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08b2ac0a
Community Member

Please help with justice

Dear all,

On the 1st of October 2019, I started a contract for a project (payroll system). I paid the freelancer $100 as a measure of goodwill. He delivered absolutely nothing. Then, we engaged in developing two websites, and he got paid fully for it. Then, in the second half of November 2019, I started getting into a breakdown.

 

Because of the personal and health situation I was going through, I gave him another $500. Then, after few days from that, early December, I got into the top point of the breakdown and was hospitalized. My life was fully destroyed and went upside down; for about two years, I was as if dead. The freelancer whom I was all good to him didn't even bother to check why I was disconnected and terminated the contract in mid 2020.

 

Needless to say, he kept the money as if nothing happened. He delivered absolutely nothing regarding this project, and for me, the money he kept was an act of stealing. With such a person, I really don't even want to communicate, and wish to open a dispute to get my money back in full especially that I have too much debt to pay back to people that trusted me. I just sent him few minutes ago a short message telling that what he did was wrong, and that I am opening a dispute and following the case until the end.

This freelancer got a job(s) through me with my friend on Upwork, and I paid him in full for two websites (two separate projects on Upwork), and still, he stole $600 for something he didn't do, and didn't care about what happened to me. I used to pay freelancers more when I can before the breakdown, and this can be seen by Upwork team. Sincerely, I wish not to communicate with the freelancer in question at all; how should I proceed? Kindly note that the “request refund” and other options are not available due to the time of the transaction.

 

Note: just before submitting this text, literally just before clicking the submit button, the freelancer called me on Whatsapp because of the short message I sent him! And he started blaming me!! I asked why he didn't contact me, and he said that he was always communicating message after another. I told him that I didn't see any, he said it was on Whatsapp! Directly I asked him to send me screenshot of these messages, and he didn't know what to answer because he might be a liar. He started arguing; I said I don't want to argue and don't have time for that, and that I was about to click the submit button for begining the process of getting the money people trusted me with back. I requested video call so that he sees my message but he declined. Then, I told him that I will read the message above as is for him. Without finishing the second line, he interrupted me, and then said that he doesn't have the time and hanged up. I believe he did so because he thinks I can't do anything because the deadline had passed long ago, but I was hospitalized, and this was a valid reason with the police, and hopefully, it will be valid also with Upwork. If you are among Upwork support team, please see his chat with me from the beginning and judge the situation, and help with justice.

 

Just before submitting again, he started messaging me on Whatsapp. I replied hoping to resolve the problem, but he was just arguing. Then, he asked me to contact my friend whom I introduced him to, and who gave him contract on Upwork. I did contact my friend, and he said he didn’t receive anything regarding this payroll project, and that the quality of the freelancer’s work for his separate project wasn’t good.

32 REPLIES 32
petra_r
Community Member


Ali N wrote:

On the 1st of October 2019,


This is long over.

 

It's time to move on.

08b2ac0a
Community Member

Thanks for your reply, but there were special circumstances surrounding this case. It is not about moving on, it is about seeking justice. He was paid, he delivered nothing. He was supposed to, but I had severe health problems, and we lost connection. He didn't even contact me to check what happened. He should have at least sent a message, just one short message via Upwork about the project, but he didn't. He didn't neither send an email; he didn't contact me at all.

 

I didn't see not even a  line of code; I didn't see a button. I had many projects on Upwork, and I was approving every step even when the project cost was just $10. His project was the biggest I had here, and I didn't approve anything; in fact, I didn't see anything to approve.

 

Again, thanks for your reply, but justice is justice, and it is in general not limited by a time frame; and in my specific case, time surely doesn't apply. I don't know what Upwork team will say about this case, I don't know about their rules, but justice is justice.

petra_r
Community Member


Ali N wrote:

I don't know what Upwork team will say about this case, I don't know about their rules,


Their rules say that you can dispute up to 30 days after the last payment was made to the freelancer. It is now February 2022.

 

They will tell you that they are sorry that you had a poor experience with the freelancer, and that there is nothing they can do because you left it way too late.

 

As far as "justice" is concerned, if the freelancer lives in the same jurisdiction and can afford to pay the costs, you can try and get "justice" through the courts.

 

Ali N wrote:

I really don't even want to communicate, and wish to open a dispute to get my money back in full .


Just to be clear. This isn't going to happen. You are literally years outside the dispute deadline.

08b2ac0a
Community Member


Petra R wrote:

Just to be clear. This isn't going to happen. You are literally years outside the dispute deadline.

Thanks for the information and reply.

I would rather wait for Upwork answer, with the hope that they will reply here with positive directions. In any case, I will be in touch with them: Upwork team. I posted here to get their advise because I noticed that in other posts, to other community members, they do reply.

 

No, he doesn't live in the same jurisdication; and as for the time span, the police has stricter rules, and jail is the place to go in their case. There was an issue with my former ~landlord due to the health problems I had, and I couldn't be in touch with the police who tried to contact me multiple times through different communicatoin channels. After a long time, when I was abit back on my feet and could reach to them, I contacted them explaining the case, provided evidence and all was good.

petra_r
Community Member


Ali N wrote: I would rather wait for Upwork answer, with the hope that they will reply here with positive directions..

They will refer you to the terms of service (which they themselves can't violate either)

There it says that you can dispute up to 30 days after payment, and get non-binding mediation (meaning they could only suggest a solution, not enforce it) for up to 6 months. That's all there is to it.

 


Ali N wrote:No, he doesn't live in the same jurisdication

Then this is over.

Here is what the legally binding terms of service you agreed to be bound by say:

 

  1. Dispute Mediation Deadline: Dispute Mediation must be initiated within 30 calendar days of the date that funds in Escrow have been released to the Freelancer in order to be eligible for the Dispute Assistance Program under this Section 6.2. Any dispute over funds that have been released from Escrow more than 30 days prior to the date the dispute is filed is no longer eligible for submission to the Dispute Assistance Program.

 

(source)

 

08b2ac0a
Community Member



They will refer you to the terms of service 


Thanks a lot Petra for your effort; I do really appreciate it, but there is no loss in waiting for their reply. The police had stricter rules, and jail was the place to go, and they considered the circumstances. Thanks again Petra, and all the best.

But your pursuit of justice is accomplishing nothing other than bringing harm to yourself.


Preston H wrote:

But your pursuit of justice is accomplishing nothing other than bringing harm to yourself.


Thanks for your reply.

What harm?

In any case, pursuiting justice is above all, not regarding this issue alone, but regarding everything, regarding all. If it is accomplished now, it is good. If not, it will be accomplished later. No matter what, justice will always prevail.

petra_r
Community Member


Ali N wrote: No matter what, justice will always prevail.

Not on the planet I inhabit.

08b2ac0a
Community Member



Not on the planet I inhabit.


Well said. But we weren't created for nothing, and justice will prevail one day; here in this temporary life on this planet, or in the real permenant one; I only seek justice because I am obliged to, but don't really care if accomplished on earth. And honestly, now this issue is abit hard for me because of how good I was to the freelancer, but one day soon, I will forgive him between me and God (swt). Among hundreds, he is not the first that did something bad to me after being good to them, and won't be the last. And the theory of evolution as advertised doesn't exist; it can't be proven in any way; no way.  I mentioned this because there is a permenant life after death, and justice will prevail soon or later, but once I forgive, it will be over. Please, I am not after convincing you about the eternal life, and don't wish to debate or argue, and we are all free to believe in what we want; in my case, I have put too much time and effort to learn about the truth since 17 years ago. I only mentioned the eternal life to explain my answer to Preston. In either way, thanks Petra for your replies and time; I do appreciate them.

AveryO
Community Manager
Community Manager

Hi Ali, 


I'm sorry to learn about your experience with this contract. I hope you're doing well and feeling better. 

I looked into your contract, and as Petra has shared, dispute Mediation can only be offered for funds released in the past 30-days. Refunds can only be requested for funds released within 180-days for funds. I recommend that you try communicating with the freelancer to see if you can reach an amicable settlement. If you want to pursue the legal route, you may check our subpoena protocol. 

I hope you and your freelancer can resolve this soon. 


~ Avery
Upwork
08b2ac0a
Community Member


Avery O wrote:

I'm sorry to learn about your experience with this contract. I hope you're doing well and feeling better. 


Hi Avery,

Thank you, I do appreciate this. I am much better.

The only issue in my case is the time deadline. I wish to speak to a client manager at Upwork. Could you please provide me with an email for this purpose? Email, phone number or any other mean of communication. I noticed that Upwork team reach to people who have issue by opening a ticket; this was the case for all posts I saw on this forum. If you can't put me in touch with a client manager, could you please open a ticket? The main reason I wrote this post is to be in touch directly with Upwork. There was a severe reason behind passing the deadline, and if the police took that as a valid reason although they have stricter deadlines, I hope Upwork will do.

AveryO
Community Manager
Community Manager

Hi Ali, 


I have asked a member of the team to reach out to you through an email to share more information with you regarding your concern. 


~ Avery
Upwork
tagrendy
Community Member

Sorry for the health issues you had to go through, I don't think much can be done though. If Freelancer delivered nothing but got paid, it's the same kind of shenanigan when freelancers keep tracking hours on unsuspecting clients. While Upwork cannot refund you, I do think they should evaluate the Freelancer's account for fraud-like activity.


Tatevik G wrote:

Sorry for the health issues you had to go through, ...


Thanks a lot Tatevik; I do really appreciate this.
Well noted regarding your thoughts about the case.

Thanks again and all the best.

ericaandrews
Community Member

It's now almost 3 years later, so there is no 'justice' to be had right now, especially not from a chat forum.  This board is for freelancers: So going on the freelancer board and complaining you got ripped off by a freelancer is likely not going to do much, since we have no authority to 'enforce' any contracts between you and somebody else.

 

Next time: Don't PAY people before work has been performed or received. If you paid once and didn't get anything in return, then you shouldn't have paid a SECOND time.  It is also not a freelancers JOB to 'check' on your well-being or determine why you vanished and discontinued communicating.  This is a MARKET PLACE where freelancers sell SERVICES:  A freelancer is no more "obligated' to check on your well being or try to 'trace' your whereabouts than the Plumber you call to unclog a toilet or the mechanic you see when your car won't start. A freelancer is a Service Provider, not a personal 'friend' or a care-taker.  Unless "show concern for my well being" and "check my whereabouts if I disappear"  were included in the job post you hired the freelancer under, those are not 'services' he/she should be expected to provide.  

 

A freelancer, just like a client, has the right to END and CLOSE a contract at any time and for any reason, especially if the client has simply 'disappear' and stopped communicating.  The contract is closed.  The money is Gone. It's almost 3 years later, and there's nothing you can do.  Let it go and move on.


CJ A wrote:

It's now almost 3 years later, so there is no 'justice' to be had right now, especially not from a chat forum.  This board is for freelancers: So going on the freelancer board and complaining


Thanks for your reply. I wrote through this forum because as stated above, I couldn't dispute the case due to time span; I couldn't also open a support ticket. This was the most relevant sub-forum. There won't be a next time if this money is gone.

Thanks again for your reply.

petra_r
Community Member


Ali N wrote:. There won't be a next time if this money is gone.

The money is gone. Upwork have confirmed that the money is gone. It's been gone for years.

 

08b2ac0a
Community Member


Petra R wrote:

Ali N wrote:. There won't be a next time if this money is gone.

Why do you act as if we are in a war against each other? Maybe you didn't read Upwork's reply in full: "If you want to pursue the legal route, you may check our subpoena protocol.If you can't write something useful or positive, please don't.

petra_r
Community Member

I did read it.

That means you can get a subpoena to get Upwork to release the freelancer's details to you and then you can try to take legal action against the freelancer in the freelancer's country.


Obviously that is not cost effective for the sake of $600 which you may not even get back even if you did launch and win an expensive laswuit in a foreign country...

 

As far as Upwork is concerned, this is over.

 

 

 

08b2ac0a
Community Member

Thanks Petra; actually I tried to call the company to enquire, but there was no answer.

You saved me time, thank you.

 


Petra R wrote:

As far as Upwork is concerned, this is over.


Unfortunately, this might be the case. After all, they did take their profit, their two-sided commission. The police considered the circumstances, and Upwork won't. Let them be happy with their rules and law.

petra_r
Community Member


Ali N wrote:

 


Petra R wrote:

As far as Upwork is concerned, this is over.


Unfortunately, this might be the case.


No, that *is* the case.

The sooner you let go, the sooner you can move on and continue healing.

08b2ac0a
Community Member



No, that *is* the case.

The sooner you let go, the sooner you can move on and continue healing.


Please see my reply to Avery, and you will understand why I said might.

I told you I am after Upwork reply only, and you kept writing.

I told you afterward (indirectly) to kindly not write anymore, and you kept writing.

Healing? healing from what? People?

And justice doesn't need quotation marks.

Please don't write in my post anymore.

Thank you very much for your time and effort.

 

 

 

 

3cc1ece0
Community Member

**Edited for Community Guidelines**

You remember you paid something but not remember you receive anything?

it has been 3 yrs.

Who knows the fact?


Who knows the fact?


Thanks for your good words and intention.

Upwork knows the fact. They have everything recorded: messages, deliveries, payments; everything.

How about whatpsapp conversation?

re:" the freelancer called me on Whatsapp because of the short message I sent him"

??

petra_r
Community Member

 Puppy B - who are you and how are you involved in all this?


Puppy B wrote:

re:" the freelancer called me on Whatsapp because of the short message I sent him"

??


My message was through Upwork. Then, he called to argue, and he hanged up. I added that part to my post, and again, he started messaging me on my phone (Whatsapp). I hoped to resolve it for the second time, and he was only about arguing that he did work. He couldn't because there is 0 work submitted regarding this project via Upwork or any other venue; and I didn't see or approve anything, not a line of code, a color, a button or anything. He asked me to contact my friend who gave him a contract because of me. I did, and my friend told me that he neither saw or received anything regarding this project, and that the quality of the freelancer's work of his own personal project wasn't good.


Puppy B wrote:

How about whatpsapp conversation?


I can provide them with it; with everything I have. I can provide you with it as well if you desire so, but I don't wish to publish it publicly.

Ali:
Most of the people who participate in the community forum have a more mercenary mentality than you do.

 

This is true whether we are a freelancer (which is a loose synonym for "mercenary") or a client, or both.

 

This includes myself.


Most of the people I know who are regular forum participants simply can not relate to your perspective.

 

You may need to think of it as similar to a modern, 21st century nuclear physicist trying to explain his problems at work to a 15th century Arnaian josinch artisan. Neither side is necessarily "wrong." But their way of thinking is so vastly different that there are limits in how much they can understand each other.


Preston H wrote:

You may need to think of it as similar to a modern, 21st century nuclear physicist trying to explain his problems at work to a 15th century Arnaian josinch artisan. Neither side is necessarily "wrong." But their way of thinking is so vastly different that there are limits in how much they can understand each other.


Thanks Preston for your reply.

You are right; different people, different views.

In my case, I just hoped that Upwork would look into the time deadline due to the unfortunate events I went through. I thought they would easily do so because the police in Luxembourg did, and they do have stricter deadlines and rules. The inspector in charge of my case reported it to higher management (attroney general included). They studied the case, took the facts into consideration, and all was good.

 

Many years ago, probably 2015, there was a relatable issue with Orange, the telecommunication provider. I contacted them and they said nothing can be done because of their rules; then, I requested to be in touch with the manager, and they did positively answer my request. He said he will study the case with his committee (mid-level probably). After few days, the matter was resolved. The amount back then was lower than the one in this issue, and I didn't really need money back then at all. I was just seeking justice, and Orange helped.

 

In any case, thanks a lot Preston, and you are right with your words, and also with your example, different people, different minds, different views.

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