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a1654756
Community Member

Why does upwork have so many liars and fake freelancers??

I have tried to hire coders on Upwork because of their nearly-perfect client reviews. I have manged to interview about 20+ coders with great ratings and reviews but i was shocked to discover that many of them could not answer my questions in english correctly.

 

For example:

 

Me: How old are you?

Coder from Upwork: 5 years in PHP

 

Me: How old are you?

Coder from Upwork: I know PHP for 5 years. 

 

Their glowing client reviews were all written in english but the freelancers seemed to have much difficulty in communicating in english. 

 

Why does upwork have so many liars and fake freelancers??

60 REPLIES 60
yitwail
Community Member

They’re only liars in this case if their profile English level is set to conversational or above. If their profile overview is written at a decent level of literacy, then you might want to google it to see if they copied the profile from elsewhere, in which case you can flag their profile for plagiarism. By the way, I’m a coder with great reviews but I’m not telling you how old I am. That’s between me and Upwork.
__________________________________________________
"No good deed goes unpunished." -- Clare Boothe Luce
a1654756
Community Member

Its not about the age, its about being able to answer basic questions correctly. 

 

tlbp
Community Member

Well, now we know why freelancer have been posting about getting strange questions from prospective clients. 

 

OP, if you are going to use a screening question, perhaps choose one that a rational business person would be willing to answer. 

prestonhunter
Community Member

If you are interested in hiring only freelancers who speak English fluently, then you have a right to talk to them before you hire them, as you have done, to ascertain whether or not they can.

 

But I agree that having a well-written, grammatically correct profile does not make a person a fake or a liar if they themselves are not fluent in English. We often advise freelancers with poor English language skills to write a profile overview in their own language and then have a skilled translator translate it into English.

 

Personally, I have often hired freelancers who speak little or no English, and have had great success as a client, receiving high-quality work from such freelancers. Many types of work do NOT require English language fluency. Graphic arts are a great example. If an artist can understand a written project description, or have somebody else translate it and explain it to her, then it does not matter if she speaks English.

 

There are effective ways to structure a job so that communications between client and freelancer are minimized. This can be applied to programming tasks as well.

I am going to guess that their rates were probably $15/hr or less.

Scott B, 

 

 

Are you suggesting that freelancers who charge less than $15 per hour are not worth hiring even though they have GREATE client ratings? Or are you saying that freelancers who charge lower rates must have fake ratings? Are you saying that freelancers who charge very high rates must have truthful and accurate client ratings?

 

The problem is not about how much they charge per hour, its about their ratings that are meant to be accurate and truethful regardless of the money they charge on Upwork. 

petra_r
Community Member


@Shane F wrote:

Scott B, 

 

 

Are you suggesting that freelancers who charge less than $15 per hour are not worth hiring even though they have GREATE client ratings? Or are you saying that freelancers who charge lower rates must have fake ratings? Are you saying that freelancers who charge very high rates must have truthful and accurate client ratings?


 No, he is suggesting that you get what you pay for and if you have a very low budget there will be compromises along the way. One of those compromises may be that you will have to spend a little more time communicating because the freelancer doesn't speak English very well. If you need a native English speaker, hire a coder from a country where English is the native language. Of course you then have to pay first word rates.

 

Likely those freelancers have great reviews because the other clients were aware of the basic fact that you get what you pay for in business, and that the freelancers did what they were hired to do to a standard in line with the payment they received.

a1654756
Community Member

Petra R, 

 

As a comunity guru, are you hired to bring more confusion to the discussion?? Your explanation makes NO logical sense. According to your logic Upwork should set a high budget requirement and force everyone to pay more money so that potential clients would have access to better and more accurate client reviews. You talk nonesense. 

 

Client reviews are meant to be truthful and accurate. But what you are saying is that since some freelancers charge low rates, their prefect reviews might not accurately reflect their REAL abilities. This means MORE efforts are needed to ensure your low-budget projects could get done by a low-rates freelancer who you believe would be competent for the project (because of their glowing reviews). 

 

Charging low rates and having fake or inaccurate client reviews are two different issues, do you not get it?

AveryO
Community Manager
Community Manager

I'm sorry to learn about your experience, Shane. If you have more evidence that you would like to share, please send me details of these freelancers through a private message so that I can have the team look into their accounts further. 


~ Avery
Upwork
a1654756
Community Member

Thank you, i am willing to help you with identifying possible/potential fake freelancers from Upwork

Shane, you've got the process kind of backwards in looking at reviews. I ignore them unless there is a pattern such as repeated poor quality. And, a 5.0 with no narrative is worth far less than a 4.2 with a real, positive, narrative. No-narrative reviews are lazy. The 4.2, or even 3.7, was written by someone who appreciated the freelancer and his/her work.

 

I have great success with zero-record freelancers. I don't hire coders with laundry lists of platforms, languages, apps. I hire coders who understand business. Fortunately, I'm not limited to English when hiring coders, and half of mine have spoken little English.

 

There's another solution. My former partner made a living hiring on internet boards for her clients. Finding someone qualified to do this isn't easy, in part because it's not a listed skill, and the best ones are both clients and providers, but there's no way on UW to figure this out.

Bill, sometimes when a client has English as a 2, 3, or 4th language, leaving a written comment in the review section is a challenge. 

 

I've been asked by non-native English speaking clients to proof comments before they post them.  Just food for thought.

Bill H,

 

I understand what you are saying and i have hired people with no reviews or work history. 

A good programmer isn't just someone who can write code, but more importantly its a person who can understand and execute his/her client's instructions correctly. Of course, the "instructions" i am referring to were all written in english.

 

Client reviews are meant to be "reasonablly" accurate and truthful, otherwise what would be the point of having reivews at all?

 

I think to resolve this problem we could report a possible or potentially fake freelancer to an Upwork staff member or post his / her identity on the Upwork community forum. 

 

 

 

 

Update: 

 

So I wrote the below (which I will leave just in case I got this wrong) and then read yet again the OP. Are you actually saying that you are looking at how the freelancer wrote the review to the client as means of picking freelancers? You mentioned glowing "client reviews" which I thought meant reviews from clients because I don't think I have ever heard someone talk about how the freelancer reviewed the client. If so, you can copy/paste platitudes from anywhere and UW even gives examples people could simply use. This doesn't make someone a fraud either. So whether it's this or the below, I don't think you have a case on these specific grounds.

---------------

 

To be clear, you are saying that because a freelancer received great reviews from clients, even if that freelancer does not have a good command of English, that the freelancer must be a fraud? In other words no reasonable English speaker in good conscious could possibly give a freelancer without good English, positive marks? You have credible clients on this thread telling you that they have given positive reviews to freelancers who did not speak good English. Are they frauds as well?

 

You have an issue if the freelancer profile indicates the person is fluent in English but they are not. You have an issue if the freelancer lists skills and experiences that they don't actually have. These are legitimate issues that should be raised with Upwork. You, however, don't have a legitimate issue if a freelancer receives positive reviews from other clients just because you think they may not have deserved it. The one exception might be if the review indicates that the person communicated perfectly in English when that is obviously not the case. Otherwise it isn't for you to say what another client should or should not feel about the quality of work they hired for of which you had nothing to do with. 

Scott B, 

 

Two things:

 

1. I did not say fraud. However i do feel that some of the freelancer's activities COULD be fraudulent or at least deceptive, possibly from the legal standpoint of cosumer protection, false advertising and deceptive conduct. Btw, i am not a lawyer so my "feel" could be wrong. 

 

2. Okay i dont have a case on anything, i get it. 

petra_r
Community Member

Shane, bottom line:

 

Considering that you didn't hire any of them, you can't possibly know whether the work those people did for their previous clients was great or not.

 

Jumping to the conclusion that someone is fake because they have good feedback and speak poor English is ludicrous.

 

mensahkontoh
Community Member

Not being able to express yourself perfectly in English does not make you a liar or fake freelancer unless the skill you require relates to English.

There are experienced coders who can't express themeselves well in english but do well when it comes to coding.

I think you should have given them a problem to code instead testing them in English if that is not part of your requirement.

Mensah S,

 

I've said it in one of my previous posts:

 

"A good programmer isn't just someone who can write code, but more importantly its a person who can understand and execute his/her client's instructions correctly. Of course, the "instructions" i am referring to were all written in english."

martina_plaschka
Community Member


@Shane F wrote:

I have tried to hire coders on Upwork because of their nearly-perfect client reviews. I have manged to interview about 20+ coders with great ratings and reviews but i was shocked to discover that many of them could not answer my questions in english correctly.

 

For example:

 

Me: How old are you?

Coder from Upwork: 5 years in PHP

 

Me: How old are you?

Coder from Upwork: I know PHP for 5 years. 

 

Their glowing client reviews were all written in english but the freelancers seemed to have much difficulty in communicating in english. 

 

Why does upwork have so many liars and fake freelancers??


 From your description, I sort of suspect the freelancers you were talking to thought your English was bad and gave you the answer they thought you were looking for. 

Because asking for their age is inappropriate and strange. 

What's age goto do with it...What's age, but a sweet old-fashioned notion....

This is actually a non-problem. Because

a) any sane person would reply to a question about their age with "sorry, this has nothing to do with the issue at hand" (or similar) in a business context, and

b) this is exactly why companies are spending millions on developing free and widely accessible translation programs and databases (Reverso, Linguee, Google Translate, DeepL,...) -- for people from different cultures to communicate with each other. (Those programs are all crap for general and special translation tasks unsless you're after collecting some real howlers, but they do well enough in simple tasks.)

 

I would certainly hire a freelancer not perfect in English, but I would NOT hire someone who fails to communicate with me. This is not kindergarten.

gbalint
Community Member

As a software developer whose native language isn't English, but I can speak it better than some Americans (that was what my first client said the first time we've voice-chatted back in 2006), I can say:

 

  • knowing English is paramount in software. All API documentations, all framework docs, everything is in English. And everything we write is, in turn, in English. All meetings are in English. Everything. When somebody doesn't understand a simple question or is unable to dodge it in a polite manner, then there is a problem;
  • when constructing software there are misunderstandings between two native speakers of English. Imagine the level of misunderstanding when the parties have English as a second/third language.
  • I only recommend hiring based on the language level. Coding skills can be taught. I will not waste my time to teach somebody English then programming (because most of the time they don't know programming no matter how many tens of years of software writing experience they tell they have)


@Gabriel B wrote:

As a software developer whose native language isn't English, but I can speak it better than some Americans (that was what my first client said the first time we've voice-chatted back in 2006), I can say:

 

  • knowing English is paramount in software. All API documentations, all framework docs, everything is in English. And everything we write is, in turn, in English. All meetings are in English. Everything. When somebody doesn't understand a simple question or is unable to dodge it in a polite manner, then there is a problem;
  • when constructing software there are misunderstandings between two native speakers of English. Imagine the level of misunderstanding when the parties have English as a second/third language.
  • I only recommend hiring based on the language level. Coding skills can be taught. I will not waste my time to teach somebody English then programming (because most of the time they don't know programming no matter how many tens of years of software writing experience they tell they have)

 __________________________________

 

It is true that there are a lot of false freelancer profiles (particularly those that exaggerate their language skills), but you have missed the point. There are other simple questions you can ask. Asking someone's age might be a simple question, but it is also loaded and has nothing to do with how one does a job. At your level, you should also be able to judge a freelancer's English from their proposals. 

Monkey wrench time.  I find this thread so unbelievably incorrect it horrifies me.

 

Using a real-life example:

1. Client is a native English speaker with no 2ndary language

2. Designer/UX person has English as a third language.  I only wish my 2nd language was 1/10 as good as the individual's 3rd language.

3, Coder is Indian and has English as a 2nd or 3rd language

4. Writer (me) is native English with a smattering of Spanish and French 

Plus other people involved on an ancillary basis > none of whom have English as a first language

 

Solution:

First and foremost: A Client who hires based on talent and professionalism.

A client who says and means it: "Ask if you aren't sure of what I mean/want"

 

2nd in importance:

Group communications: I often play go-between as needed > esp. when the source of the communique is not native Englsh speaking/writing.

 

 Side note: Age, sex, religion, etc. etc. have absolutely nothing to do with anything.

 

 

 

 

 


@wendy_writes wrote:

Monkey wrench time.  I find this thread so unbelievably incorrect it horrifies me.

 

Using a real-life example:

1. Client is a native English speaker with no 2ndary language

2. Designer/UX person has English as a third language.  I only wish my 2nd language was 1/10 as good as the individual's 3rd language.

3, Coder is Indian and has English as a 2nd or 3rd language

4. Writer (me) is native English with a smattering of Spanish and French 

Plus other people involved on an ancillary basis > none of whom have English as a first language

 

Solution:

First and foremost: A Client who hires based on talent and professionalism.

A client who says and means it: "Ask if you aren't sure of what I mean/want"

 

2nd in importance:

Group communications: I often play go-between as needed > esp. when the source of the communique is not native Englsh speaking/writing.

 

 Side note: Age, sex, religion, etc. etc. have absolutely nothing to do with anything.

 

 

 

Abbey Lives!


Now if I were only syndicated ... 😉

Honestly, this was quite amusing... 🙂 Maybe the only "language" they understood was actually PHP?

 

Joking apart, I think poor English does not necessarily make a freelancer a liar or fake. In the community there are many users totally convinced their English is perfect whereas it's not. They rate their English as fluent, native or bilingual in their profiles not because they are lying but because they believe their level is high.

 

I understand the point. in order to code correctly the freelancer needs to know what the client wants for the project. If instructions are given in English and the freelancer doesn't get the idea obviously there will be a problem. But in interviews you can test that easily. If they have previous clients who rated them good maybe they did not have any problem with communication, maybe they worked it out. I have many clients whose English is not perfect but I am able to understand.

jaliu
Community Member

after several negative experiences on this site, i can only conclude that it's because upwork allows it to the point that they almost encourage it. they don't care about copyright, they don't care about breaches of contract or false advertising/statements, in fact they try their very best in fact to hide any indication that a freelancer has done anything wrong or illegal. they care only about profit, which is undoubtedly why the platform has become a mess. think about this: they let freelancers remove botched jobs simply by refunding the client. what i found out recently is that they even give top rated providers the benefit of REMOVING feedback for no reason other than if they desire to. if clients knew how bad some of these clients were, they wouldn't hire or would venture to another website. 

if a freelancer submits someone else's copyrighted work as their own, and receives a negative review because of it, all they have to do is refund the client in order to remove the blacklist that the client otherwise would have imposed on the freelancer. if the freelancer steals or cheats the client, same thing. it's absurd to me.

i just finished reporting a freelancer to upwork and they basically have shown no interest in any of the freelancer's behavior. i hired a person to create a logo for me and of course, the initial set looked like work that someone with no skills would have provided. accepting my loss and the blame for thinking i would have gotten something better for the price i paid, i merely asked him to do one simple thing, like make the side of a letter straight. he was unable to understand this, even after i provided a reference. so he asked me to draw it by hand, which I did 3 times. he responds by saying it looks like what I originally referenced. obviously?

then he goes and does the opposite, and at this point, i'm flabbergasted and upset that i'm doing for this guy what I paid him to do. he couldn't even provide a single suggestion towards revising the logo. so i told him i wanted to end the job, and he doesn't understand. so i stop responding to him, and a few weeks later, I find out that he submitted the job and escrow was released since I never responded to the submission.

so i ask him for a refund, and he doesn't respond. i ask him again, and he says no because he worked so hard blah blah blah even though I knew he didn't spend more than 5 minutes on the job. he won't even finish the work that he clearly did not finish because he himself kept asking me for instructions, despite promising unlimited revisions (and let me remind you he did not do even one). instead of just doing the work, which would have been MUCH easier. he chose to avoid it and talk about how difficult it was to make the logos, comparing them multi-million dollar logos used by giant corporations.  he even claims the fonts were customized. 

i am just laughing as i'm reading this, and tell him i could have just used free fonts. he issues me a challenge to reproduce what he did, and having already seen and played with many and some of those very fonts, I did so, and with little effort. instead of refunding me, what does he do? says that I stole his work and defrauded him. now, i'm getting irritated and try to explain to him that none of what he's saying even makes sense, though at this point i realized i'm dealing with an idiot. instead of doing the work and providing valid counterarguments to my case, he just says stranger and stranger things and continues to accuse me of fraud and cheating freelancers. and this while he has simply not even completed the job.

i file a dispute with upwork and they say they are just going to refund me instead of putting me through the dispute process. so, i thank them for that, but they don't seem to care that this guy didn't finish the job, lied about fonts, basically stole my money and didn't finish the job, and called me a liar and fraudster.

after my public feedback posted for him publicly, his public response to the feedback was that I was fraudulent and a liar (spelled wrong of course.) he even claimed he had 124/125 other clients give him outstanding ratings and feedback. i could easily see that by going through his history, which he had removed some of, and job success score, that that claim was unequivocally impossible. now, i would consider this not only slander but false advertising since the numerical figure he made about client satisfaction was a fact and simply untrue. upwork claimed that everything he said was considered opinion, though legally speaking, that is undoubtedly untrue. upwork themselves may or may not be liable for what a user posts, but they obviously have no interest in correcting factually false statements.

so to find out that this person can just remove my feedback of everything he did with ease is kind of scary to me and it speaks to the fact that upwork has no interest in transparency and objectivity of freelancer profiles. they can say anything they want regardless of how false or outrageous it is without repurcussions, so why wouldn't they? if he can steal my money, call me a liar and fraudulent in reponse to a negative review, or simply delete the feedback, that passes all the costs along to the unassuming client. i remember years ago i was considering hiring a developer (or maybe i did hire him, i don't remember, and may have just interviewed him but didn't leave me with a good impression). he had limited, but positive reviews. i remember checking on his profile sometimes after that, and was a little surprised to see a string of negative ratings. so why did i think he was going to be good/decent intially? well, upon checking his profile again after awhile, both those negative jobs disappeared. i thought i was going crazy until i discovered how easy it was for freelancers to remove that kind of valuable, vital information that clients would want. 

too bad it doesn't work the same way for clients. i could just lie to freelancers and if i got bad feedback, just call them a liar and say i gave all my freelancers million dollar bonuses. that is, temporarily, before i deleted the review, of course.

VladimirG
Community Manager
Community Manager

Hi Jonathan,

 

I'm sorry about the issue which arose on your contract with this freelancer. I checked and see our dispute team assisted you in resolving the issue.

 

I'd like to clarify a few points you made in your post

 

"after several negative experiences on this site, i can only conclude that it's because upwork allows it to the point that they almost encourage it. they don't care about copyright, they don't care about breaches of contract or false advertising/statements, in fact they try their very best in fact to hide any indication that a freelancer has done anything wrong or illegal."

 

I've checked your support tickets and would invite you to report any copyright violation or other illegal action you might have experienced on your contracts and our team will follow up to review and take action. 

 

"they let freelancers remove botched jobs simply by refunding the client. what i found out recently is that they even give top rated providers the benefit of REMOVING feedback for no reason other than if they desire to."

 

Issuing a full refund removes public feedback but doesn't remove private feedback client left for the freelancer, which does affect their Job Success Score. Regarding the feedback removal option available to Top Rated freelancers, requests may only be made every 3 months and after 10 or more completed contracts from the time a freelancer submitted their previous request. That means this option is not available for each contract and can't be abused in the way you proposed.   


"if a freelancer submits someone else's copyrighted work as their own, and receives a negative review because of it, all they have to do is refund the client in order to remove the blacklist that the client otherwise would have imposed on the freelancer. if the freelancer steals or cheats the client, same thing. it's absurd to me."

 

Both behaviours you mentioned above are a violation of Upwork ToS and, if confirmed after a detailed investigation by our team, would have consequences for the freelancer's account. I'd like to invite you again to report and provide evidence for any of the violations you mentioned in your post here and our team will follow up to review and assist you further.

 

We can't discuss specific cases here in the forums but I can confirm our dispute team followed the correct procedure. To clarify, Upwork won't assess blame in a disagreement and we do have a procedure in place for the users to utilize in order to resolve their differences if these can't be resolved amicably between the contractual parties. In addition, we do monitor behaviour on our platform and do address freelancers as well as clients who exhibit behaviour determined to be inappropriate and abusive.

~ Vladimir
Upwork
jaliu
Community Member

well, if after opening a dispute case and discussing the actions of this freelancer with several different agents on several different occassions, it seems clear no one cares. several agents have stated they agree with me and even refunded me which would at least in part validate my argument. yet, they let him keep the money and i have no doubt no action was taken whatsoever or even really investigated for the purpose of corrective action. but i already had a feeling this would be the case going in.

 

also, i never said a top rated freelancer could remove every single feedback. but every 3 months could mean all of the negative reviews this person ever receives. just wiped out. for what reason are you giving freelancers the ability to remove negative feedback in the first place? if a review is inaccurate they can dispute it. in my case, if a provider performs poorly, cheats/steals, and makes false accusations, all they have to do is request it be removed and no client will be able to see it? that's ridiculous to me and i bet other clients would agree. you also conveniently left out the fact that a top rated freelancer's option to remove the feedback also removes the impact on his success score. that practice is almost false advertising itself because it doesn't actually indicate job success. a perfect percentage could actually mean horrific work and or some kind of fraud 1 out of every 10 jobs. 

versailles
Community Member


Jonathan L wrote:

 

also, i never said a top rated freelancer could remove every single feedback. but every 3 months could mean all of the negative reviews this person ever receives. just wiped out. for what reason are you giving freelancers the ability to remove negative feedback in the first place? 


Jonathan, you are missing one aspect of the problem. Yes, there are scammers and more generally all kinds of ill-intended people on Upwork, but on both sides, freelancers and clients.

 

The special perk that allows top rated FLers to remove one feedback every 3 months and after 10 or more completed contracts is not a luxury and there are no other ways to dispute a wrong feedback. Upwork never removes these. Few days ago this perk saved by butt after a miscommunication happened between two team members (one forgot to tell the other one that he created a contract resulting in me taking some serious heat from his colleague). 

 

And no, this perk cannot allow an unprofessional provider to get away from the consequence of bad performance. It's one job out of 10 and 3 months. A bad performer will get hit by poor feedback way more than that.

 

Now while I commend Upwork's efforts to ban freelancers who are frauds, many of us are reporting these to Upwork when we spot them, I would agree that there is room for improvement in this field.

-----------
"Where darkness shines like dazzling light"   —William Ashbless
jaliu
Community Member

i'm sorry, if you're creating multiple contracts, which seems pretty clumsy if you ask me, am i supposed to feel sorry for you and add in a feature to remove feedback because you couldn't get something as simple as creating one contract correct? and that's the point. it's saving your butt when it really shouldn't be. and it gives people who did something bad a way to just erase it. you don't see yelp letting businesses remove reviews, do you? if you have good feedback overall, that will show. erasing feedback is just shady. 

"And no, this perk cannot allow an unprofessional provider to get away from the consequence of bad performance. It's one job out of 10 and 3 months. A bad performer will get hit by poor feedback way more than that." 

Sorry, the perk does exactly that: allow an unprofessional provider to get away from the consequence of a bad performance. Just because he does a good job or performs adequately 90% of the time doesn't mean he should be able botch or mistreat a client every 10 times without consequences. Also, if you think so highly of this feature then it should be implemented for clients too. I would love to have the option to remove negative feedback even if i did something wrong and was at fault.

Jonathan:

You're not wrong when you point out that there are aspects of Upwork which annoy you, and which annoy other clients.

 

As somebody who is sometimes a client, but uses Upwork primarily as a freelancer, I want clients to have an excellent experience. Anything that detracts from that experience makes clients less likely to use Upwork, and essentially makes the site potentially less profitable for me.

 

The same IS NOT TRUE for things that annoy freelancers.

There are many things which annoy freelancers, but which do not make the site potentially less profitable for me.


Because if "Freelancer Fred" decides he really hates something about the site... it's not something that really interfers with my work, but he just hates it... and he decides to LEAVE the platform... Well, that's fine. There are plenty of other freelancers who want to work on the platform.

 

So Upwork really should value EVERY client highly.

 

And while Upwork should respect the human dignity of every freelancer, it doesn't mean that each freelancer is as valuable to the platform as each client is.

 

I appreciate your taking your own time to express some of your feelings about the platform. These are worthwhile points to consider, even if Upwork doesn't change everything that you don't like.

 

As for your own future efforts on the site:

If I were to offer one word of advice it would be this:

There is a FAILURE RATE for EVERY job niche and pay level. On Upwork and everywhere else.

This is normal. Don't give so much thought to freelancers who fail you. Get them off your project and forget about them as soon as possible.

i understand every project doesn't go smoothly -- i even mentioned that decided to chalk it up to a loss. i even expected it go somewhat unsmoothly, but then the guy won't refund or me or do the work, and even accuses me of fraud after i prove him wrong. i would think that upwork would take some kind of action on freelancers who don't want to work and harass/slander clients without a reasonable basis. false advertising and slandering in feedback is even more serious behavior which should be disciplined. the platform has no credibility if people can write whatever they want, and of course ultimately it ruins it for the freelancers who actually are good.

versailles
Community Member


Jonathan L wrote:

i'm sorry, if you're creating multiple contracts, 


No Jonathan, I created no contracts. Only clients can create contracts. I got hired by the member of a team who created the contract and forgot to tell his partner. When the said partner noticed that somebody was working, they closed the contract leaving the worst feedback possible to me, because they did not understand what I was doing here.

 

They apologized afterwards, but it was already too late. There is no way you can remove a private feedback once it has been left, which is the one that has the strongest impact on the JSS. You can agree to change the public feedback, but that feedback weights very little in the overall calculation of one's JSS.

 

This was a case of a simple miscommunication among a hiring team that would have a serious negative impact if there was no perk. But sometimes sneaky clients scam freelancers too, it does happen. You assume that a poor feedback is always a consequence of a bad performance, while it is indeed the case most of the time, both freelancers and clients can be victims of questionable behavior from the other party.

 

Now I understand that you are angry and that there is nothing that anyone here can say that could convince you that things are more contrasted than you think. That's okay. I would be POed too. Sometimes I am actually when I see Upwork dragging their leg to remove sneaky freelancers from the platform.

-----------
"Where darkness shines like dazzling light"   —William Ashbless


Rene K wrote:

Jonathan L wrote:

i'm sorry, if you're creating multiple contracts, 


No Jonathan, I created no contracts. Only clients can create contracts. I got hired by the member of a team who created the contract and forgot to tell his partner. When the said partner noticed that somebody was working, they closed the contract leaving the worst feedback possible to me, because they did not understand what I was doing here.

 

They apologized afterwards, but it was already too late. There is no way you can remove a private feedback once it has been left, which is the one that has the strongest impact on the JSS. You can agree to change the public feedback, but that feedback weights very little in the overall calculation of one's JSS.

 

This was a case of a simple miscommunication among a hiring team that would have a serious negative impact if there was no perk. But sometimes sneaky clients scam freelancers too, it does happen. You assume that a poor feedback is always a consequence of a bad performance, while it is indeed the case most of the time, both freelancers and clients can be victims of questionable behavior from the other party.

 

Now I understand that you are angry and that there is nothing that anyone here can say that could convince you that things are more contrasted than you think. That's okay. I would be POed too. Sometimes I am actually when I see Upwork dragging their leg to remove sneaky freelancers from the platform.


ugh, the ol' "employee leaves and you get passed on to someone who never worked with you and just wants to get rid of you to make himself look good." God, I've been there so many many mannnny times and it neverrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr works out well for me. It's one of the pitfalls of long-term contracts with employees instead of CEOs and co-founders.

jaliu
Community Member

my point isn't that there aren't any benefits to the feature. how often does a situation like yours occur? it still doesn't change the fact that a freelancer can remove feedback for something that they did do wrong. i'm not sure what feedback upwork is willing to change (they advertise that you can though don't elaborate beyond that), but they should be willing to if a situation really called for it. 

regardless, the freelancer i worked with did not do the job, submitted the work, avoided the work AND a refund after i messaged him, and also failed to honor his promise of a refund after i provided proof that i could easily replicate his "customized fonts." then he proceeded to call me a fraud and liar both privately and publicly. i have a huge problem with him being able to write whatever he wants in his feedback response, especially when his statements are false facts. Do you think dishonest client should be allowed to call freelancers cheaters and liars simply to discredit the exposure of fraud? the fact that upwork allows all of this is what is unacceptable, for lack of a better word, to me.

58967181
Community Member

I resorted to using google form to filter out dozens of them instaead of having to read their copy and paste message that always start with "hi I have read and understood your requirements "

0d693cd2
Community Member

I have been using this platform for 10 years. We have development teams in Armenia and Pakistan. We have cultivated a few great team leaders, but it took us 5+ years to get the team leader proficient in western work customs, business logic, communication skills, keeping schedules, etc. Our cultures are different and it is a process to get on the same page.

We have recently ran  a post for a few Jr. developers for the Pakistani team; Jr developers are at the lowest level of pay when we start them. We know what they get paid locally at software houses, and offer them an immediate increase in pay, long term employement, vacation time, paid holidays, etc. These low end post will pull 15 to 20 candidates. We typically weed it down to about 5 to 7 possible candidates.

When posting these Jr developer job it is really a wide range of candidates you will get, some examples:
"I have 15 years expience  and am a perfect fit for this Job!"

I will set an interview time, and say "ping me at 8:30 am MST" 30% fail to make the appointment, saying they were "Confused my MST", they are deleted immediately.
When ask "rate yourself in your Laravel skills 1 to 5", 90% say "4 or 4.5". You have to understand, in their culture, it is not lying, they all exagerate, it is common in their culture. It does not bother me now, but I have been doing this for 15 years.

All have a long list of all frameworks, coding languages , skill sets, etc. and must of it is an exgeration; they are trying to get any job they can to survive.

 

In the western world, we focus on having good people fill a role, we focus  a lot on the "person": are they a good person, will they strive to do their best, communicate, try hard, etc. For many of the candidates, their focus is 100% on their skill set "I know lavael and vue, I code well".

So in the end, they are "Fakes" but it is more of a cultural differnce between your objective and their objective.  If you work at the lower end (more fakes) find tools to find the "diamond in the rough": we interview, we have a native speaker (Team leader) interview, we give a test "code" project and see their logic skills and we have started using a "Personality Test" to make sure we don't have really bad people.

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