Reply
cancel
Showing results for 
Search instead for 
Did you mean: 
Reply

Re: Why am I forced to give feedback?

Community Guru
Claudia Z Member Since: Jul 28, 2015
11 of 40

The system doesnt recognize the tests differently then any other job. Its still considered a job for which you payed someone to do something.


I agree, the clients should not be forced to rate the freelancer when they close the job. You are not forced to write a feedback, you can leave that emtpy.

Highlighted
Community Guru
Preston H Member Since: Nov 24, 2014
12 of 40

Don't over-think this.

 

If, as a client, you hire a contractor for a short test job, and then you need to close the contract, and you don't want to take time to think about the feedback... Just leave the free-form feedback comments blank and give the contractor all fives.

 

Okay, maybe that skews things. I don't know. But a client has that choice. If a client doesn't want to take time to think about a contractor's work, perhaps because the client spent very little time with the contractor, or for any other reason, then simply providing 5-star feedback and positive private feedback is a harmless way to close things off with the contractor.

 

I would prefer that clients spend a little time thinking about their interaction with the contractor and providing accurate, honest feedback.

 

But if they can't do that, then giving positive feedback is a better alternative than not closing the contract.

Active Member
Yaron E Member Since: Jan 1, 2015
13 of 40

Yes, But as far as I know these systems are designed by humans, that means that somebody decided to make it this way.

 

The few first hours with a Freelancer, are times that you are still examining if the relationship is right for both of you. not only technically but at multiple levels. you might be a fit technically but personally you're not on the same wave.

 

And really it's too early to tell, and shouldn't be forced.

I have to say, I have never encountered on the web or otherwise a situation where I am forced to judge a person on a whim just for the sake of giving feedback. 

 

And when I say feedback, is't either by stars or text, since both of them are feedback, one is verbally in the other by a scale.

 

Community Guru
Barbara W Member Since: Sep 10, 2015
14 of 40

@Yaron E wrote:

Yes, But as far as I know these systems are designed by humans, that means that somebody decided to make it this way.

 

The few first hours with a Freelancer, are times that you are still examining if the relationship is right for both of you. not only technically but at multiple levels. you might be a fit technically but personally you're not on the same wave.

 

And really it's too early to tell, and shouldn't be forced.

I have to say, I have never encountered on the web or otherwise a situation where I am forced to judge a person on a whim just for the sake of giving feedback. 

 

And when I say feedback, is't either by stars or text, since both of them are feedback, one is verbally in the other by a scale.

 


If they were a good fit technically, but you didn't have meshing personalities, as you mentioned in this post...

 

...why would you ding them for being high-quality but not a good personal match? This is a professional site, not a dating site; their personal match with you shouldn't factor into how you rate their work.

 

You can even give them 5-star feedback and then mention that their vision didn't align with yours, if that's the case.

 

Or you can take one of the countless other bits of advice the people in this thread have given you on the subject, until such a point where Upwork decides to abandon the JSS and the feedback is no longer mandatory.

 

(FWIW, many freelancers have discussed the ability for clients to receive job success/communication scores as well. Imagine if your freelancers could drop your job success by refusing to leave feedback! Then imagine how the freelancers feel if you choose to do the same to them - which you do currently have the power to do.) 

- Barbara Herrera -
Community Guru
Nichola L Member Since: Mar 13, 2015
15 of 40

"Yes, But as far as I know these systems are designed by humans, that means that somebody decided to make it this way."

 

Yes, they did make it this way, but they did not think it through. I think as you do, that there ought to be neutral ground for paid tests, but non-awarded jobs

 

"The few first hours with a Freelancer, are times that you are still examining if the relationship is right for both of you. not only technically but at multiple levels. you might be a fit technically but personally you're not on the same wave."

 

Absolutely. But given the way the system is set up at the moment, give the freelancer the benefit of the doubt. He or she might not be on your wavelength, but could be on the same wavelength as another client. 

 

And really it's too early to tell, and shouldn't be forced.

I have to say, I have never encountered on the web or otherwise a situation where I am forced to judge a person on a whim just for the sake of giving feedback. 

 

All we can hope for is for this thread to be 'shared' with the head honchos. You should not be forced. It is totally unprofessional and it puts both potential client and potential freelancer in a completely false light, as well as harming a freelancer's earning potential.

 

"And when I say feedback, is't either by stars or text, since both of them are feedback, one is verbally in the other by a scale."

 

I don't think there is a freelancer who would disagree with you - send your concerns  to the CEO personally. I am not joking.

Community Guru
Hanna N Member Since: Jun 17, 2015
16 of 40

Yaron, if you feel that you don't have enough data to rate the freelancer based on a short test job, please consider this scenario:

 

The algorithms on UpWork require a freelancer to have five feedbacks before they calculate a Job Success Score for the freelancer. JSS is the only thing that is now shown with our proposals, and you need a JSS of atleast 90% to become Top Rated. If all my clients would have thought that a couple of hours work is not worth rating, then my job history would have this feedback pattern:

 

My first job took me 20 minutes. (no feedback)

 

My second one took me 40 minutes. (no feedback)

 

Third one took a couple of days. (1)

 

Fourth work was for the same client as the third one, took about an hour. (No feedback)

 

Fifth one took two hours. (No feedback)

 

6th one took me four hours, but I do not have feedback on it as the client wanted to keep the contract open in case he needs me for something else. 

 

7th one was my first hourly contract. If the client would not have decided to give me a raise, this contract would still be ongoing, and I would not have feedback on it before it ended.

 

8th one took me 40 minutes. (no feedback)

 

9th one  took me about 10 hours. (2nd feedback)

 

10th job took me 4 hours. (feedback 3)

 

11th took me 40 minutes. Also, the client never closed the contract. (no feedback)

 

12th took me an hour. The client gave me more work, which took me 40 minutes. The client also left the contract open for future needs, so no feedback before she closes it.

 

13th took me 3 hours, but the client left the job open for future needs, so no feedback before the contract is closed.

 

14th took me 40 minutes. (no feedback)

 

15th  took me 2 hours. (no feedback)

 

16th is an ongoing contract that I won't get feedback on before it is closed, and that should not happen for months, maybe even years.

 

 

Basically, in my case, if my clients had thought that they did not have enough data on me to rate my skills based on a couple of hours work, I would still have no JSS score, which would have made me ineligible for the Top Rated badge I received last week, and all the perks and highlighting that goes with it. While I am sure that most of the freelancers here do not work only on short jobs, there are also a lot of us who do, and if short jobs were not considered feedback-worthy, that would put us in a very unfavorable situation. Also, as all of us have to start from somewhere, those first few feedbacks can make or break a budding freelancer's career here - especially since many clients do not want to be in the situation where they have to be the ones to take a gamble on the untested contractors. 

 

I sincerely understand your precidament, as I would never want to pester a client to leave me feedback - not only do I feel that it is unprofessional, I also think it has a very untasteful flavour of begging. But the way this websites' algorithms have been built, it has become necessary for the freelancers here, which is why we say "there are no test jobs" and that "if you were not dissatisfied, why not give all fives and not think too much about it". 

Active Member
Yaron E Member Since: Jan 1, 2015
17 of 40

I understand what you're saying, you're trying to work within the system that was set up for you, and that's okay but from a client perspective algorithms, and the way things work within the system, and all these kinds of things are not really important.

 

And I'm saying from a client perspective, The conversation is basically a whole other conversation.

 

I'm glad that this post received a lot of responses. but most of the responses were from freelancers and I understand your side of the story, but the way the system works and the things that need to be done as a freelancer, all these things are nice to know but not so important (For our workflow). In fact all these things should be transparent to the client (and they are), and as a client I want to know that the ranking system actually reflects on the skill. 

 

Bottom line this is a discussion of the workflow for clients, and the way it works now Illogical, (Forcibly stopping a client from Ending a contract) and skews the system for reasons listed before.

 

I hoped for an official response, Since the decision wasn't made by one of the freelancers or the clients, it's a company decision.

 

And since the quality of the freelancer I work with is important to me seeing such an approach made me doubt the system, I think Upwork have noticed that problem as well hence the shift to a different approach.

 

Maybe the problem is that currently the shift is midway, and the starring system still remains Plus the success score at the same time, I just don't know

 

Although I appreciate all the comments made, and wish you the best of luck

It would've been closer to my intent if more clients were to participate and give their perspective, And thoughts about this mandatory step forced on the client.

 

Again best of luck to everyone

Community Guru
Barbara W Member Since: Sep 10, 2015
18 of 40

@Yaron E wrote:

You mean you can't think of any scenario that a job can be considered a test job?  What if me the client thinks that an hour work is not enough to judge a person should I be forced to rank him anyway?

 

And yes it is forced, you cannot end the job, the system doesn't let you.

 

This system forces you to bend backwards to close the job, or give an arbitrary feedback.

 

I was really hoping for an official response, because truly I don't understand the logic behind it

 

 


 I don't think it was being said that there's no such thing as a "test job" - simply that if the hours worked were sufficient enough to determine whether or not you'd hire them, they would also be sufficient enough to tell if they met your expectations.

 

If you chose to hire someone else, and quite obviously don't want to give the person 5-star feedback, then I'd say don't. 3 or 4 stars is still a "positive" outcome from the freelancer, taking into consideration the lack of quality or skill that you're determining.

 

It would be nice if you would discuss with the freelancer why you don't feel that their work was worthy of the full 5 stars - but definitely not mandatory. There's also a place for you to add that directly into the rating, but again, it's not mandatory.

 

You think they did 3-star work, for the job and pay actually offered? Give them 3 stars. But explain why, publicly to their profile, so that it won't hurt their chances of getting jobs that they are more qualified for. Don't think they even deserve that? Have them end the contract for you.

- Barbara Herrera -
Community Guru
Hanna N Member Since: Jun 17, 2015
19 of 40
Yaron,

I do not believe we are really having two separate conversations here, as in the world of freelancing, the contractor and the client are of equal standing. I was trying to explain why the current system works as it does, and it is probably because of the way it affects the freelancer. In fact, the freelancers have very vocally said that as long as client not leaving feedback affects their JSS in a negative way, making feedback should be made mandatory for clients. I am guessing that you are seeing this finally being implemented.

UpWork does already weight client feedback based on the size of the job (or rather, the amount earned from that job), so receiving feedback from small jobs does not really skew the feedback stats. If you gave your freelancer, say, 3 stars, and the next person gave 5, if their job was bigger, their score would be weighted more heavily than your rating.

It is ultimately the client's responsibility to screen through the scope of the freelancer's work history, if the size of the jobs is important to them. You could require the freelancers to have a certain amount of hours under their belt to apply for your jobs, but it is still possible all those hours will come from short jobs instead of long contracts.

If you feel that giving feedback disrupts your workflow, asking for quotes from independent contractors that do not work through platforms might work better for you.
Community Guru
Marcia M Member Since: Apr 3, 2013
20 of 40

The test job "doesn't reflect on any of the person's skills." Then what were you testing for? The point of a test job is to get an idea of how well the contractor can do the main job you are hiring for. I just hired several contractors for a short test job and every one of them received feedback based on how they performed on the test job. If you're making contractors take a test and you're not using the test as a measure of skill, you're just wasting everybody's time, and your money. Please don't tell me you are assigning pointless tasks just to see if freelancers can follow orders, which would be insulting and disrespectful.

TOP KUDOED MEMBERS