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kevngash
Community Member

Poor quality work

Hi Community! So I gave some work to a freelancer and he delivered very low quality work. Now I feel like I am being swindled because he claims In a dispute that he wants full compensation? His work was so bad yet he wants compensation for that. Is that how upwork work with clients? Please guide me on this, as I believe arbitration will be the last resort as I cannot pay for the kind of work he delivered. Please guide me on the steps and payment for arbitration! 

 

PS I have attached a file of what he calls  "good work". It is supposed to be a self help book but he gave me a comic book cover that has been done very poorly!

ACCEPTED SOLUTION
bobafett999
Community Member

I am sure some expert will give you advice on your options.

 

But, let me tell you some facts.

1. You get what you pay for.  Lowest rate = Lowest quality.

2. Buying stuff from Upwork is not like sticking 50 cents in a soda machine and expect the machine to deliver you a can of coke.

3. Instead buying stuff from Upwork is like (I believe Tom Hanks said it in one of his movies) buying a box of chocolate.  You never know what you will get.

 

Kevin I am editing this after I saw Tiffany's advice.  Take it. 

 

$75 in over all scheme of things is not a huge amount. May be you can spin it your way in your self-help book.  Forgive snd forget.

View solution in original post

47 REPLIES 47
tlsanders
Community Member

Kevin, how much money is in dispute? Are you aware that arbitration requires a non-refundable $291 fee from each party?

Hi Tifanny, the amount in dispute is 75$. But I am willing to go the arbitration way because the freelancer has categorically said he has to be paid. His work was very bad!

Hm...you paid $75 for a book cover?

 

Sounds like you got what you paid for, but chances are that you will win and get your money back if you do pay for arbitration--if the freelancer doesn't pay his $291, you automatically win and the money is refunded because there was no need to hire the arbitrator.

 

I'd think seriously about whether or not this is worth fighting, though. Someone who would create a book cover for $75 is obviously very desperate for money, and whether or not the final product was what you were looking for, he did put in the time. If I were in your shoes, I would probably pay him and cut my losses, or at least offer half. It's not really surprising that he's insisting on payment, as it's beyond imagination that anyone would take on that job for $75 unless his survival depended upon it. That's probably his week's groceries you're fighting over there.

 

Anything about good karma, charitable intentions, choosing your battles, etc. in your self-help book?

I think I am willing to pay for arbitration, becuse It is all about ethics. Just taking random contracts and working them poorly just because you worked is bad for freelancing. 

I think you have an odd view of ethics.

 

I'm all for fighting the good fight even if it means losing money when someone is being dishonest or preying on someone weaker or whatever. But, when a low-end freelancer does low-end work because you chose to shop at the Dollar Store instead of Nordstrom (or even Target), it hardly seems fair to decide to pull out the big guns and go all out fighting someone who made an investment in trying to deliver for you.

 

I kind of want to give the guy $75 just because your attitude is giving me such a dismal view of humanity. You obviously feel like the victim, but if you can afford $291 just to crush a guy who needs $75 desperately enough to do a job that should have cost several times that and you think the right answer is to take food off his table to prove a point...well, I think we just don't have enough common ground to have a productive conversation.

 

I'm fascinated as hell to read what kind of "self help" advice you have to offer, though. Something along the lines of Machiavelli, perhaps?

bobafett999
Community Member

I am sure some expert will give you advice on your options.

 

But, let me tell you some facts.

1. You get what you pay for.  Lowest rate = Lowest quality.

2. Buying stuff from Upwork is not like sticking 50 cents in a soda machine and expect the machine to deliver you a can of coke.

3. Instead buying stuff from Upwork is like (I believe Tom Hanks said it in one of his movies) buying a box of chocolate.  You never know what you will get.

 

Kevin I am editing this after I saw Tiffany's advice.  Take it. 

 

$75 in over all scheme of things is not a huge amount. May be you can spin it your way in your self-help book.  Forgive snd forget.

What would you do in this case, or how have such kind of problems handled?

 

At this point of the discussion, you have probably spend more $ in discussing this "problem of you own making" than you spent on the **Edited for Community Guidelines**  freelancer. 

 

**Edited for Community Guidelines** --- move on mate.

I understand mate. So I give the guy my money then I go and invest again double the amount, and he walks away for practically sketching. The work was just sketches and I kept trying to get my vision across to him before the real work starts. I cancelled it at sketches. If you were in my position would you pay for some very bad sketches?

Well, your story has changed somewhat. If it was only the sketching stage, I'd probably offer to pay half. 

 

I can't really say what I would do "in your position," though, because I can't quite work out what that position is. I'm unable to put myself in the shoes of someone who is charging $15 to design a book cover and then paying someone else $75 to design a book cover.

I understand completely. If you check out again the 15$ are from return clients who gave me work when i started out. Although most are easy but very well done designs You can go through my reviews and check for any anomalies that you think may lead tto questioning my character. It is my way of saying thank you those who gave me the chance when I was new on the platform. They deliver a lot of work too so it is an agreement. The problem here is quality, and bearing in mind my extensive knowledge about design, I found out that he was just polishing his bad work with well crafted apologies to make changes. Changes which were not in anyway making the sketches look different. 

My willingness to go to arbitration is because he knows the work was bad and he misrepresented his ability to carry out the project. Yet you all side with him that I should pay just because he sent me a jpeg file with a bunch of text around it.

Sitting at my desk, looking at these terrible sketches that were supposed to be a book cover delivered 2 weeks ago, you cannot blame me for feeling hurt and burnt. 

$291 looks like a fair price for me to know and understand why I have to pay for the kind of work I received. If it goes his way after that then I accept the outcome, if not then I will agree and move on with my existence!

 

r2streu
Community Member

Okay, so if I understand correclty what you're saying, the freelancer sent you preliminary sketches for the work to be done. As you say yourself, this is the "ideas" stage more or less, before the real work is done. 

 

That being the case, you of course do NOT owe for a completed job, as he never completed the job. However, he DID do some work on the job before you fired him. I would pay out a portion for the work he did -- not for the quality, but for the time he put into it -- and explain the full payout was for the FINISHED PRODUCT, which he did not, and will not (because you're cancelling the project) provide. I'd say if a finished cover is worth $75 (no judgement here, but I'll echo that you get what you pay for), preliminary sketches are worth, say, $20?

 

Regardless of how you handle THIS situation, in the future, allow me to offer this advice:
If you're planning on having the freelancer turn in sketches before the real work starts, create a milestone for him or her to do so. It's against Upwork policy to demand free work. Make it 20 bucks or so. After that, you can choose to continue working with the client, or stop the work there, no harm done -- and THEY don't have anything to dispute, because you've effectively managed expectations up front.

 

Create a SECOND milestone for the finished product. 

kevngash
Community Member

Thank you Randy. Now this is advice people!!! 

tlsanders
Community Member

So, wait.

 

I just looked at your profile, and I'm super-confused.

 

You're selling book cover design services, so were you farming out this job? It seems unlikely that you are a book cover designer who just happened to write a book and decided to have a stranger on Upwork do your book cover design for you.

 

No surprise you're all up in arms, if you farmed out work and didn't get a product you can sell to the client. But, that's the risk you take when you lowball. 

 

Interesting that you're paying him $75, though, when it looks like you're doing a bunch of cover designs yourself for $15.

 

Curiouser and curiouser.

 

One thing to factor into the arbitration question...Upwork frowns on undisclosed subcontracting.

So you went from zero to judgmental all at once?  Ethics is telling someone I cannot deliver on your vision but I can do so and so. I had even agreed to increase the fees for the work if he would promise to give better quality. He then goes and removes a circle on the cover and comes asking for more. I am not crushing anyone here, I am just totally pissed off that you can allow such kind of malicious contracts from clients. I have been scammed a coupke of times and I am totally tired of it. Take a look at the covers which have no color no art direction etc. You claim 75$ is little, go to the upwork cover design job feed tell me how many covers even come close to 50$. That is the criteria I used in giving the work?

I don't claim it's little, I know it. I don't need to survey Upwork contracts to know how much it costs to get a quality book cover--I own a small publishing company. The least I've ever paid for a book cover was $250, and that was a very quick job by a long-time friend who cut me a significant break because the book was a fundraiser for charity.

 

All that said...you haven't answered the really important question here. Why are you designing book covers yourself for $15 and paying someone else $75 to do it?

I am not at all here to exchange words, I just need to understand  why very bad work should be compensated. Then what stops me from making a living through delivering bad work and following through with a dispute knowing you will just tell the client to pay and move on because it is cheaper than arbitration? 

 

 

I really do not understand your criteria but I will just follow up with upwork support

Regards 

Kevin N.

 

 

lolz...farming out the $75 job in progress?

Hello. What do you mean by farming out, I really don't understand. Plus I do not have any open contracts or do you mean the one I have with the freelancer. I am really trying here to not be rude but jumping to conclusions is quite literally a very extravagant position for anyone trying to seek help here. 

I am seeking guidance and all I am getting a people bombarding me with baseless accusations. I believe you can access the so called contract examine it with proper keeness then come and "LOLZ" again. 

I am just a bloody pissed client who got a very bad product, can you not just see that!!!! 

 

 

 

Hi Kevin,

You can send me the details for the freelancer you would like to report via PM.
Or if you also want to file a dispute you can open a ticket with our customer support and attach all of the evidence there, our team will also review the freelancer.
If you need further help but private details are involved send me a PM(Click on my name) and I will assist you further.

~ Goran
Upwork

 Thank you mate. 


@Kevin N wrote:

 

I am just a bloody pissed client who got a very bad product, can you not just see that!!!! 

 

 

 


 Not really. I'm having a hard time seeing you as a "client," since you are apparently attempting to purchase the very same service that you purport to provide, and you've offered no explanation as to why a prolific book cover designer needs to hire a book cover designer and work extensively with him to "convey his vision" on a $75 project that your profile suggests you could easily have completed yourself.

Tiffany:  After going through this thread as well as many other threads, let me draw a picture and you tell me if that is a plausible scenerio to screw freelancers.

 

1. A farmer bids on a job they can't do. But somehow they win the bid. The farmer has perfected the art of how the fixed price contracts work.

2. They farm out the job as a fixed price for an amount that is $100-$150 range.

3. Once they get the work they cry foul and use every conceivable reason not to pay or have no intention of compromise.

4. The dispute resolution team's final step 'Go to Arbitration' for $300.

5. The farmers would go knowing perfectly well that the freelancer is not going to plonkout $300 for a $100 job.

6. By default they win.  They get back their $300 + their escrow + the freelancer's work.

7. The farmer sells that work to the original client.

 

Isn't there a field or something in their profile they would alert Upwork that this farmer has a tendency to dispute every subcontracted work?  Also is it allowed to hire subcontractors for the job you get on Upwork?

kat303
Community Member

It just doesn't make any sense at all. That you are a graphic designer, and all the work you've done, the jobs you've completed are all designing book covers. Your portfolio also showcases your work which is nothing but book covers.

 

To take a step away from your original post, Perhaps you can explain me why a book cover designer would hire another designer to create a book cover for them. 

You said the freelancer didn't meet your design conception. If you have a conception/idea for a book cover design, and you are a book cover designer, why wouldn't you design this book cover youself???

 

And why, if you charge only $15 on the majority of the book cover design work you've done as a freelancer, why would you pay another freelancer $75? 

 

You have the skills and talent, you have the conception/idea of what you want, Hell, do it yourself and you wouldn't have to pay anyone anything.

As a client, my time is valuable.

 

If a freelancer does poor quality work, I pay the freelancer and discard the work.

 

The freelancer is not paying me ANYTHING. If the freelancer was paying for my valuable time, then maybe the freelancer would deserve my time spent thinking about their shoddy work, evaluating it, explaining why it was bad, how they could improve, etc.

 

But the freelancer doesn't deserve any of that.

 

As a client, I am not going to elevate a freelancer's shoddy, unworthy work beyond its deserved status by thinking about it further or by trying to ensure that the freelancer "gets what he deserves."

He finally contacted me and I gave him the $20 option. Thank you Preston you gave the best advice. Kept it to the point and you explained it in the best way possible.

kevngash
Community Member

Hi Cathy. 

I also do proofreading, does it mean if I have a book Idea then I have to do it myself just because I proofread books?

Then what is the point of a client portal accessible to freelancers on this platform?

Also The topic was about the quality and someone requesting full payment for sketches and very bad sketches at that. How can you help me on that because you totally avoided the topic.

Regards.

 

Oh. You are one of those "unlimited revisions" and "100% money back guarantee" freelancers. Always wondered why someone would offer that.

 

This one is funny as well: "I'll purchase one of these Premium Stock photos for $5, or 3 Premium Stock Photos for $15 (for an exceptionally, unique design)." So what would the price for 2 be? 

________________________
Freelancing is a gamble - To win you need skill, luck and a strategy


@Eve L wrote:

This one is funny as well: "I'll purchase one of these Premium Stock photos for $5, or 3 Premium Stock Photos for $15 (for an exceptionally, unique design)." So what would the price for 2 be? 


 $9.99?

 

Eve you wrote,"Freelancing is a gamble - To win you need skill, luck and a strategy"

 

Nope:  Freelancing is gambling on slot machine - most of the time you will lose (at least that is true for me on Upwork as well as casinos).


@Prashant P wrote:

Nope:  Freelancing is gambling on slot machine - most of the time you will lose (at least that is true for me on Upwork as well as casinos).


 Prashant, I really could not disagree more. I wonder if it is an attitude issue.

I see every new client as an opportunity to shine and a potential new long term business partner. I usually adore my clients and (mostly 😉 ) they adore me.

You seem to see clients as adversaries and as your enemies, only out to get you..

Clients are real flesh and blood human beings, just like you and me. I personally fiind that connecting with them on that level makes all the difference.

 

That said, a book cover for $ 75?

 

I don't design for a living, playing with design is purely a hobby. I once created a cover just for fun and to show an existing client my idea for her cover. She hired me to finish it and paid me $ 300.

For $ 75, if the OP got anything beyond mere scribbles, it was adequate.

 

 


@Petra R wrote:

@Prashant P wrote:

 


 Prashant, I really could not disagree more. I wonder if it is an attitude issue.

I see every new client as an opportunity to shine and a potential new long term business partner. I usually adore my clients and (mostly 😉 ) they adore me.

You seem to see clients as adversaries and as your enemies, only out to get you..

Clients are real flesh and blood human beings, just like you and me. I personally fiind that connecting with them on that level makes all the difference.

 

I don't design for a living, playing with design is purely a hobby.


Yes Petra.  It may be an attitude. But when you are in business as a hobby, you can afford to have an attitude.  I mentioned in other thread.  I do not have the skill set to connect - my wife does. 

 

I am very happy for you though.

 

I saw your design scribble in your video and was impressed. 

 

But it is very true about me and casino.  I love going to casino 3-4 times a year and I have NEVER won.  Best I have done is break even, but I also do not lose much either.


@Prashant P wrote:

Yes Petra.  It may be an attitude. But when you are in business as a hobby, you can afford to have an attitude. 

 


Funny, I would say that when you're serious about business you cannot afford a negative attitude, because it impedes your chances of success.

 

Like many, you seem to have such a negative approach of life, or at least of the business part of life. This is a strong attractor for failure. And if you think that business is merely a casino game, it means that you don't understand it a bit. Unlike casino, in business the 20/80 rule applies. A mere 20% of players, always the same ones, are winning 80% of the jobs. And they don't count on luck nor see each client as an enemy.

-----------
"Where darkness shines like dazzling light"   —William Ashbless


@Rene K wrote:

Like many, you seem to have such a negative approach of life, or at least of the business part of life. This is a strong attractor for failure. And if you think that business is merely a casino game, it means that you don't understand it a bit. Unlike casino, in business the 20/80 rule applies. A mere 20% of players, always the same ones, are winning 80% of the jobs. And they don't count on luck nor see each client as an enemy.


 Not really Rene.  I am a data driven person.  I don't know what you do or what your hit rate on Upwork is, but let me tell you the space I operate.  First of all it is a very crowded space - crowded by freelancers and infested by cheapo clients - most of them I suspect are farmers.  90% of the postings I see are getting a website for $50-$100-$125 (This is the posting about an hour ago "

**Edited for Community Guidelines** for $50 for an intermediate level.

Even if I get those gigs I do not want to work on them.  Copy, pasting images and text is not what I am looking for in my hobby.  I am looking for people who are willing to pay for elegance.  On Upwork it has been my experience that those people do not exist or are rare. Most clients on Upwork I see are "ordering 500 word blog post" for $10.  Insert this script or that for $15.  **Edited for Community Guidelines** see some things on other websites and want it recreated on theirs. Create 50 web landing pages for a total price of $150.

 

So Rene tell me what would excite you with the above picture. 


@Prashant P wrote:

@Rene K wrote:

Like many, you seem to have such a negative approach of life, or at least of the business part of life. This is a strong attractor for failure. And if you think that business is merely a casino game, it means that you don't understand it a bit. Unlike casino, in business the 20/80 rule applies. A mere 20% of players, always the same ones, are winning 80% of the jobs. And they don't count on luck nor see each client as an enemy.


 Not really Rene.  I am a data driven person.  I don't know what you do or what your hit rate on Upwork is, but let me tell you the space I operate.  First of all it is a very crowded space - crowded by freelancers and infested by cheapo clients - most of them I suspect are farmers.  90% of the postings I see are getting a website for $50-$100-$125 (This is the posting about an hour ago "

Create a weebly blog website in three days!! for $50 for an intermediate level.

Even if I get those gigs I do not want to work on them.  Copy, pasting images and text is not what I am looking for in my hobby.  I am looking for people who are willing to pay for elegance.  On Upwork it has been my experience that those people do not exist or are rare. Most clients on Upwork I see are "ordering 500 word blog post" for $10.  Insert this script or that for $15.  The idiots see some things on other websites and want it recreated on theirs. Create 50 web landing pages for a total price of $150.

 

So Rene tell me what would excite you with the above picture. 


 Why do you remain in the space you hate so much? Why don't you just move on to something else? 



@Prashant P wrote:


 Not really Rene.  I am a data driven person.  I don't know what you do or what your hit rate on Upwork is, but let me tell you the space I operate.  First of all it is a very crowded space - crowded by freelancers and infested by cheapo clients - most of them I suspect are farmers.  90% of the postings I see are getting a website for $50-$100-$125

 

Almost everyone in the forums who is unhappy with Upwork has made a similar statement at some point, regardless or the field/niche in which they offer services. If in fact 10% of the jobs you see posted in your arena are worth considering, then you are probably in the best possible area on Upwork. I definitely don't see one decent job in ten. I doubt that I see one decent job in 20.

 

The thing is, it doesn't matter at all. If I see 10 good jobs in a month and 2,768 bad ones, and I bid on the 10 good ones and get hired on three of them, that's more than enough. It makes no difference to me whether 1 in 2 or 1 in 100 or 1 in 786,000 is a good job. The good ones are all that matters.


@Tiffany S wrote:


@Prashant P wrote:


 Not really Rene.  I am a data driven person.  I don't know what you do or what your hit rate on Upwork is, but let me tell you the space I operate.  First of all it is a very crowded space - crowded by freelancers and infested by cheapo clients - most of them I suspect are farmers.  90% of the postings I see are getting a website for $50-$100-$125

 

Almost everyone in the forums who is unhappy with Upwork has made a similar statement at some point, regardless or the field/niche in which they offer services. If in fact 10% of the jobs you see posted in your arena are worth considering, then you are probably in the best possible area on Upwork. I definitely don't see one decent job in ten. I doubt that I see one decent job in 20.

 

The thing is, it doesn't matter at all. If I see 10 good jobs in a month and 2,768 bad ones, and I bid on the 10 good ones and get hired on three of them, that's more than enough. It makes no difference to me whether 1 in 2 or 1 in 100 or 1 in 786,000 is a good job. The good ones are all that matters.


 So true. I've only applied to 5 jobs the last 90 days, and I got 4 of them. All other jobs and invites I just ignore/decline and wait for something better to come along.

 

Then again some freelancers don't have that luxury. I, and probably you Tiffany, can do this as we have enough work to keep us busy anyway. We don't need to take on all kinds of work to be able to pay our bills and put food on the table. So I understand why some freelancers can't be that picky, but getting to a place where we get to be that picky isn't easy. It takes a lot of work and dedication, at least it did for me. 

 

So then I'm back to the strategy part of freelancing. You have to set a goal and have a plan for how to get there. Just doing random stuff and hope for the best is usually not the best strategy.

________________________
Freelancing is a gamble - To win you need skill, luck and a strategy


@Rene K wrote:

@Prashant P wrote:

Yes Petra.  It may be an attitude. But when you are in business as a hobby, you can afford to have an attitude. 

 


Funny, I would say that when you're serious about business you cannot afford a negative attitude, because it impedes your chances of success.

 

Like many, you seem to have such a negative approach of life, or at least of the business part of life. This is a strong attractor for failure. And if you think that business is merely a casino game, it means that you don't understand it a bit. Unlike casino, in business the 20/80 rule applies. A mere 20% of players, always the same ones, are winning 80% of the jobs. And they don't count on luck nor see each client as an enemy.


 When it comes to poker there is in fact just 5% of the players that doesn't lose in the long run. Only about 1% actually walk away with a win. And this is like freelancing, because this is not just a game about luck, but also about skill. Even with skills you can get into a bad run, where it just doesn't work out even if the odds are in your favour. So if you have the skills you just have to push through these rough patches, and you'll come out on top if you just hang in there. Just as in freelancing.

________________________
Freelancing is a gamble - To win you need skill, luck and a strategy


Prashant P wrote: 

But it is very true about me and casino.  I love going to casino 3-4 times a year and I have NEVER won.  Best I have done is break even, but I also do not lose much either.


 Casino stuff is what I do, and I'm pretty sure the statement above is not true. You might think it is, but in reality it's not.

 

In fact most players win quite a lot, the problem is that they gamble away their winnings in persuit of an even bigger win. The clue to gambling on slots, table games or whatever is to know when to walk away. 

 

I could give you some strategies for this, but then you'll have to hire me at my hourly rate. But I'll give you one advice for free. Stop playing at casinos, and rather write about casinos. For me that is both my stratey and my skill, and the only way I'm guaranteed a win every time. 🙂

________________________
Freelancing is a gamble - To win you need skill, luck and a strategy


@Eve L wrote:



 Casino stuff is what I do, and I'm pretty sure the statement above is not true. You might think it is, but in reality it's not.

 

In fact most players win quite a lot, the problem is that they gamble away their winnings in persuit of an even bigger win. The clue to gambling on slots, table games or whatever is to know when to walk away. 

 

I could give you some strategies for this, but then you'll have to hire me at my hourly rate. But I'll give you one advice for free. Stop playing at casinos, and rather write about casinos. For me that is both my stratey and my skill, and the only way I'm guaranteed a win every time. 🙂


@ @Eve:  Thanks a lot for your offer to teach me, but I can't afford your rate.

 

Yes what you say about winning on slot machine has some truth to it.  A good friend of mine is a Slot Director in a casino, and he says the same thing (he doesn't gamble at all).  According to him Time is their best friend.  More time I spend on machines is a good for him.  They give away free rooms and other stuff just for that purpose.  I might have weird math, but I go to casinos to have good time.  I go to be entertained, and I believe entertainment costs money.  For me the rooms are free, food is free, drinks could be free but I don't drink and once in a while they give away free stuff that is semi useful.

 

You wrote,"The clue to gambling on slots, table games or whatever is to know when to walk away.:

 

Well that only works if you live short distance away.  During my visits I have met few people who play on very high volatality machines at max bet.  They just keep feeding the machines and when and if they hit, they just walk away (or walk away when they are broke).  BTW I love Aristrocat machines.

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