Scammed over $1000+ in two projects by Freelancers - then threatened by Upwork

[6159e581]

I have been scammed by two freelancers since joining this Platform.

The first incident involved the Freelancer asking for a deposit for a small script. There was no guidance on issuing deposits for milestones in order for the freelancer to start working and the natural course of things implied that this was normal. How else would freelancers protect themselves from starting a project and prospective clients from running away. 

In my case, they asked for me to release the 'deposit' milestone and then ran off. It took over 4 weeks to receive a proper response from Upwork and seemed like they lost track of my dispute. I had to email them in order to get my dispute progressed. They told me there was nothing they could do. When I raised the possibility of a bank payment dispute I was threatened with action against my account by Upwork officials over email. Essentially, if I tried to get my money back from the scammer they would close my account down and come after me for the payment amount. This makes no sense. I was then sent two conflicting emails, one which stated the scammer had their account limited and another one which said the scammer was still on the platform, implied with some comment about they still had the right to operation on Upwork. Astonishing. 

I recently took out another contract. I thought I would try again this time not paying for any deposit and doing my due diligence. I needed a Telegram PM program coded up. The coder seemed to know his stuff and we worked through the milestones together. Towards the end, the PM function was tied into finalising of the project and that the program would be released to me on full and last payment, Up to 600+ USD. I took my precautions and made sure at each stage that we video called and screen shared in order to see the functions at work. The whole program was based on being able to PM a list of people on TG which were scraped from the platform. He assured me at every stage he had no issue in testing and that it would work. He even coded the PM functions and presumed to show it to me over video, which I have a recording of. He had coded a fake 'real' PM script which would actually just delete the error message really quickly. 

After confronting him a week later, as his communication was starting to drop with me and he was becoming unresponsive, he told me that the PM function would not work and that he has now moved onto two other projects so he has no time to fix it and would not to do it unless he was paid. 

I am now initiating a dispute via Upwork but I have no trust in the process. Any advice? 

[VladimirG]

Hi AJ,

I'm sorry to hear about your experience on the two contracts you mentioned. I reviewed the tickets related to the first contract and can confirm our team took appropriate steps, regularly responded on your tickets and updated you regarding the steps they were taking. Note that the information our agent shared about the actions taken against users who file a chargeback is in line with our ToS, as are the other details you were notified about, which I can't share publicly. Please note that all the options were exhausted and our team advised you about the reason why the funds you released can't be reversed to you, as well as the actions taken against the freelancer's account. Please refer to the advice our team shared, review the ToS and other resources they shared about releasing payments and our dispute process, in order to use the platform successfully.

Regarding the second contract, I see you're already communicating with our team and would advise you to keep communicating through the existing ticket, since we can't share dispute-specific information in the Community. Thank you.

[6159e581]

That's nonsense. 

I had someone take over the first case who didn't know anything about it. I had to forward all the emails to them and explain the situation again. After days and weeks of sending emails to receive an update from upwork. 

Stop lying. 

[VladimirG]

Hi AJ,

I'm sorry if you're not satisfied or agree with the information I shared. Please note that we do have access to the conversation you had with our team through your support tickets and while a team member with whom you communicated on your second ticket wasn't aware about the update another team member posted on the first ticket regarding one aspect of your case, the information you received was shared on time, in line with our internal procedures and in detail.

I understand you're not happy with the outcome of the first contract you reported but I can reiterate that our team used all the available resources and followed all the steps outlined in our ToS, and shared all the information on your support tickets.

Finally, I'd like to kindly ask you to treat our team with respect and keep in mind our Community Guidelines in your future replies.

[9d6dfbcc]

Your money is in all likelihood lost forever. That's the non-level playing field one-sided high risk of paying milestones. Once the milestone is paid from escrow all the risk is on the employer not the FL because it's non-recoverable regardless of completing job to your satisfaction. That appears to be the case regarding  hourly jobs too, all the money you paid is gone even if it never works as expected.

There should be a rule the FL must refund if job not satisfactorily done, however even if you join Upwork Pro and pay $500 up-front plus 10% fee PRO support will say recourse is ask the freelancer to voluntarily refund milestones LOL.

I can't think of any other business where you must pay without refunds upon non-performance. Can you imagine your auto mechanic charging you in advance and saying sorry he did not have the skill or time to fix your car but you must pay anyway! 

[astepanov83]

Haha, great analogy with the auto mechanic.

Unfortunately, it's not correct in case the job is done and the client doesn't want to pay. In this case your auto mechanic can easily become angry and kick you with a wrench, or call police, or do whatever he can do in your country.

What if the money could be easily recovered by the client at any moment? What would a freelancer do in the situation when the work is done and the client took his money back? Shout angrily at his display, or throw a wrench (mouse, keyboard, cup) in it?

All the solutions have pros and cons.

[9d6dfbcc]

I'm confused Alek, If job is done and works well and to specifications why would employer not want to pay?

[sam-sly]

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@David G wrote:

I'm confused Alek, If job is done and works well and to specifications why would employer not want to pay?

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 Actually, it is pretty common on this platform for scam "clients" to commission work, use it, but refuse to pay. I am not sure how common it is for programmers, but it is a really common problem for writers and designers.  And freelancers have little recourse if this happens especially if they didn't set their contracts up in the right way.

I am not sure why, but it seems that on the client end there are quite a few scam "freelancers" posing as programmers. It may be because many clients don't have the expertise to oversee a programming contract. It often happens to clients who work for a low paid programmer, in a country other than their own, who doesn't have many prior reviews or a strong job success score. Sometimes the pay is enough that it seems worth it to them to ghost. That is less likely to happen with a freelancer who has had success on this platform and who cares about maintaining their business reputation. 

About pre-released milestones... Most freelancers I know outside of platforms do require an upfront deposit from new clients. However, that isn't usually necessary on Upwork due to the milestone system. If the client funds the milestone, the freelancer knows the money is there. In that case, it is fine to release it after the milestone is complete. However, the milestone usually needs to be a manageable piece of work that the freelancer can complete relatively quickly. (How quickly will vary by the freelancer and the industry).

[yitwail]

Samantha, great answer.

A J, you wrote, "Towards the end, the PM function was tied into finalising of the project and that the program would be released to me on full and last payment." While I hope you'll recover your money this time, you should not have agreed to a final payment before receiving the finished product; that is NOT standard procedure at Upwork for fixed price jobs. Here's Upwork's recommendation for releasing fixed price funds:

• Release funds only when the work submitted is done and satisfactory. When you release funds from escrow, you are agreeing to pay the freelancer for their work. If you release funds from escrow before any work is submitted, you lose leverage over the work completed and may run into issues.

Source: https://support.upwork.com/hc/en-us/articles/211068208-Fixed-Price-Contracts-How-it-works-and-Best-P...

Experienced, ethical freelancers will not request advance payments on fixed price jobs, because they understand that payment is given after submitting work, not before.

[tlsanders]

Samantha, you are cogent and reasonable as always in the response above. I just want to quibble with one point. Since the milestone system doesn't actually provide any protection at all to freelancers who can't pay the $291 arbitration fee, it's not entirely accurate to say that there's no reason a freelancer should feel the need to get a deposit in advance.

Whether that's acceptable, the client wants to agree, etc. is a different matter, but it's not really fair to present the milestone system as an alternative protection, since it's fairly common for freelancers to work against a funded milestone and then get paid nothing if they can't afford paying for arbitration or the amount in dispute makes that a losing proposition.

[astepanov83]

I ran into a similar situation with one of my previous contracts. The client usually funded every milestone, and the money released automatically when our agreements on every milestone were reached. When we agreed on the last milestone, I didn't notice that he didn't fund the money to escrow. It's almost the same as if the client would silently take his money back after funding the milestone. We worked together for more than half a year, and there was not a single sign not to trust him. I believed he would pay me. After last milestone was over, he asked me to wait for a couple of weeks. I couldn't do anything but to agree. In the end, I didn't see my money, it was $2k. Again, all the agreements of the last milestone were reached (read - the job is done). I'm not very disappointed with that. If this client is willing to continue working with me one day, he will have to pay me for that unpaid milestone. This is possible due to the nature of his work and because he invested much in me already.

Funny thing is, before working with me that client was scammed by another freelancer. He lost around $4k on an hourly-paid contract. After that he was afraid of working on hourly basis with me. So I agreed on milestones and in the end he could reduce his losses 🙂

[9d6dfbcc]

Never got replies to this...

"I am confused Alek (and other freelancers who seem excessively worried about it), If the job is done and works well and to its specifications why would an employer not want to pay?"

[sam-sly]

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@David G wrote:

Never got replies to this...

"I am confused Alek (and other freelancers who seem excessively worried about it), If the job is done and works well and to its specifications why would an employer not want to pay?"

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 I am not Alek, but I did reply. See the post up-thread. Also, Alek did kind of reply by sharing his example of what happened to him.

[9d6dfbcc]

Thanks but I still fail to iunderstand why an employer would not pay if job was coded correctly? Is it only because of alleged dishonesty? I am sure the vast majority are honest, right? If you want evidence the emlployer has the needed funds all you need to do is ask for one big milestone to escrow, or as an option agree in writing (assuming that's allowed by Upwork) to refund any multiple milestones if job was not done to clients satisfaction.

[astepanov83]

del

[tlsanders]

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@David G wrote:

Thanks but I still fail to iunderstand why an employer would not pay if job was coded correctly? Is it only because of alleged dishonesty? I am sure the vast majority are honest, right? If you want evidence the emlployer has the needed funds all you need to do is ask for one big milestone to escrow, or as an option agree in writing (assuming that's allowed by Upwork) to refund any multiple milestones if job was not done to clients satisfaction.

David, it seems like you are unable to wrap your head around this because you're an honest person. That's great, but it's not universal. The simple answer to your question is that some people are crooks. It's a minority, for sure, but newish freelancers are easy prey in the same way that other types of scam artists prey on the elderly or on people who are in desperate financial circumstances.

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[resultsassoc]

As a client, I hire freelancers mostly on a board other than Upwork. The terms are a bit different, but my freelancers know about my pipeline before they start. I only hire fixed-price on that board, and autofund every milestone. I've been scammed by two freelancers whom I had grown to trust. A US Law School grad living in Pakistan had worked for me for a year, as had her husband, both reliable. She pled urgency and I paid her $1,500 up front for a job requiring 30 articles summarizing specific federal banking laws. She delivered one plagiarized piece, never got my money back, I had to fire her (gladly) and her husband (very sadly). Another, from Turkey, had been maintaining my website for a year, and I paid him $400 in advance to convert it to Wordpress. A year later he said he had a psychotic break (probably correct) and would refund my money in a week (nope).

I have used the same editor for two years, autofund two milestones, and release the first one on due date without seeing anything. She sends me the completed work, I release the payment, then look at it. My default cover designer is fabulous, so much so that I have partnered with her on two jobs as a  provider. If she wanted payment upfront, I'd give it to her. I use Upwork for small value hourly jobs with limited weekly hours. No problems at all.

As a provider I have never been scammed on Upwork or the other platform. I've been badly scammed three times in fifteen years by private clients. They all lived in Cleveland, Ohio. Probably coincidence.

With hourly jobs (few) I refuse to use timetrackeer, had a problem with only one client for a measley $50 half hour.

Your official reply sounds familiar. We've got our commission, refer to ToS 7.b.(4)(k)((16)). On another platform, a small job ($1,500) the client insisted on direct payment for reasons that made sense to him, if not me. I alerted the platform, promised to send them their commission via check. They were fine with that. I got paid and wrote a check.

After that experience, I was interviewed by an elance client for an emergency job. Either he fixed the problem within two hours, or his company went bankrupt. He was correct, it was a genuine emergency. Those exist in my field; there are few emergency blog posts, data entries, or $20 app designs. Taking the time to hire me, accept, confirm, wasn't available. I fixed his problem in a hair under two hours, then asked him to award me the job and pay me. He disappeared.

I emailed elance about it, relayed my experience on another board, and asked if I could pursue payment outside elance. My response was worse than yours. I was scolded for doing free work, not allowed, and for seeking payment outside elance. My account was threatened with immediate termiination, and put on some sort of "naughty" watch list, monitored for a year.

Since then, on elance and now Upwork, I tell prospective clients with an emergency that Upwork prefers their companies go bankrupt to allowing me to fix the problem without a contract. If contracting is too time-consuming, prepare for Chapter Eleven.

[kat303]

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@A J wrote:

I am now initiating a dispute via Upwork but I have no trust in the process. Any advice? 

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 Yes, You can hire a project manager to oversee your project and to make sure it is "real" and works. But most importantly, don't release any escrowed funds until you test out the program to make sureit's working correctly. For fixed rate jobs, when the freelancer finishes the scope of work assigned to a milestone, or the entire job, a client has 14 days in which to look it over, test it, and whatever else them may need to do to make sure it's working and it's what the client wanted. Then and only then should a client release payment for the milestone or job. When releasing escrowed funds you are basically saying the job is finished and you approve of the results. 

Both times, you released the funds in escrow before the freelancer started work, The first time, before the freelancer even started work, and the second time before you had time to test out the results. That 2nd time it took you only a week to find out it wasn't working and was fake, Upwork gives you 14 days to do that. 

My advice is not to release funds until you get the work, and until you've had time to check it out. Remember, for fixed rate jobs you are paying for the work the freelancer does, as opposed to hourly jobs where you pay for the time the freelancer worked, not the work that was produced. Work with fixed rate jobs and escrow procedures correctly and you won't have this problem.

[9d6dfbcc]

That sounds good but why add to the cost with Project Manager expense when the client should be able to easily evaluate how the finished code is working far better than any third party. After all, who would know more about the way it is operating better than the employer.

[resultsassoc]

David,

No client or freelancer is criticizing you. You were unaware of the intricacies of navigating Upwork as a client, and all of us commiserate. You've been given advice about use of fixed-price, which pays for output, and hourly, which pays for input. Fixed price is usually appropriate.

Establishing a milestone and funding it assures the freelancer you're serious, and he will probably get paid. He doesn't get the money until you are satisfied and release it. Do not release the payment without ensuring your item functions to your satisfaction. A mid-point isn't always assessable, but a final delivery is. Final means that it is what you requested, and that it serves your purpose to your needs and standards. I do not pay first-time freelancers until checking the final deliverable.

[9d6dfbcc]

Thankis Bill, and I appreciate very good points you have made.

[kat303]

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@David G wrote:

That sounds good but why add to the cost with Project Manager expense when the client should be able to easily evaluate how the finished code is working far better than any third party. After all, who would know more about the way it is operating better than the employer.

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There are many clients here, who may not have the experience and/or knowledge you have. As a project progresses, a client may not be aware if anything is wrong. They get the project and assume that because they got their work done, it's ok and they quickly release the funds in escrow. Then they discover that this isn't working, or they need the source code, or they find out the work/images/articles were copied from the internet. I don't know how experienced you are. But regardless of that, you have 14 days in which to test the completed work, or look to see if it was copied elsewhere etc. Upwork could well enough say, when you get the work, release the funds. But they give ALL clients enough time to check and approve any work received. In the future don't be in such a rush when you receive your work. If you find anything wrong, then you can dispute the freelancers request for payment otherwise after 14 days all funds in escrow will be automatically released to the freelancer.