Question for graphic designers. I am a client.

[759fb2a3]

I am looking for a graphic designer to do a cover for a notebook/journal I intend to sell. I do not want to get in trouble at a later time and get sued for copyright issues. How do I make sure that the graphic designer I hire uses his/her own work and he/she is not using graphics from others (copyright material)?

I do appreciate your answer

Thank you

[petra_r]

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Layla M wrote:

How do I make sure that the graphic designer I hire uses his/her own work and he/she is not using graphics from others (copyright material)?

---

• Hire someone with a substantial and successful history on Upwork
• Do not try to hire cheap
• Check samples and portfolio items on reverse picture searches
• Pay fair market rates
• To help to be safe, hire on an hourly contract so you can actually SEE the work being done via the screenshots.
• Respect that you get what you pay for

[759fb2a3]

I did not hire cheap. I don't think $50-$130/h is cheap. However, not even
one graphic designer I talk to had a contract to sign for transfer of
intellectual property or a way to prove his/her work is original, never
been given to someone else before me and will never be given to others
after it is given to me. That is a huge legal issue and I can get sued in
the future for copyright issues.

[prestonhunter]

Layla:

Keep in mind that there are graphic designers who would never consider copying somebody else's work. It's not in their DNA. Everything they create for you will be original.

There are other freelancers who ONLY copy other work and provide that to freelancers. That is the only way they know how to work.

You can't ask the second type of freelancer to provide you with original work. They don't know how. It isn't something that they offer.

And you can't ask the first type of designer to copy somebody else's work.

So hiring the right type of freelancer is key.

[759fb2a3]

What you say is common sense and I know all the things you mentioned. Some people are honest, some are dishonest, even a child knows that. Unless we've lived under a rock until now, we all know what you said. The question is, how can I find the "right type of freelancer" as you call him/her. I have already talked to over 30 people and nobody has an intellectual property transfer contract to offer and some others argue with me that I do not need a contract when the main business we do is trasfer of property, copyright, etc. This implies huge legal matters and huge problems in the future.

[g_vasilevski]

Hi Layla,

You can also check out our Terms of Service - Section 6 INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS under the agreement named the Optional Service Contract Terms.
I general, Upon Freelancer’s receipt of full payment from Client, the Work Product (except for any Background Technology), including without limitation all Intellectual Property Rights in the Work Product (except for any Background Technology), will be the sole and exclusive property of Client.

 For more details about this please refer to Section 6.4 OWNERSHIP OF WORK PRODUCT AND INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY. Thank you.

[759fb2a3]

Thank you so much, your answer does answer my question. I wish all the freelancers who seem to have worked for quite some time on Upwork knew about these Terms of Service. I might actually give up trying to find a freelancer on Upwork because it is exhausting trying to find someone who knows his rights and my rights as a client and who is willing to sign a contract at the end of the job. To my experience so far, freelancers who find out I want to sign a contract with them either immediatelly tell me they became busy working on another project or they say they have never heard about such things, or fight me hard that such contract is not needed and they give me their word that the work is theirs, not plagiarized and they will never use it again for someone else. I'll give it a few more days and if I can't find anybody, I will try somewhere else.

[prestonhunter]

Layla, as a client, I have hired dozens of artists on Upwork. They have provided me with around 100 original pieces of artwork.

These were created according to my briefs/requirements. They are all original without copyright problems. I own the copyright outright and can do whatever I want with the work. I face no legal issues or complications.

This is all very simple.

I actually don't spend any time trying to figure out which freelance artists are honest or not. I look at artists' portfolios and make decisions based on what I think of their past work and style. When I have commissioned original artwork, I have requirements that are so original and specific that there is no way for an artist to simply copy the work from somewhere else. If the original artwork you intend to commission is not distinctive in terms of its components and requirements, then perhaps you face issues that I have not faced.

I believe you are far over-estimating the complexity of hiring artists on Upwork.

[759fb2a3]

Thank you for your answer, however I have a feeling that you are not aware that any of those freelancers who worked for you and "provided you with around 100 original pieces of artwork [...] original without any copyright problems" could have borrowed images, text, or anything else from certain sources and compile some work for you that looks original but used elements that are copyrighted. They could have also used pirated software. Whomever owns the rights for all of the above can sue you at any time and he/she wins, unless you have proof you were not aware of the infringement. In your defense, you can use a contract signed by the freelancer in which the freelancer assumes full responsability for the work, otherwise the liability is all on you. In a Court of law, if you try to defend yourself claiming that the freelancer's gave you his/her word that he did not plagiarize or used already copyrighted materials will not stand. You really need to talk to a copyright and intellectual property attorney to further explain you what I am talking about. 

[prestonhunter]

Don't worry so much.

[759fb2a3]

Any responsible business person needs contracts for backup. It's not about "not worrying," it's about legal protection. I am intrigued I have to even explain it. 

[prestonhunter]

You are welcome to study the commissioned artwork I have posted in the Forum. You would agree that there are no copyright concerns.

If you hire artists the way I do, you won't need to worry about the legal issues you say you are concerned about.

After having hired over 200 different freelancers on Upwork in a wide range of categories, my experience has been overwhelmingly positive when it comes to hiring artists. There are a few I would not re-hire. But most I would recommend enthusiastically.

I pay artists their posted hourly rates or what they ask for fixed-price commissions. To be brutally honest: the costs tend to be shockingly low.

[759fb2a3]

Can you explain to me and to every other client reading this, how do you protect yourself from a lawsuit, in case someone takes you to Court claiming that you used his/her copyrighted materials and how you rest assured there will be no copyright concerns without signing a contract with the freelancer? Also, can you please explain how, in absence of a contract how can you make sure the freelancer will not use YOUR work or part of it for another client, and in the future, if that person copyrights that work, will sue YOU for using it, even if you were the first user of the work (however you did not copyrighted it)? Please read above the answer provided by Moderator Goran V (thank you one more time Goran!), he provided a link to the Terms of Service - Section 6 INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS under the agreement named the Optional Service Contract Terms. By continuing to engage in this conversation in the way you do, you practically disagree with Upwork's Terms of Service and in the same time encourage me to disagree with them. To me, it already feels like you're trolling...

[prestonhunter]

I am a real client, with substantially more experience commissioning artwork on Upwork than most Forum participants. That is one of the main ways that I use the platform as a client. I am certainly not trolling. I thought that is what you were doing... that you want to make some kind of point. Or explore certain arguments or criticize the platform or something.

I am not sure why you would say I am in disagreement with Upwork about something.

I don't know why you think that I disagree with Upwork's default contract language. That is the only contact in place when I commission artwork from Upwork freelancers.

[759fb2a3]

Preston,

Do not turn this conversation into a personal attack now, please stick to the topic I posted. My posted topic is about a legal matter and me trying to figure out how protect myself against lawsuits. My question and the useful answers I will receive (see moderator Goran V's answer) can help other clients, too. Your answers are all about me exagerating about my fear of being sued, now you came up with the absurd comment that I am criticizing the platform (while I actually share what happened to me in the last few days). Your answer does not help me at all, and it won't help any other client who wants to protect himself/herself from a potential lawsuit that might arise from disagreements over copyright ownership. Please stop answering me if it's out of topic, it doesn't help at all. I know I asked you a few questions in my last messages, if you have an aswer to those, please do, but if you just want to argue endesly, please stop.

[759fb2a3]

Preston,

Regarding your answer in which you mention that "I pay artists their posted hourly rates or what they ask for fixed-price commissions. To be brutally honest: the costs tend to be shockingly low." ... Hmmm... I've been quoted $40-$50 to $150 per hour. That is not at all low. That is actually pretty expensive at it matches any other real shop in my town. That shop pays rent, salaries, and has expenses associated with maintaing a real business, so it is expected to have higher fees. Based on these "shockingingly low" prices as you call them, a logo can end up costing up to $450-$500, which is pretty high. If I need a cover for a presentation file, a logo, and a visit card, all that can cost me up to $2000 based on the quotes I received. That is not cheap at all and the high price comes with no contract to protect me for future lawsuits. 

[prestonhunter]

re: "I've been quoted $40-$50 to $150 per hour."

Not all artists charge the same rate.

I have hired artists in the United States, England, continental Europe, South America, Africa, and Asia. Rates vary widely.

For example, using Upwork, I paid an artist in China (Chunlin Zhao) $166 for the comic book cover below. I thought I got a great deal.

And check out this work by Upwork artist Easter Joyce Diaz. Her rate is $10/hour. (That means she earns about twice the typical hourly pay that a hospital staff doctor earns in her country.) The total cost was $68.33:

The cost for this work by Raheela Saleem (for a potluck dinner invitation) was $36.25:

This is some phenomenal work as far as I'm concerned. I have obtained a ton of great work from Upwork artists. I have also hired local artists from my community. But I mostly hire through Upwork because it is a more reliable source. Even if the rates are the same, I have had a far better experience with dealines and turnaround time when hiring through Upwork.

I'm not here to tell anybody they shouldn't pay artists well.

But I don't feel guilty when I post a job and an artist applies to the job and I pay her using her hourly rate.

[759fb2a3]

Preston,

Wow, that is indeed high quality work and I do thank you for sharing it with me. I am happy you changed your demeanor and we eventually start a contructive conversation. I will actually contact the freelancer you mentioned. I wish we did this from the very beginning. I am not looking for a freelancer who charges low, I am looking for someone to do my job well and to establish a long term relationship, and I do not even have pressing deadlines. I have a question for you, please. How can I see all these jobs and some of the freelancers you worked with? My experience so far is terrible. I have talked to so many freelancers who are either terrible on the manners side, or could not do the job (no skill). I created an account on Upwork last week on Saturday/Sunday and I have been contacting freelancers ever since, that's what I have been doing for the last 3 days, about 8 hours a day! and... no success at all. Today I started to become a bit worried that it is a waste of time trying to find someone on this website if I continue in the same direction. 

[prestonhunter · Accepted solution]

re: "I will actually contact the freelancer you mentioned. "

Three different pieces of artwork.

Three different artists.

I'll add the names of the other artists to the post. If those names get censored by moderators, then I can provide them privately. But I hope that Upwork won't censor the names. These are all created by Upwork freelancers whose profiles were active public when I hired them.

I don't think any client needs to search out these specific artists. I can't guarantee that any of them are available right now. I only posted artwork to show some of the TYPICAL work that I have obtained from Upwork artists.

I don't use any secret techniques when looking for freelancers on Upwork. I typically post jobs publicly and then spend up to around 5 minutes doing a search and sending a few direct invites.

re: "How can I see all these jobs and some of the freelancers you worked with?"

I don't think I should post everything here in the thread, lest I turn it into an art gallery instead of a Forum thread.

But you can look at some other artwork here, all by Upwork freelancers:

[Okay... Moderators aren't going to let me post some outside links. I can send a private message with some links to more artwork by Upwork freelancers. But you can also just use Upwork's own search and browse tools and look at as many artist portfolios as you want to.]

Regarding the image galleries I privately sent you links for: Some of these are pieces that I love. Some I like a lot. Some of them I didn't care for and I don't use widely. But I sent you some galleries that show ALL of the commissions for that particular project. Including projects in which all of the artists received the same instructions, and all were paid using hourly contracts.

Art like this is subjective and I like hiring really talented artists whose results can be somewhat unpredictable. I provide briefs that provide the necessary details, but I don't want them to be TOO detailed.

By hiring MULTIPLE artists to do the same task, I end up with many choices. I don't need to use any pieces that I don't want to use.

[abinadab-agbo]

---

Layla M wrote:

Preston,

Regarding your answer in which you mention that "I pay artists their posted hourly rates or what they ask for fixed-price commissions. To be brutally honest: the costs tend to be shockingly low." ... Hmmm... I've been quoted $40-$50 to $150 per hour. That is not at all low. That is actually pretty expensive at it matches any other real shop in my town. That shop pays rent, salaries, and has expenses associated with maintaing a real business, so it is expected to have higher fees. Based on these "shockingingly low" prices as you call them, a logo can end up costing up to $450-$500, which is pretty high. If I need a cover for a presentation file, a logo, and a visit card, all that can cost me up to $2000 based on the quotes I received. That is not cheap at all and the high price comes with no contract to protect me for future lawsuits. 

---

Obviously freelancers don't pay rent, don't eat, and don't have any other expenses associated with maintaining a real business. Can these folks even be considered real businesses lol.

Anyway, I observe that the issue is not that the freelancers refused to sign a custom IP agreement and/or non-compete contract when you offered one.

You don't have a contract ready, and these freelancers don't normally work with custom contracts. Indeed, they appear to have found success working with clients using Upwork's default terms, to the mutual satisfaction of both parties.

As the one who needs such a contract, you should have one prepared and offer that they sign it.

If they then refuse to sign your contract, we can then have a discussion as to why.

Upwork's ToS clearly acknowledge the freedom of contract between client and freelancer and even encourages them to sign a custom one if they see it fit.

[759fb2a3]

Abinadab,

That was a terrible answer and you do nothing else but add to my unpleasant experience I've had so far on Upwork. Instead of looking forward to opening my notifications when someone answers me, I am not wondering what other hurting or personal attack I am going to read. You start by trying to make me look bad for saying that free lancers have lower costs of maintenance compared to a business that pays rent, salaries, shop costs, etc. It is a well known FACT that freelancers DO have lower costs if compared to a business that has a physical location. You had to start with a personal attack like I have already started to get used in this forum... This attack was not needed as long as I have already mentioned that I was willing to pay $150/h for the job I posted, which is actually how much I would be charged at a physical location.

Regarding the other part of your answer, the one that mentions that clients and freelancers abide the Upwork terms and Conditions. Please read them because it's either obvious you haven't or you do not have the legal background to understand what they mean. Those are guidelines and if one day someone sues me for copyright infringement, I cannot hold Upwork responsible for the infringement. The one responsible is the freelancer.

Regarding the other part of your answer, it's obvious you didn't even bother to read the answers I provided other members. Instead you hurried to assume I did not do a particular thing which I have already mentioned that I did. You said "As the one who needs such a contract, you should have one prepared and offer that they sign it. If they then refuse to sign your contract, we can then have a discussion as to why." If you at least tried to bother read my other answers, you would have found out that I have already said that when I mentioned a contract, the freelancer either ridiculed me, said he unexpectedly became busy and said he could not do my job, or tried to explain me that there is no such need for a contract and he can give me his word that the work is his and there will be no issue in the future.

Please... do not answer me back again if all you want is to argue and insult me. I do not need another attack from you. If you have something contructive to say, that will help me, as well as other clients reading this conversation, go ahead. If you just want to attack me and argue, please don't. It does not help me at all.

[prestonhunter]

re: "a logo can end up costing up to $450-$500"

A logo can legitimately cost a lot more than $450 to $500.

A logo might be something that a company will invest $10,000 to $20,000 or more to create.

But you can also hire freelancers who will provide a logo for less than $100.

Or one can use logo-making software, or a free logo-making tool. Many are available.

It depends on who you hire and what you are expecting to get out of the deal.

For many purposes, a free logo will certainly suffice, and may better fit some people's budgets.

A company can reasonbly plan to pay more for a logo, which will be a core part of their corporate identity, than they might pay for a single cartoon or illustration.

You originally mentioned a book cover, so that was my first example.

If you want to discuss logos, there is a whole slew of other considerations. Both with regards to cost and copyright issues. It can be a topic in and of itself, and is in fact the topic of dozens of already-available threads here in the Community Forum.

[759fb2a3]

Preston,

Come on... no small/medium business will ever pay $10,000-$20,000 for a logo. I am sure that not even YOU would pay that amount so ... 🙂 Come on 🙂  Paying so much for a logo when one's annual revenue is even pretty good, let's say $100k might even trigger an audit from the IRS because it's a huge red flag under a company's expenses.

I can guarantee you that not even a doctor's office will be willing to pay that money for a logo. Neither would the restaurant you or I go to... and neither would any small/medium business in yout city/town.

Moreover, a huge corporation that might be willing to pay $10,000-$20,000 for a logo will not search for a freelancer on Upwork 🙂

So, let's come back to reality and the reality is that my attorney paid $250 to make his logo and his letter at a local print shop in town and it was a very high quality job.

I do not want to discuss copyright issue in general, I know the law well on that side. All I want to discuss here is how to find freelancers on Upwork who are aware of them, too and how to find those who are willing to sign a contract with me, as I am under no circumstance going to share my own copyrighted work, ideas, and business plans without protecting myself.

[BojanS]

Hi Layla,

I see Goran has already shared the information about the Optional Service Contract Terms and other Community members shared how they use them as well as their experience vetting and hiring freelancers on Upwork. While Upwork isn't a party to client-freelancer relationship and we cannot advise on any additional terms you may want to discuss and agree upon with your freelancers, we definitely want you to have a good experience hiring on Upwork. So I've asked one of our team members to reach out to you directly and address any further questions or concerns you may have about hiring on Upwork. There are a lot of talented graphic designers on Upwork who create brilliant original work and I hope you'll be able to find a great candidate for your project.

[759fb2a3]

Bojan,

Thank you so much for your answer. It really helps. I really want to find a freelancer or may be more than one person, to work with and establish a long term relationship. Based on my current experience on Upwork, I just don't know how that can be possible. I opened an account on Upwork on Saturday (or Sunday, not sure as I have been working on this almost 24/7, day and night) and for the last 3 days all I did was to answer offers or to contact freelancers on my own. None of them had any clue about copyright or intellectual property and when asked, they could only give me their word that their work is original and not plagiarized, or not previously used for another client. To me, as I intend to use the graphics on products that I am going to commercialize, copyright ownership of all the graphics that I will use is a must in order to protect myself from any copyrig lawsuits I might face in the future. Some of the freelancers I talked to ridiculed me when I explained them that this is the way things are done, some tried to convinced me I should not worry, some had no clue what I was talking about, probably got scared and immediatelly told me that they are busy (after they actually contacted me for the job!). I was really intrigued by all this and started to lose hope I will ever find a professional freelancer who knows his/her legal rights and obligations and knows mine, too.

[prestonhunter]

re: "no small/medium business will ever pay $10,000-$20,000 for a logo."

I doubt that a small business would pay that much for a logo.

When I said that people might pay less than $100 to more than $20,000 for a logo, I was not thinking of a particular size of company. CitiBank was willing to pay a lot more for a logo than my cousin's pet grooming business.

[759fb2a3]

Preston,

I read our conversation one more time and I am confused about something. Are you a freelancer or a client? How do you work?

[prestonhunter]

re: "I read our conversation one more time and I am confused about something. Are you a freelancer or a client? How do you work?"

I am primarily a freelancer on Upwork.

As a client, I have hired over 100 different freelancers.

So I have experience as a client as well.

I primarily work as a database design specialist. I definitely do NOT work as an artist on Upwork. But I hire artists here.

[759fb2a3]

Preston,

I see. Thank you so much for your answer.

[kochubei_valeria]

Hi All,

A few posts on this thread have been edited or removed. While we encourage Community members to have professional and friendly discussions, share their experience, advice, and best practices with others, we ask you to refrain from interpersonal disputes and making personal attacks. 

Thank you.

[759fb2a3]

Valeria,

Thank you

[dimensiondesign]

I don't normally respond to comments in the forum, just read, but I feel like I need to respond to this one. I am a Graphic Designer and Illustrator for over twenty five years. Full disclosure, I am a proud Upwork Freelancer. In my business career, I have written and signed many different types of contracts for my artwork, exclusive rights, time sensitive rights, NDA rights, etc. I would not have a problem signing a full copyright transer and original work contract. Like I said, I've done it many times before. Full copyrights cost extra, work for hire original artwork cost extra. That is the plain simple truth. If you pay cheap, good for you but beware.

I was very insulted that Freelancers should get paid less because they are not brick and mortar. We pay for all our work supplies including thousands of dollars for software, office supplies, computer, software, internet, water, electricity, health insurance, self-employment tax, tax preparer, accountant, etc. Some freelancers also have a brick and motar businees in additon to being a freelacer on Upwork. The problem is that clients don't understand what they want or what that is worth. By the way paying $400 for a logo is really cheap. Someone I know works for a company that just paid 1.5 million for a logo upgrade. I feel like Petra and Preston gave real solid adivce as did others.

You, as a client made a huge mistake. You wrote your job desciprtion as one sentence. (I know this because I saw the job post, you invited me and I decliened it) You only said that you needed a cover for a notebook/journal, no description, target market, style, etc. How can you expect any responses from serious freelancers without a more detailed description? You need to put more words in your description about what the job is about. What kind of illustration\design? What is the subject matter? Also, let them know in the description, that you are only looking for original artwork that you can copyright. Upwork can be a geat tool for your business, but you have to do some work yourself to find the best fit. 

[759fb2a3]

Roslen M.,

Thank you so much for your answer, it is very helpful to read a freelancer's answer to my question.... but please, don't do what someone else has already done, which is assume things about me. You said "original artwork cost extra. That is the plain simple truth. If you pay cheap, good for you but beware." I am not paying cheap, I actually mentioned that I was quoted $150/h. I think that is not "cheap." Also, if you say "original artwork cost extra" that means that you believe the cheap work done by certain artists on this website is not original, it's copied or plagiarized. There are many freelancers who ask less and do "cheap work" as you called it but that is because they are from countries where $100 is a month salary for a 9 to 5 job. "Original work" is when the artist does it without copying it from somewhere else. The artist who does the work does not have to copyright his own work, all he/she has to do is to transfer me the intellectual property rights and I will later be the one copyrighting it and trade mark it if necessary. That cost is on me, not on the freelancer. 

And you also mentioned that $400 for a logo is cheap and a company paid 1.5 million for a logo upgrade. I mean... when a company's revenue is less than 100k per year (which is the revenue of most small/medium businesses), how can that business owner pay 1.5 million for a logo? That would be impossible and practically no doctor, attorney, carpenter, auto shop, etc will ever have a vist card with a logo on it if logos would cost 1.5 million. I respect your opinion and I understand you are offended that logos cost $400 but in the real world out there, as I said, a family physician with a private practice who makes about $140k/year would never have a visit card if the logo would cost him/her 1.5 million. Please go on amazon and try to buy a T-shirt with something nice printed on. Do you think they paid 1.5 million for that graphic design? That T-shirt would cost more than 1.5 million if that were the case. You said you got my invite and declined it. You already know that I am trying to find a freelancer to do a cover for a journal. Journals sell for $10-$20 on amazon, at Kroger, Meijer, ebay, etc. Imagine what my reaction would have been if you asked me 1.5 million to do the cover of my journal. What price should I sell it for on amazon ? 1.6 million? I mean, I am of course joking but on a more serious note, no freelancer should be offended to be refused such an exorbitant quote.

The last part of your message is very helpful to me and thank you for the suggestions. I opened an account on Upwork last Saturday and it was my first job description.You mention that I should say that "I am only looking for original artwork that I can copyright." If I say that I am practically making a statement that there are artists here who do not offer/produce original artwork and they plagiarize already copyrighted materials. I am not going to do that. I will discuss that with the freelancer in private and try to sign a contract with him/her.

[prestonhunter]

re: "Full copyrights cost extra, work for hire original artwork cost extra."

Just make sure we remember that full copyright is the default on Upwork.

If a client hires a freelancer on Upwork, client receives full copyright.

Unless the client and freelancer agree to an alternative contract that states otherwise.

re: "How can you expect any responses from serious freelancers without a more detailed description?"

Roslen's comments about job descriptions needing to be detailed are something to really think about.

Something to think about when it comes to how I hire artists: I rarely talk to them. When I hire artists, I usually never even learn if they speak English. Why is that? Because I include the entire project description in the job post, or in a file I attach or link to the job post. When commissioning cartoons, I include the full written script with the job post.

Obviously my descriptions are written in English. But for all I know the artists I have hired have their English-speaking friend translate for them. I really do keep communication to a minimum and let the artists do their thing. Of course I understand that many types of work with artists require far more client-freelancer collaboration than that.

My job posts include subject matter, elements that need to be in the artwork, expected output size and use, dimensions, etc. It is not overly detailed, but it contains everything the artist needs in order to complete the work. So the freelancer who applies to my job or responds to an invite knows exactly what they will be asked to do.

After I hire the artist, I provide no further instructions. I will answer a question if necessary, but I am rarely asked questions. After they have the initial description, most any questions can be answered: "It's up to you."

[759fb2a3]

Thank you Preston 🙂