๐Ÿˆ Community
ยป Forums ยป Clients ยป Why am I forced to give feedback?
Page options
elh_yaron
Member

Why am I forced to give feedback?

I recently hired a person for a short test job, I emphasize this was only a test job.

It doesn't reflect on any of the persons skills.

 

At the end of the test project I decided not to continue the contract, but quickly realized that I'm forced to give feedback to the person.

 

My question is why am I forced, to give feedback when obviously I don't have enough information to judge the persons skill?

 

My goal, when pressing the button "End Contract", is to close the contract. What I don't understand is why am I getting blocked from the action I want to perform?

 

Actually makes me think about the quality of ranking within the site since, if people are forced to give feedback. Bill just give any feedback, just to pass this stage.

 

Think if this was a real situation in life, of me leaving a store and the security guard stops and tells me that I can't leave the store until I fill out a feedback form, since the company really needs it for the next client that comes in.

 

I'll be happy for a logical response, to this strange treatment of clients

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

39 REPLIES 39
boshoffirene
Member

It is because Upwork penalises a freelancer negatively with their Job scores if a client leaves no, or bad, feedback.

 

It has been an ongoing bone of contention in the freelancer section, as the freelancer's Job score is determined by a robot, which does not take into account situations such as you have described.

As a freelancer, I can say that Irene is 100% correct.

 

If the test job didn't reflect the skills of the freelancer, what was the point? Positive feedback doesn't mean that you have to hire them again, if that's what you're concerned with.

 

If you don't leave feedback, it can negatively impact the freelancer. Not if it only happens once, apparently (Upwork isn't very clear on their algorithms), but at a certain point it's seen as them not following through somehow.

 

If the client didn't do a bad job - is it safe to say they did a good job? And vice versa.

 

If you really can't think of anything to put - may as well put 5 stars, right? You've chosen not to hire them for future work, and your 5-star rating can help them to get a different job. Obviously there's no way anyone else can evaluate the job done for you, but, if it were me, I'd go ahead and give them 5 stars to be nice.

- Barbara Herrera -

I think this is an excellent point raised by a client. Clients may not want to leave feedback for perfectly valid reasons.

 

My first thought was to implement a choice like "not enough data to rate freelancer". Problem is, being aware of this some freelancers might try to get their client use this option in situations where it is not applicable. But then, if freelancers do try, their clients might want to rate them after all?

Hi Barbara,

 

Giving them 5 stars Just beats the whole purpose of a starring system, the job were neither good or bad.

It was just not what I needed,

 

I would argue that 1 hour of work reflects nothing about the skill, and the know-how of a person.

and I should not be forced to give any feedback based on a superficial/nonexistent knowledge of the person's skills.

 

When you make a form feel mandatory, it will just get Filled. it's Like when a site forces you to give out your phone number, or age to perform some action, you just enter something to go to the next step it has no value.

 

In fact it decreases the value for everyone, since if I give him 5 stars for A non-deserving job what does that say about your hard earned 5 stars. and how do I treat the next guy with five stars I see.

 

 

Your reasoning is perfectly valid, Igor, and we have mentioned much of what you say in the freelancer section. Please, take note, the majority of freelancers share your sentiments. But we are also the ones that get penalised when a client leaves no feedback or does not close a contract. We are, unfortunately, the ones that are caught between a rock and a hard place, which is why Barbara, I believe, made her suggestion.

 

 

Yaron, I agree with Barbara, and with you. If really you cannot judge the freelancer's work, what harm could there be in leaving good feedback that is encouraging for the provider? Particularly if you found nothing particularly wrong with the work, and that you simply have simply preferred someone else.

 

On the other hand, if the freelancer's sample, did not come up to the standards of what you required, then you should assess him or her on that premise.

 

Your suggestion should definitely be considered by Upwork. I think a client should be allowed to be neutral, so that a freelancer is not condemned for no feedback. A client irritated by a mandatory form may well check the boxes emotively, which could be extremely detrimental to the freelancer's ratings. 


@Yaron E wrote:

Hi Barbara,

 

Giving them 5 stars Just beats the whole purpose of a starring system, the job were neither good or bad.

It was just not what I needed,

 

I would argue that 1 hour of work reflects nothing about the skill, and the know-how of a person.

and I should not be forced to give any feedback based on a superficial/nonexistent knowledge of the person's skills.

 

When you make a form feel mandatory, it will just get Filled. it's Like when a site forces you to give out your phone number, or age to perform some action, you just enter something to go to the next step it has no value.

 

In fact it decreases the value for everyone, since if I give him 5 stars for A non-deserving job what does that say about your hard earned 5 stars. and how do I treat the next guy with five stars I see.

 


 I definitely understand what you're saying. I work hard for my 5-star feedback, and it does seem a little silly to give them frivolously to others. All I'm saying is that if there's nothing wrong with the work, you essentially got a 5-star job. Upwork weighs these scores based on their dollar value when calculating their job success score. That is, a 5-star on a one-hour contract wouldn't lift the contract nearly as much as, say, a 3-star contract on a 10-hour project would drop them. The specific algorithm isn't transparent to us as freelancers, or to you as clients, all I know is that if we get no feedback, it negatively affects us after some time. Any feedback that isn't negative, is basically a good thing for us.

- Barbara Herrera -
claudiacezy
Member

Yaron,
there is no such thing as test job. Did the freelancer complete the job based on your requirements? Did it meet your expectations? This is what the feedback/rate is for. You are not rating a freelancer's skills for mowing the lawn if that wasnt in your job description.


You have reasons to have doubts about rating because it doesnt sound like the freelancer met your expectations. Back in your mind you might think that maybe that freelancer work would just do it for someone else....


You can tell the freelancer that if you were to give a rating, it will not be a 5* but you will mention in the feedback it was just not what you needed.


You are not forced to leave a feedback if the freelancer closes the job.


So, you can ask the freelancer to choose between the two ...

You mean you can't think of any scenario that a job can be considered a test job?  What if me the client thinks that an hour work is not enough to judge a person should I be forced to rank him anyway?

 

And yes it is forced, you cannot end the job, the system doesn't let you.

 

This system forces you to bend backwards to close the job, or give an arbitrary feedback.

 

I was really hoping for an official response, because truly I don't understand the logic behind it

 

 

The system doesnt recognize the tests differently then any other job. Its still considered a job for which you payed someone to do something.


I agree, the clients should not be forced to rate the freelancer when they close the job. You are not forced to write a feedback, you can leave that emtpy.

Don't over-think this.

 

If, as a client, you hire a contractor for a short test job, and then you need to close the contract, and you don't want to take time to think about the feedback... Just leave the free-form feedback comments blank and give the contractor all fives.

 

Okay, maybe that skews things. I don't know. But a client has that choice. If a client doesn't want to take time to think about a contractor's work, perhaps because the client spent very little time with the contractor, or for any other reason, then simply providing 5-star feedback and positive private feedback is a harmless way to close things off with the contractor.

 

I would prefer that clients spend a little time thinking about their interaction with the contractor and providing accurate, honest feedback.

 

But if they can't do that, then giving positive feedback is a better alternative than not closing the contract.

Yes, But as far as I know these systems are designed by humans, that means that somebody decided to make it this way.

 

The few first hours with a Freelancer, are times that you are still examining if the relationship is right for both of you. not only technically but at multiple levels. you might be a fit technically but personally you're not on the same wave.

 

And really it's too early to tell, and shouldn't be forced.

I have to say, I have never encountered on the web or otherwise a situation where I am forced to judge a person on a whim just for the sake of giving feedback. 

 

And when I say feedback, is't either by stars or text, since both of them are feedback, one is verbally in the other by a scale.

 


@Yaron E wrote:

Yes, But as far as I know these systems are designed by humans, that means that somebody decided to make it this way.

 

The few first hours with a Freelancer, are times that you are still examining if the relationship is right for both of you. not only technically but at multiple levels. you might be a fit technically but personally you're not on the same wave.

 

And really it's too early to tell, and shouldn't be forced.

I have to say, I have never encountered on the web or otherwise a situation where I am forced to judge a person on a whim just for the sake of giving feedback. 

 

And when I say feedback, is't either by stars or text, since both of them are feedback, one is verbally in the other by a scale.

 


If they were a good fit technically, but you didn't have meshing personalities, as you mentioned in this post...

 

...why would you ding them for being high-quality but not a good personal match? This is a professional site, not a dating site; their personal match with you shouldn't factor into how you rate their work.

 

You can even give them 5-star feedback and then mention that their vision didn't align with yours, if that's the case.

 

Or you can take one of the countless other bits of advice the people in this thread have given you on the subject, until such a point where Upwork decides to abandon the JSS and the feedback is no longer mandatory.

 

(FWIW, many freelancers have discussed the ability for clients to receive job success/communication scores as well. Imagine if your freelancers could drop your job success by refusing to leave feedback! Then imagine how the freelancers feel if you choose to do the same to them - which you do currently have the power to do.) 

- Barbara Herrera -

"Yes, But as far as I know these systems are designed by humans, that means that somebody decided to make it this way."

 

Yes, they did make it this way, but they did not think it through. I think as you do, that there ought to be neutral ground for paid tests, but non-awarded jobs

 

"The few first hours with a Freelancer, are times that you are still examining if the relationship is right for both of you. not only technically but at multiple levels. you might be a fit technically but personally you're not on the same wave."

 

Absolutely. But given the way the system is set up at the moment, give the freelancer the benefit of the doubt. He or she might not be on your wavelength, but could be on the same wavelength as another client. 

 

And really it's too early to tell, and shouldn't be forced.

I have to say, I have never encountered on the web or otherwise a situation where I am forced to judge a person on a whim just for the sake of giving feedback. 

 

All we can hope for is for this thread to be 'shared' with the head honchos. You should not be forced. It is totally unprofessional and it puts both potential client and potential freelancer in a completely false light, as well as harming a freelancer's earning potential.

 

"And when I say feedback, is't either by stars or text, since both of them are feedback, one is verbally in the other by a scale."

 

I don't think there is a freelancer who would disagree with you - send your concerns  to the CEO personally. I am not joking.

Yaron, if you feel that you don't have enough data to rate the freelancer based on a short test job, please consider this scenario:

 

The algorithms on UpWork require a freelancer to have five feedbacks before they calculate a Job Success Score for the freelancer. JSS is the only thing that is now shown with our proposals, and you need a JSS of atleast 90% to become Top Rated. If all my clients would have thought that a couple of hours work is not worth rating, then my job history would have this feedback pattern:

 

My first job took me 20 minutes. (no feedback)

 

My second one took me 40 minutes. (no feedback)

 

Third one took a couple of days. (1)

 

Fourth work was for the same client as the third one, took about an hour. (No feedback)

 

Fifth one took two hours. (No feedback)

 

6th one took me four hours, but I do not have feedback on it as the client wanted to keep the contract open in case he needs me for something else. 

 

7th one was my first hourly contract. If the client would not have decided to give me a raise, this contract would still be ongoing, and I would not have feedback on it before it ended.

 

8th one took me 40 minutes. (no feedback)

 

9th one  took me about 10 hours. (2nd feedback)

 

10th job took me 4 hours. (feedback 3)

 

11th took me 40 minutes. Also, the client never closed the contract. (no feedback)

 

12th took me an hour. The client gave me more work, which took me 40 minutes. The client also left the contract open for future needs, so no feedback before she closes it.

 

13th took me 3 hours, but the client left the job open for future needs, so no feedback before the contract is closed.

 

14th took me 40 minutes. (no feedback)

 

15th  took me 2 hours. (no feedback)

 

16th is an ongoing contract that I won't get feedback on before it is closed, and that should not happen for months, maybe even years.

 

 

Basically, in my case, if my clients had thought that they did not have enough data on me to rate my skills based on a couple of hours work, I would still have no JSS score, which would have made me ineligible for the Top Rated badge I received last week, and all the perks and highlighting that goes with it. While I am sure that most of the freelancers here do not work only on short jobs, there are also a lot of us who do, and if short jobs were not considered feedback-worthy, that would put us in a very unfavorable situation. Also, as all of us have to start from somewhere, those first few feedbacks can make or break a budding freelancer's career here - especially since many clients do not want to be in the situation where they have to be the ones to take a gamble on the untested contractors. 

 

I sincerely understand your precidament, as I would never want to pester a client to leave me feedback - not only do I feel that it is unprofessional, I also think it has a very untasteful flavour of begging. But the way this websites' algorithms have been built, it has become necessary for the freelancers here, which is why we say "there are no test jobs" and that "if you were not dissatisfied, why not give all fives and not think too much about it". 

I understand what you're saying, you're trying to work within the system that was set up for you, and that's okay but from a client perspective algorithms, and the way things work within the system, and all these kinds of things are not really important.

 

And I'm saying from a client perspective, The conversation is basically a whole other conversation.

 

I'm glad that this post received a lot of responses. but most of the responses were from freelancers and I understand your side of the story, but the way the system works and the things that need to be done as a freelancer, all these things are nice to know but not so important (For our workflow). In fact all these things should be transparent to the client (and they are), and as a client I want to know that the ranking system actually reflects on the skill. 

 

Bottom line this is a discussion of the workflow for clients, and the way it works now Illogical, (Forcibly stopping a client from Ending a contract) and skews the system for reasons listed before.

 

I hoped for an official response, Since the decision wasn't made by one of the freelancers or the clients, it's a company decision.

 

And since the quality of the freelancer I work with is important to me seeing such an approach made me doubt the system, I think Upwork have noticed that problem as well hence the shift to a different approach.

 

Maybe the problem is that currently the shift is midway, and the starring system still remains Plus the success score at the same time, I just don't know

 

Although I appreciate all the comments made, and wish you the best of luck

It would've been closer to my intent if more clients were to participate and give their perspective, And thoughts about this mandatory step forced on the client.

 

Again best of luck to everyone


@Yaron E wrote:

You mean you can't think of any scenario that a job can be considered a test job?  What if me the client thinks that an hour work is not enough to judge a person should I be forced to rank him anyway?

 

And yes it is forced, you cannot end the job, the system doesn't let you.

 

This system forces you to bend backwards to close the job, or give an arbitrary feedback.

 

I was really hoping for an official response, because truly I don't understand the logic behind it

 

 


 I don't think it was being said that there's no such thing as a "test job" - simply that if the hours worked were sufficient enough to determine whether or not you'd hire them, they would also be sufficient enough to tell if they met your expectations.

 

If you chose to hire someone else, and quite obviously don't want to give the person 5-star feedback, then I'd say don't. 3 or 4 stars is still a "positive" outcome from the freelancer, taking into consideration the lack of quality or skill that you're determining.

 

It would be nice if you would discuss with the freelancer why you don't feel that their work was worthy of the full 5 stars - but definitely not mandatory. There's also a place for you to add that directly into the rating, but again, it's not mandatory.

 

You think they did 3-star work, for the job and pay actually offered? Give them 3 stars. But explain why, publicly to their profile, so that it won't hurt their chances of getting jobs that they are more qualified for. Don't think they even deserve that? Have them end the contract for you.

- Barbara Herrera -
noirre
Member

Yaron,

I do not believe we are really having two separate conversations here, as in the world of freelancing, the contractor and the client are of equal standing. I was trying to explain why the current system works as it does, and it is probably because of the way it affects the freelancer. In fact, the freelancers have very vocally said that as long as client not leaving feedback affects their JSS in a negative way, making feedback should be made mandatory for clients. I am guessing that you are seeing this finally being implemented.

UpWork does already weight client feedback based on the size of the job (or rather, the amount earned from that job), so receiving feedback from small jobs does not really skew the feedback stats. If you gave your freelancer, say, 3 stars, and the next person gave 5, if their job was bigger, their score would be weighted more heavily than your rating.

It is ultimately the client's responsibility to screen through the scope of the freelancer's work history, if the size of the jobs is important to them. You could require the freelancers to have a certain amount of hours under their belt to apply for your jobs, but it is still possible all those hours will come from short jobs instead of long contracts.

If you feel that giving feedback disrupts your workflow, asking for quotes from independent contractors that do not work through platforms might work better for you.
marciamalory
Member

The test job "doesn't reflect on any of the person's skills." Then what were you testing for? The point of a test job is to get an idea of how well the contractor can do the main job you are hiring for. I just hired several contractors for a short test job and every one of them received feedback based on how they performed on the test job. If you're making contractors take a test and you're not using the test as a measure of skill, you're just wasting everybody's time, and your money. Please don't tell me you are assigning pointless tasks just to see if freelancers can follow orders, which would be insulting and disrespectful.

kochubei_valeria
Community Manager
Community Manager

Hi Yaron and others,

 

Thank you for having this conversation and sharing your feedback and opinions. I will definitely forward it to the team. We ask the party that closes the contract to provide feedback and encourage the other party to do it as well, because it helps to build trust on the marketplace and motivates freelancers to improve and develop their careers. We do take performance and communication very seriously regardless of the volume of work and that's why we value honest feeback and display it on public profiles in the form of star rating and the Job Success score. 

~ Valeria
Upwork

HI Valeria,

 

T

and thanks to everybody else that expressed their opinion.

 


@Yaron E wrote:

I recently hired a person for a short test job, I emphasize this was only a test job.

It doesn't reflect on any of the persons skills.

 

My question is why am I forced, to give feedback when obviously I don't have enough information to judge the persons skill?

 

 

 

 


You are contradicting yourself here. You created a job that was not to "reflect on any of the person's skills", but then state: "obviously I don't have enough information to judge the person's skill". Now you are upset that feedback is required?

 

You closed the contract. How much time were you giving the person to jump through the hoop for nothing? 

 

Whenever I see "test job", I think "not a serious client; red flag". 

You agreed to the UW terms when you signed up.  Nothing strange about it. 

marciamalory
Member

There's nothing wrong with a test job in itself, as long as it's paid for and it actually tests for the relevant skills. Before I hire you to translate a whole ebook from English to German, let's see how well you can translate a few paragraphs or a page.

d732fc20
Member

The system might be wrong. However, if  a client is forced to give a feedback, why a client should think more about not damaging freelancer's ranking but not about helping other clients and good freelancers by providing an honest feedback? If a job was a test and you didn't like the performance, give a 1-star and write about it. Other clients will consider your feedback. Giving a 5-star feedback to someone who deserved none is unfair to other freelancers, who are excellent.

Do teachers grade students at A+ in order to help them to find a  job?

One reason not to leave a feedback is that a freelancer "might not be on your wavelength, but could be on the same wavelength as another clientโ€œ as Nichola said.  I give a 5-star and pay anyway.  I don't like to damage his/her rating, because my job was too difficult to a freelancer. But I feel bad that I am forced to lie. A job is actually not done correctly and I need to find someone else for the same job. It is difficult to find someone else if I don't trust the ranking system? Elance was more obvious and helpful to a client in this respect.

I agree with Yaron  and Nichola L:
"... a client should be allowed to be neutral, so that a freelancer is not condemned for no feedback. A client irritated by a mandatory form may well check the boxes emotively, which could be extremely detrimental to the freelancer's ratings."

My advice to a client:
1. Divide a large job by small stages and pay for these stages. Every stage can become a โ€œtestโ€ in a complex project. Never  put total amount for a whole job in an escrow. Always take time to inspect  the result.


2. Be honest in ranking. Help another client!  I had many freelancers asking me for 5-star. After reading this post, I decided to change my attitude and to be honest in order to help a Client and to be fair to really good freelancers.


@tanya s wrote:

The system might be wrong. However, if  a client is forced to give a feedback, why a client should think more about not damaging freelancer's ranking but not about helping other clients and good freelancers by providing an honest feedback? If a job was a test and you didn't like the performance, give a 1-star and write about it. Other clients will consider your feedback. Giving a 5-star feedback to someone who deserved none is unfair to other freelancers, who are excellent.

Do teachers grade students at A+ in order to help them to find a  job?


 Tanya,

 

I don't believe all test jobs should be marked low. I gave a guy a 5 star the other day for a job he did and it was not what I was looking for. He had good communication, delivered on time, did a good job at what I ask him to do but the writing was not the style I was looking for. It was a test job and I paid for it. He did not deserve to be marked down because "I" didn't hire him for a longer project. It just was not what I was looking for.

 

Yes teachers give A+ to students when they might not have deserved it. It may be for effort, or how they struggled or otherwise.

 

I do believe if someone was bad at communicating, was late with the work, or did a crappy job completely it should be marked honestly. The reason for the JSS and us being forced to ask our clients to close a contract and leave feedback is due to the system was abused in the past.

 

The problem with the system now is it is still open for abuse. From both sides.

evetodew
Member

I've been quite vocal about the 'no feedback' issue. Either a freelancer is good or bad, OR, just like Yaron says, the client can be neutral. How is it possible that a neutral feedback (or no feedback) suddenly becomes bad for the freelancer and in reality hurts their profile? It's mind-boggling.

 

Yes, we all know the reasoning behind receiving feedback - ensure trust, keeping our profiles well-maintained and striving for perfection (100% JSS), etc. But in reality, if a client is really neutral about a freelancer, he or she should just remain neutral, no matter how many hours s/he spent with the freelancer. Pay the freelancer for the job, and farewell. No strings attached. Heck, the client may just be done with it and move on. Not everyone has opinions about everyone else. I'm neutral about some of my clients.

 

Unfortunately, in Upwork's world the lack of feedback is BAD! Bad freelancer! Here's an F for you!

 

Talk to me about Upwork logic. More and more do I feel like an employee here, who's constantly trying to please the Big Green Boss just so I get a candy in the form of a 5-star rating or some good feedback. Every time I close a contract I'm honestly afraid that the client may leave something nasty (although they've been nice to me all the time), or leave nothing. Not to mention the private feedback. It does feel like waiting for exam results! Pffff... Don;t you just hate it! ๐Ÿ™‚

 

Yet I never beg for feedback even if that fully ruins my profile! It's been said many times, it's super unprofessional! But the fact that freelancers are forced to be successful and still have that feedback means that (my guess is) many ARE actually pleading for feedback. 'Please, sir, leave me some feedback, please, PLEASE!!', it's almost like a street beggar asking for money. Seriously?

 

I am very very sorry I didn't start freelancing earlier, in the good old oDesk days, when there weren't such strict rules. There used to be bad freelancers and good freelancers. Today we have the glossy JSS and other new metrics, and there are still bad freelancers and good freelancers. If anyone can help me see how these rules, metrics and so on help us all getting better, you're golden!

 

P.S. I so wish that Upwork would reconsider the negative weight of the 'No feedback' scenario.

babzward
Member

I spoke with CS about this today and was assured that a lack of feedback will only affect us if it represents the MAJORITY of our contracts, as it gives the impression that the freelancer is nothing special. I agree with this I suppose.

They also assured me that, if a client has multiple contracts with a freelancer, and only leaves feedback for the last one, the score will also be applied to the previous contracts as a rehire assumes satisfaction, and they give us the benefit of the doubt that we have been consistent.

Hope this helps someone - it was reassuring to me.
- Barbara Herrera -

Thanks Barbara! 

 

I think that no feedback shouldn't reflect poorly on the freelancer..period. 

The freelancer could have been more special than God and the client still wouldn't want to leave feedback in many cases. That shouldn't be held against the freelancer.

 

Upwork has got to come better than that. 

This is a terrible system and  reason to stop using Upwork.  If I don't feel I can assess someone's skills I should not be forced to choose between  hruting them and providing bad information to future employers.


Deborah W wrote:

This is a terrible system and  reason to stop using Upwork.  If I don't feel I can assess someone's skills I should not be forced to choose between  hruting them and providing bad information to future employers.


Then don't close the contract. Let the freelancer do it, then you don't have to leave feedback = Problem solved.

msublette
Member

Hi Yaron -

Another reason to go ahead and give feedback is that freelancers also gets to give feedback.  While they can't see your feedback until they give theirs, they do still get to rate you, test job or not.  Freelancers will not consider your job "only a test," and will evaluate it for what it was.

 

On top of that, when freelancers look at job posts, they can see all of the feedback and ratings that a client gives other freelancers.  If a client has a history of not leaving feedback or giving very poor feedback in general, you may start to have trouble finding good freelancers to bid on your projects. 

 

I always look that the client's feedback from freelancers and the feedback that the client gives freelancers.  I look to see if a client is being unreasonable or too picky.  I look to see of the client has been respectful of the freelancer.  Like it or not, this is how the system works right now.  If for only your personal and ongoing benefit, you should leave the freelancer feedback.  And if you think the freelancer completed the job successfully, with the skills you hired him for, communicated with you in effeciently and in the way you preferred (that might be no communication), the the freelancer deserves 5 stars in my opinion. 

 

Michelle

Upwork clients should understand that they CAN CLOSE A JOB WITHOUT LEAVING FEEDBACK.

 

If a client does not have enough information about a freelancer to make a judgement, or if the client simply does not want to leave feedback for any reason, then they do NOT need to leave feedback.

 

Click 5 for the category star ratings, without thinking about these at all.

And leave the freeform text field BLANK.

 

This is the SAME THING as not leaving feedback.

 

I have personally done this as a client.

 

If you do this, and don't think about it, then it is equivalent to not leaving feedback. There is nothing wrong with doing this, and there is no reason to feel bad or guilty about this.

While this is an old post, Interesting that it got a revised interest. I made this post a few years ago, since then I can tell you that I'v talked to a lot of employers that work with Upwork and we all seem to arrive at the same conclusion, that is inevitable when a mandatory system is present. 

 

I've wrote this post in the past to describe the issue, and the inevitability of forced statistics.

and while I do respect the discussion among freelancers, it's not really the right level of discussion, the discussion about the reliability of forced statistics should be in a way higher levels in the latter, maybe an open-minded person that leads the research department in the company.

 

Within the freelancer level of discussion there could be 
1. Restrained anger (You also work here, so can't really have a candid discussion)

2. Descriptions of ways to bypass

3. Agreement and acceptance of the system as it is

It is nice, but it is what it is, the people that should have this discussion and have the ability to do anything about it are not a part of it.

 

"--while I do respect the discussion among freelancers, it's not really the right level of discussion, the discussion about the reliability of forced statistics should be in a way higher levels in the latter, maybe an open-minded person that leads the research department in the company."

Please be mindful that freelancers do not work for UpWork. We are here as clients, same as you - we buy UpWork's services of payment protection, easy invoicing and networking opportunities in exchange for a percentage of what we invoice our clients. We are business owners, and as sole traders, we are the leads research department of our companies. What is but a mild annoyance to you is an actual marketing nightmare for us. 

 

Imagine your company had a Success Score on its frontpage. Now imagine if a percentage of every customer you've had that did not leave a review on Google, SiteJabber or Yelp! would cause that number to go down. That is what freelancers deal with on UpWork.

 

So while I agree that the people that have the ability to do something about this are not (at least visibly) part of the discussion, it is incredibly inaccurate to say that freelancers should not have this discussion or are not on the right 'level' to have it. This is us giving customer feedback to UpWork, fervently hoping that at some point they'll heed it. 

Hanna: I agree with the points you made in your post.

 

But one recomendation about terminology...

 

re: "Please be mindful that freelancers do not work for UpWork. We are here as clients, same as you"

 

If a person hires freelancers on Upwork and pays them, then she is a client. Her credit card or PayPal account are charged and Upwork collects a fee.

 

If a person works for others through Upwork, she is a freelancer.

 

Some people are both.

 

Using Upwork's services does not make a person a "client."

 

If a freelancer really wants to, they may think of themselves as an Upwork "customer" or Upwork "user."

 

But it is not helpful to equate "client" and "freelancer" in a way that suggests they are the same thing.

Both freelancers and clients are UpWork's clients, customers, service users, subscribers, whatever word you want to use. When it comes to the relationship with UpWork, 'clients' - as you defined them - are in no way more important, primary, or independent in relation to UpWork than 'freelancers'. You insisting on a separation of terminology based on whose card gets charged suggests you did not understand my main point at all, so I am not sure what you are actually agreeing with. 

Just as a matter of clarification:

Clients and freelancers are both important to Upwork.

But each individual client is much more important to Upwork than an individual freelancer.

 

Each client is a valuable source of revenue for Upwork, and Upwork actively tries to gain new clients and retain existing clients.

 

Upwork has multiple programs designed to limit the numbers of freelancers, cull and eliminate non-performing existing freelancers, and prevent many people who would like to be freelancers from joining the platform as such.

That is frankly just bollocks. UpWork's most important customers are those that bring in the most money, just like to any other business. A client that spends south of a million on hiring will not do so here if they do not find talent worth paying for, and in the end, the one that pays higher fees to UpWork for the use of the platform is actually the freelancer - especially after the upcoming changes. While it may be the freelancers being outraged, making connects cost money is a big middle finger to clients with small projects, as their project budgets will make applying for their jobs unappealing from now on. 

 

You really need to stop putting clients on a pedestal, and you especially need to stop insisting on this divide. The platform is worse off for it.


Preston H wrote:

Just as a matter of clarification:

Clients and freelancers are both important to Upwork.

But each individual client is much more important to Upwork than an individual freelancer.

 

Each client is a valuable source of revenue for Upwork, and Upwork actively tries to gain new clients and retain existing clients.

 

Upwork has multiple programs designed to limit the numbers of freelancers, cull and eliminate non-performing existing freelancers, and prevent many people who would like to be freelancers from joining the platform as such.


This is insane. Freelancers are not at all "less important". Clients can bring all sorts of money to the platform but if no one is there to do great work, there is no revenue (or repeat revenue).  Yes, Upwork has programs to designed to limit the number of freelancers but this is for unqualified or poorly performing freelancers. Upwork also is trying to limit the number of scam clients  and fake/illegal jobs. On this platform, one can't work without the other. You devaluing freelancers is part of the problem, not a solution to really... anything.