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odeskos
Community Member

Rate freelancers even when project was cancelled or refunded.

Hello,

 

I have been using oDesk/Upwork for 4 years now and I'm starting to get really sick of freelancers who abandon their projects or fail to deliver the necessary quality.

 

Right now:

 

- if a project gets cancelled a client cannot leave feedback as no money has been exchanged - even though the client's time HAS been wasted!

 

- if a freelancer delivers poor work and a client leaves them adequatte feedback (i.e. a low rating) and the freelancer choses to refund the money - the feedback disappears - again, in the end no money has been exchanged, but the client's time HAS been wasted!

 

As a client I would really appreciate it if I could somehow be able to see these "red flags" in a contractor's profile before deciding to hire them. This would greatly minimize the risk of wasting time and optimize my workflow overall.

 

It would also help discipline those freelancers who aren't serious about their work - they would be less likely to take on a  job if they aren't certain they can deliver - because even a cancelled or refunded work would result in poor ratings.

 

Let me know your thoughts.

35 REPLIES 35
david_gregory
Community Member

I think these concerns were one of the main reasons that the job satisfaction score was developed. Even though the freelancer can get rid of the public feedback by refunding, I think you can still leave private feedback which affects the freelancer's JS score.

 

This is also why you see freelancers with 5 stars but under 70% for job satisfaction.

 

 

You're wrong.  That's not how it works at all.  Once refunded and gone, it is no longer visible anywhere on the profile at all.  Though, in behind the scenes (supposedly) Upwork managers keep track of how many refunds are done by contractors and they know who is doing what so they can still suffer consequences.  However, you can't allow feedback that has been refunded to show on a profile, that would totally diminish the reason for refunding it. 

Yes, I get it that you have wasted time with a contractor who did not deliver, but if you paid NOTHING and you are still frustrated because you can't leave negative feedback, then you're taking this too personally.

A zero payment job DOES reflect poorly on a contractor and decrease his job score.

As a client, I don't expect every contractor to work out. That's why I hire multiple redundant contractors for time-sensitive jobs or I make sure I pay top dollar for proven talent.

For less time-critical jobs I monitor the work and close the contract quickly if the contractor isn't right for the job.

With all due respect that is a very wrong approach. Hiring multiple redundant contractors for time-sensitive jobs means you are wasting the contractor’s time. This has been done to them many times and they are very weary of it. I’ve dealt with many contractors that automatically suspected I’m doing this and went too far to get reassurance that it didn’t work out.

 

I don’t want my time to be wasted and don’t contractors time to be wasted either. I agree that not every contractor will workout but if the reason for not working out is that the contractor is a liar or lazy or irresponsible (which is the case for most bad experiences) then they shouldn’t be off the hook by just giving a refund!

 

So basically the few bad contractors, can do whatever they want, mess up the project, no cooperate, miss the deadline, cause a lot of damage ... and avoid any repercussions just by making a refund?

I think that is not enought and misleading!

kochubei_valeria
Community Member

Hi John,

 

I am sorry to hear you have had some negative experience with Upwork freelancers. David is correct, Job Success score counts all jobs including those where no money was paid or all the money was refunded. In this way Job Success score provides more information about the freelancer's performance on the platform than the star rating does.

 

I hope it helps.

~ Valeria
Upwork


@Valeria K wrote:

Success score provides more information about the freelancer's performance on the platform than the star rating does.


This is untrue.  While it could do that, the way Upwork has implemented it is to push the blame for all project failures on to the freelancer, even the ones that are entirely the client's fault.  Since you do not give a JS score to clients, your JS score for freelancers paints an incomplete picture of their ability and professionalism.

 

I agree with Darrin,

 

It's not the case always contractor will right and the developer is wrong. Sometimes there is bad contractor too on up work.

 

Like in my case. I have worked on a task which took me 2 hours to complete the task and contractor said why it took 2 hours which was the obvious hours.

 

Then he gave me another task which doesn't make sense at all database he created without any relationships and asked me to pull the data. which was very challenging and I don't want to dirty my hand as he was very concerned about the hours.

 

Then he asked me to refund the money I have other tasks too. I have to do that to keep my profile PS good.

 

So how it would help developers even it's not their fault and they have to suffer?

 

thanks


@Mukesh K wrote:

I agree with Darrin,

 

It's not the case always contractor will right and the developer is wrong. Sometimes there is bad contractor too on up work.

 

Like in my case. I have worked on a task which took me 2 hours to complete the task and contractor said why it took 2 hours which was the obvious hours.

 

Then he gave me another task which doesn't make sense at all database he created without any relationships and asked me to pull the data. which was very challenging and I don't want to dirty my hand as he was very concerned about the hours.

 

Then he asked me to refund the money I have other tasks too. I have to do that to keep my profile PS good.

 

So how it would help developers even it's not their fault and they have to suffer?

 

thanks


This thread is 2 years old.

 

You have to use your real photo on your profile.

There is more to being a successful freelancer on Upwork than just winning a job and delivering a product.


@Valeria K wrote:

Hi John,

 

I am sorry to hear you have had some negative experience with Upwork freelancers. David is correct, Job Success score counts all jobs including those where no money was paid or all the money was refunded. In this way Job Success score provides more information about the freelancer's performance on the platform than the star rating does.

 

I hope it helps.


 Then why isn't it possible to use job success score as a search criteria just like I can use the star rating?

I will like to say that " Upwork freelancers are already in alot of problems 😛

So i hope that there will be no other implementations that effects the freelancers too .

Thanks

"One thing I know, that I know nothing. This is the source of my wisdom"
kugrin
Community Member


@John S wrote:

Then why isn't it possible to use job success score as a search criteria just like I can use the star rating?


 

John, they must be experimenting with different search views, because I can only filter by job success score, but not star rating. In fact, I can no longer see the star rating in search.

 

js filter.JPG

yitwail
Community Member

 

 


@Krisztina U wrote:

@John S wrote:

Then why isn't it possible to use job success score as a search criteria just like I can use the star rating?


 

John, they must be experimenting with different search views, because I can only filter by job success score, but not star rating. In fact, I can no longer see the star rating in search.

 


Kristina, I can only filter by feedback so this must be either an experimental feature or a bug. Still, seems to me it should include a further category, 70% & Up, because Upwork considers that to be an acceptable JS score.

__________________________________________________
"No good deed goes unpunished." -- Clare Boothe Luce
elastella
Community Member


@Krisztina U wrote:

@John S wrote:

Then why isn't it possible to use job success score as a search criteria just like I can use the star rating?


 

John, they must be experimenting with different search views, because I can only filter by job success score, but not star rating. In fact, I can no longer see the star rating in search.

 

js filter.JPG


 

You asked for it - and 2 hours later 'the team' is already working on implementing it! 

 

Krisztina, I am so glad to know you because 'the team' is really listening to you.

Even though you are NOT Top Rated and your profile is only 50% complete...

 

 

 

 

Hi Team Upwork,

My client has cancelled project twice. Once for extending time line for porject as there is a feedback delay form his end and second time, he got some staff via another channel which he wants to recruit through me. As it is on closing basis fees, I have to refund his money. As in both cases, I am not at fault, Will this affect my JSR?

Regards,

Bhavik

Hi Bhavik,

 

Thank you for your message. If the contract was canceled within 24 hours of the client submitting requirements to you, there will be no penalty or impact on your Job Success Score. Thereafter, the client will have an option to leave feedback that could impact your Job Success Score.

 

Thank you,

Pradeep

Upwork

Hi Pradeep,

Thanks for your quick insightful reply. So if client has given possitive feedback as he is calcelling contract not because defect in my service then I would have possitive impact on my job success ration?

I have one more query regarding free connect while replying to invites. I have replied to invitation for bid and submitted my proposal too and client has responded to my proposal too still I am not getting free connect. Why it is so? As far as I know, I am eligable for free connects. Can you clarify it too? 

Regards,

Bhavik

Hi Bhavik,

 

As Pradeep mentioned, Project Catalog contracts canceled within 24 hours do not count towards the JSS. Regarding your second question, Connects are not awarded in cases where the client invited you to apply to their job post. You may check this help article to learn more.

~ Luiggi
Upwork
odeskos
Community Member

I wish both criteries could be allowed in search.

faithfj
Community Member

I've had many issue like that. I've given the freelancers the courtesy of negotiating and making sure they are happy and satisfied with all the terms and conditions over several days, they agreed, I hired them and then they either cancelled the contract before they start or a day or two later for NO reason. I've contacted upwork many times regarding issues like that over the years and they have not taken any steps to hold contractors accountable. 

 

A contractor can waste our time however and whenever he/she wants and there are NO repercussions. Contractors know this and the bad apples take full advantage of it.


@Faith J wrote:

 I've contacted upwork many times regarding issues like that over the years and they have not taken any steps to hold contractors accountable. 

 

A contractor can waste our time however and whenever he/she wants and there are NO repercussions. Contractors know this and the bad apples take full advantage of it.



 Faith, I really mean no disrespect, but that was the best (hysterical) laugh of the day.

 

Freelancers are being held accountable for almost everything on this platform. Even clients hat go MIA.

We pay with our JS score for literally everything that can possibly go wrong with a contract.

 

Obviously, clients and freelancers face different challenges on here. I remember one client even suggesting that freelancers should be banned from posting in the client section...

 

Well, I think it would be beneficial to both parties if clients spent some time reading threads on the other side of the fence. I want to understand the problems clients face, that is why I am reading this section of the forum as well.

Clients could gain A LOT of insight by dedicating some time to the freelancer section, IMHO.

 

Best,

Ela

kugrin
Community Member


@Faith J wrote:

I've had many issue like that. I've given the freelancers the courtesy of negotiating and making sure they are happy and satisfied with all the terms and conditions over several days, they agreed, I hired them and then they either cancelled the contract before they start or a day or two later for NO reason. I've contacted upwork many times regarding issues like that over the years and they have not taken any steps to hold contractors accountable. 

 

A contractor can waste our time however and whenever he/she wants and there are NO repercussions. Contractors know this and the bad apples take full advantage of it.


Faith, while I do agree with one of your other posts that lying and cheating freelancers should not let be off the hook, I disagree that freelancers face no repercussions. I second what Ela already explained. Freelancers are measured, rated, ranked and penalized in two dozen ways by Upwork. Unfortunately, most these measures have proven ineffective as they penalize those freelancers that clients and Upwork want to work with, and are not catching the ones the platform needs to get rid off. This problem won't be solved by introducing even more rating mechanisms, but by simplifying and enforcing the existing ones.

 

Also, if you keep running into the same situations and make the same poor experiences, something in your hiring process is broken. Instead of spending a lot of time on a person you have not yet worked with, hire them for a small paid trial project. If they do well, they have at least proven themselves to be capable of what was agreed upon and are worthy of contract discussions.

 

I am sure you would feel better if those time wasters were properly punished, many of us would too, but a time waster getting punished or not does zero for your project, so your time is much better spent developing a process that allows you to get your project off the ground quickly. 

suznee
Community Member


@Faith J wrote:

I've had many issue like that. I've given the freelancers the courtesy of negotiating and making sure they are happy and satisfied with all the terms and conditions over several days, they agreed, I hired them and then they either cancelled the contract before they start or a day or two later for NO reason. I've contacted upwork many times regarding issues like that over the years and they have not taken any steps to hold contractors accountable. 

 

A contractor can waste our time however and whenever he/she wants and there are NO repercussions. Contractors know this and the bad apples take full advantage of it.


Faith,


There are repercussions, I cancelled a job after I started, (and I am not stating all cancellations are for this reason) but I was not told that the client wanted me to do reviews on untested products. I had assumed and yes it was my fault for not asking but most jobs I have done off Upwork that wanted a review on a product wanted me to test it and review it. This particular job wanted me to write a fake review and post it on Amazon. I declined to do the review and when I did I was penalized for it. Even though I had done no work or exchaged money. I didn't even waste their time I declined the job as soon as it was outlined, so I didn't waste anyones time, but in my stats clients that would recommend me my score dropped considerably.

 

So whether you think someone is not being penalized for their actions you are wrong. Whether the freelancer is right or wrong for what happens we are penalized.

 

 

re: I declined to do the review and when I did I was penalized for it. 

 

This is the reason why having an algorithm rating our activity here is not the best solution. Sometimes it simply fails. And there are other situations when the algorithm fails, this is not the only one.

 

I am sorry to say it, but we are forced to delay any positive answer to job offers until everthing looks fine. I am a little disappointed that I have to do "detective" work each time I am interviewed by a client. 

45ea6e01
Community Member

Couldn't agree more.

 

It seems some contractors view accepting a project as a free option if the project seems too hard or something better comes along then go unresponsive and eventually abandon the project. This seems to happen without them thinking twice or suffering any consequences.

re: "Hiring multiple redundant contractors for time-sensitive jobs means you are wasting the contractor’s time."

 

Faith,

I don't understand where you're coming from with this.

 

How is it wasting a contractor's time if a client hires multiple contractors to do the same job?

 

I am a client.

I need File X prepared by tomorrow.

I mean, I REALLY need File X prepared by tomorrow. This is important.

 

I have never worked with these types of contractors before. I don't have a group of contractors I know I can rely on for past experience.

 

So I hire three contractors to process File X.

 

Two of them process File X and I pay them for their time. (It was an hourly contract.)

 

One of them never even started the project, although I specifically said I needed it by tomorrow. The contracts are closed for all 3 contractors.

 

In the end, I'm glad I hired 3 people instead of just the one person who failed to deliver.

 

Two contractors DID deliver the file, and they were both paid at the rate they quoted me and they were both given highly complimentary reviews.


This is a very common type of situation.

 

Do you really think that the client was wasting any contractors' time, or did you not understand the scenario?


@Preston H wrote:

re: "Hiring multiple redundant contractors for time-sensitive jobs means you are wasting the contractor’s time."

 

Faith,

I don't understand where you're coming from with this.

 

How is it wasting a contractor's time if a client hires multiple contractors to do the same job?

 

I am a client.

I need File X prepared by tomorrow.

I mean, I REALLY need File X prepared by tomorrow. This is important.

 

I have never worked with these types of contractors before. I don't have a group of contractors I know I can rely on for past experience.

 

So I hire three contractors to process File X.

 

Two of them process File X and I pay them for their time. (It was an hourly contract.)

 

One of them never even started the project, although I specifically said I needed it by tomorrow. The contracts are closed for all 3 contractors.

 

In the end, I'm glad I hired 3 people instead of just the one person who failed to deliver.

 

Two contractors DID deliver the file, and they were both paid at the rate they quoted me and they were both given highly complimentary reviews.


This is a very common type of situation.

 

Do you really think that the client was wasting any contractors' time, or did you not understand the scenario?


 But was your end game to hire and work with only 1 contractor, and give them the bulk of your work? If yes, then the hiring was a little deceitful to the contractor who did NOT get hired for all of the work. Yes, they got hired for that portion of the work, and yes, you did pay them for their time, so that is good, but can you not see how that would be discouraging to contractors, and be a waste of their time?

 

Frankly, if I see a job where multiple people are being hired, I don't even bid on it. I am looking for long-term relationships with clients who value my work. It's one thing if I don't do writing, and the client I have been working with on design jobs hires someone else for writing, but if I see that the client starts hiring other people for design, after giving me good feedback for my work to my face, then I suspect I am being lied to, and look elsewhere. Otherwise, why would they be hiring other people?

 

evetodew
Community Member

@clients in this topic:

 

1. A freelancer gets the job. On the next day, they change their mind. They close the contract. The client suffers due to time lost. Freelancer's JS should drop because of a closed contract with no work/money exchanged. Freelancer is penalized.

 

2. A freelancer gets a job. S/he works on it. Gets paid regularly. Client is happy. Suddenly client disappears. Month after month, there's no message from them. Nothing. Freelancer's JS drops because of a stale contract. Freelancer decides to close it. JS drops (further). Freelancer is penalized.

 

So, @OP and Faith, do you see anywhere in the two versions above that a freelancer ISN'T penalized for a closed contract, no matter if it's the freelancer's or the client's fault? In both cases, it's the freelancer.

 

With all due respect to all clients on this platform, I think there's WAY to much pressure on freelancers when sometimes the client is so pampered that they don't even see that maybe they are at fault too. If your freelancers suddenly end the contract and disappeared, I am almost 100% sure that there were red flags you neglected to take notice of. Or maybe you didn't communicate in the interview stage. Or maybe you were tempted by the freelancer's low rate, so you could spend less $ for 'quality work'?

 

There are reasons why clients land on unreliable freelancers. If you can't read the red flags, then it's your fault for picking that freelancer. Of course, not to mention that such unreliable freelancers ruin the platform's reputation, and other more honest and reliable freelancers may suffer at times.

 

About improper communication with freelancers:

 

I had a potential client. He wanted a logo designed. Great. I saw that he did want quality delivered, and was ready to accept my rate. So far so good. He sent me a message plus two images, which featured the font he wanted. The idea was to have a custom font (hand-lettering) designed. So, when he sent me the two images, he said something like 'I want a similar font'. Errr, ok. Is this all?!?

 

Then I tried to get some more information about him, the company, the project. I can't work with information packed in just a few words. That's super unprofessional. I love to know the project. I struggle extremely much with clients who just don't bother to tell me about themselves and mostly the company. How can I design a logo for a company if I don't know anything about it?? He said they don't have a website yet. And that they were a beauty salon. And... that's it. I tried to extract more, but his awful English meant one thing - virtually no way to communicate about the project. It was like birth labors!! I realized that even if I understood exactly what he wants, I may have further problems when it comes to revisions and edits. It would have been a dreadful contract. So, that was it.

 

Why do I tell you all this? The red flag for me - bad communication. If I sense that in a contract, I know I'll have more of that during the contract, until the very end. I'd hate myself for working in such conditions. I used to neglect such red flags, but this time it was clear - no more!

 

So, if clients were more sensitive about who they talk to, how they talk to them, how they present the information, how they respond... then these clients would have fewer headaches and more work done on time.

 

P.S. And don't take freelancers as coffee machines who deliver work by pressing a button. If you could not utter one word probably you'd love it. But a professional freelancer DOES talk a lot and regularly with his/her clients. I know it takes time, but that's how the Pros do it. Only on Upwork do I see clients who interview me and virtually.... don't interview me. They just tell me 1-2 sentences, and I'm expected to understand that. With insufficient input, you can't expect sufficient quality work.

re: "But was your end game to hire and work with only 1 contractor, and give them the bulk of your work?"

 

No, nothing of the sort was implied.

 

Yes, I can understand how a contractor could think that their time was being wasted if further work was promised.

 

I do NOT advocate telling contractors there will be more work when there really won't be. There is absolutely no reason to do so. Plenty of honest contractors relish the opportunity to work on small projects which pay well and then end.

 

Obviously it is wrong to promise more work when there isn't more work. But it is also incorrect for a contractor to assume that any specific job will necessarily lead to more when no such assertion has been made.

 

Thank you for helping me understand what might be the source of Faith's objection.

andyye
Community Member

I've just had the following story:

 

1. Client hires me for a new contract to fix an .htaccess file

 

2. I accept the offer, but realize that there is a better way to handle SEO URLs, and show the client how to use it. I'm not a penny pincher so I don't bill for  such tiny tasks.

 

3. We keep the project open for a possible further job

 

4. A kind but not smart Upwork person contacts my client and suggests to close the contract due to inactivity.

 

5. The client treats it as an official directive and follows it (ie. closes the contract).

 

So I helped the client for free and I'm going to get a feedback penalty.

 

Ridiculous.

 

 

Last year they contacted an active client who hired me for an on-going project and recommended him to "look for another developer at Upwork" (sic!). Just because the Upwork person who monitored the project dicsussion decided so (surprisingly his/her IQ allowed some reading skills). 

 

Upwork is a disaster.

Hi Andrey,

Sorry for the inconvenience. I understand that you helped the client out for free as you said in your post you chose not to charge them for a small job, but that you wanted to leave the contract open for future possible work, and the client will still be able to hire you on another contract for any additional work. Since you are within the 14 day period, the client can still leave you feedback. They can go to the "Jobs" tab and click on "All contracts" and click on the name of the contract and fill out their feedback. They can also give feedback after 14 day feedback period if you enable them to do so.

 

~Nina

Andrey, I expect your client received the *automatic* email suggesting they *pause* their inactive job. I find it extremely unlikely that an actual person from Upwork contacted your client directly. This is why you should always bill for a minimum of 15 minutes so you don't end up with a contract with no money exchanged.

Thanks Nina & Jennifer, now I know another Upwork "hack", but I still don't feel happy because Upwork managed to shoot their leg twice in a single case. Oh, actually it was my leg!

I've been re-hired by the client right after he found out he didn't have to end contract as Upwork suggested.

I will check if this case affects JS. Will report here in a few days after JS is refreshed.

 

 

If no money at all was paid on the contract, it will almost certainly ding your JSS.

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