It will also add pressure when something goes wrong, because there won't be room for patience with customer services if there's a deadline to meet.

Every change has knock-on effects. That could be a seriously detrimental one.

[6349924a]

You're missing the main point of the post. We don't have a problem paying for connects, or indeed with you leaving the job post open. What we object to is submitting applications which we pay for, for them to go UNREAD for weeks on end/forever. If you post a job ad you should be willing to read the responses of ALL the applicants. If you are not willing to do that then you should close the ad before more people pay with connects to apply to a job that the client won't even bother to open. Please take the time to read and understand the original post properly so we can find a way to work together in a way that makes sense for all of us. We're not enemies and I'm sure you can appreciate how frustrating it is to be paying to apply for jobs that the client doesn't even bother to OPEN! can we find a solution that works for all of us?

I fully understand what you're saying about the need to keep a job post open in order to find the best candidate, but your argument isn't valid here. You can only know that the right candidate hasn't applied yet if you've opened and read and dismissed ALL the applications to date. As long as applications go UNREAD you cannot argue that the best candidate has yet to apply. 

[b77eb9be]

Thank you Zurine

[tlsanders]

---

Zurine S wrote:

You can only know that the right candidate hasn't applied yet if you've opened and read and dismissed ALL the applications to date. As long as applications go UNREAD you cannot argue that the best candidate has yet to apply. 

---

You obviously have never posted a job. It is often VERY easy to rule out candidates without opening the proposal. You see their title, JSS, earnings, and first two lines of the proposal without opening the proposal. 

[3c7a8866]

Upwork should implement a 'reject' button for the prospet to hit after seeing this info and deciding the applicant is not a good fit. 

[tmcdos]

Exactly! I remeber such a button used to exist in the past because I've received a couple of rejections from clients - but 98% of the time clients just DO NOT BOTHER. It is simpler and easier to just go away and ignore all the efforts and connects of the freelancers.

[melaniekhenson]

A client wants as LITTLE hassle as is possible. They are busy, like you. But...the difference is that *you* need to woo *them*. It is like this anywhere in freelancing, and in other industries as well.

People head to freelancing because they believe it is low risk, low work, high reward. It is the opposite of the first two...you have to win over every client you get. Clients come here to *cut out* some of the work and risk vetting freelancers would otherwise take.

[melaniekhenson]

---

Zurine S wrote:

You're missing the main point of the post. We don't have a problem paying for connects, or indeed with you leaving the job post open. What we object to is submitting applications which we pay for, for them to go UNREAD for weeks on end/forever. If you post a job ad you should be willing to read the responses of ALL the applicants. If you are not willing to do that then you should close the ad before more people pay with connects to apply to a job that the client won't even bother to open. Please take the time to read and understand the original post properly so we can find a way to work together in a way that makes sense for all of us. We're not enemies and I'm sure you can appreciate how frustrating it is to be paying to apply for jobs that the client doesn't even bother to OPEN! can we find a solution that works for all of us?

I fully understand what you're saying about the need to keep a job post open in order to find the best candidate, but your argument isn't valid here. You can only know that the right candidate hasn't applied yet if you've opened and read and dismissed ALL the applications to date. As long as applications go UNREAD you cannot argue that the best candidate has yet to apply. 

---

Also...I agree that freelancers and clients are not enemies. We all work together. But...what you're missing is that clients can tell things without opening an application.

In addition, with 50+ applications, they simply will not all get read. Not by most clients anyway.

Nobody is trying to do you harm; they are they are trying to get a job done at a good rate, by someone who is qualified. And that is all.

Imagine being required to read 50 or 100 full applications from applicants you were already able to tell weren't what you needed -- for every single project you had. If it were a rule that clients must read all applications, clients would bail. No clients, no projects.

It costs money to advertise yourself, such as with Facebook ads. And there is zero guarantee of getting even one gig, after spending hundreds of dollars. Connects for jobs you may not be considered for are overhead, too.

[3c7a8866]

---

We all work together. But...what you're missing is that clients can tell things without opening an application.

In addition, with 50+ applications, they simply will not all get read. Not by most clients anyway.

Imagine being required to read 50 or 100 full applications from applicants you were already able to tell weren't what you needed -- for every single project you had. If it were a rule that clients must read all applications, clients would bail. No clients, no projects.

 Upwork should implement a 'reject' button for the prospet to hit after seeing the preliminary info  and if the applicant is not a good fit. 

[melaniekhenson]

---

Diana A wrote:

---

We all work together. But...what you're missing is that clients can tell things without opening an application.

In addition, with 50+ applications, they simply will not all get read. Not by most clients anyway.

Imagine being required to read 50 or 100 full applications from applicants you were already able to tell weren't what you needed -- for every single project you had. If it were a rule that clients must read all applications, clients would bail. No clients, no projects.

 Upwork should implement a 'reject' button for the prospet to hit after seeing the preliminary info  and if the applicant is not a good fit. 

---

There is no good reason to make things more cluttered for clients. They'll bail. 

[tmcdos]

Having a big RED reject button INSIDE the freelancer profile/details (around the proposal) is the most convenient thing for both sides - but apparently not for Upwork ....

[tlsanders]

I'm not sure who you're speaking for when you say "we don't have a problem with paying for connects," but hundreds of freelancers in these discussions have insisted they should not have to pay for connects at all. 

The solution to the problem you speak of is to somehow stop unqualified freelancers from bombarding clients with junk proposals unrelated to their jobs. That experience is a big part of the reason clients end up not reading proposals, and that they end up leaving the platform without hiring. 

The optimal solution to end that problem would be a minimum $5 fee for any proposal, or a hard cap of 10-20 proposals per freelancer per month. But, both of these solutions would cost Upwork money and would adversely impact freelancers who are new, have lower-cost skills or live in lower cost of living countries and rely on leveraging the cost differential. 

[tmcdos]

Having a cap of 20 proposals per month sounds right - and not overly expensive for the freelancers.

[tanay303]

Yes I agree

[sillysolutions]

Agree with you. I think they only read first few applications with highest bidders and ignore all others causing us loos our Precious connects 😅

[tlsanders]

So...the freelancers who fail to catch the client's attention and are of the least interest to the client should get connects back to continue to flood job posts, while the freelancers who wrote strong proposals and had a solid enough profile to interest the client should pay? How does it make sense to reward freelancers clients aren't interested in? 

[b77eb9be]

Hi Tiffany, You are not getting the point of this. The issue raised is that Buyers are not reading the submission, which questions your theory about a weak submission. No one that I know is afraid of the competition, it drives us all to improve. I have 30 unread submissions, how does the buyer know the content is good, bad, strong or weak if they dont read  them?? I always pay to go to the top of the Bid process - explain please if you can.

[tlsanders]

Let's see...

Your JSS is **bleep**? 

The job is for a web designer and your title says you're a Data Entry Specialist?

The first two lines of your proposal clearly show that you didn't read the post or don't understand the job? 

The first two lines of your proposal are incomprehensible? 

The first two lines of your proposal contain an obvious lie (such as "I have 100% JSS" when it clearly reads 92)?

Those are just a few examples of when it is screamingly obvious that there's no point in opening a proposal. But, that really misses the point, anyway. 

If the client can see your JSS, your title, your earnings, whether you've completed similar jobs and the first two lines of your proposal and that isn't enough to inspire them to spend 3 seconds opening your proposal and glancing to see whether they want to read further, one of two things is happening: either you don't make a very good impression or the client has been slammed with so many garbage proposals that they never even scroll all the way through the previews.

[tmcdos]

If there was a BIG red button titled REJECT inside the freelancer details - it is just 1-click away of the client. The client can quickly click these REJECT buttons to all the suspicious proposals - so that Upwork moves these proposals in the archive and the freelancers get notified that their proposal was rejected (even if not being read at all)

[ladyelexia]

Have you taken a look at the job boards lately? There are hundreds of postings each day that have 50+ applications. The client NEVER opens a single one, and often never comes back to that job post at all. It is not about a failure to garner attention, it is about inactive clients not hiring anyone and freelancers having to pay for that each time. The connect system itself is a good idea, but the weird way its implemented is not. There are jobs that have a $25 value that takes 8 connects to apply. There are $500 value jobs in THE SAME niche, that take 4 connects for an application. It's so random. 

[the-right-writer]

That's why freelancers need to look at the jobs and the clients, and not apply for anything and everything.

[tlsanders]

So you assume that some of those 50 proposals must be great options for the client?

It's not necessary to come back to the job post to keep tabs. Upwork sends many emails notifying you of specific freelancers who have sent proposals, with the same basic information you'll find in the proposal listing. 

And, of course, Upwork's tracking of things like proposals, profile visits, hires, etc. are often broken or lagging, so you can't really know whether the client has come back to the posting or not.