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Re: With the Russian Ruble so weak, should their programmers be cheap?

Active Member
George B Member Since: Jan 21, 2016
11 of 67

I am happy for you that there are so many jobs for you to do.

 

The picture here in the US is not so good.  I could hire 20 people for $25 in a couple days.  $50,000 per year is a good job.  That is more than lawyers make coming out of law school.  That is more than teachers make at the end of their careers.  Even in San Francisco (hugely expensive to live), Google starts their programmers out at $65,000 and they get the best of the best.

 

Good luck.

 

George

 

 

 

Active Member
Alexandr M Member Since: Jun 27, 2015
12 of 67

Thats pretty interesting for me as freelancer, as I always considered $25/h to be an average hourly rate in USA. May be I was wrong. Could you answer some of my questions, so I understand situation better:

- What can you say about experience and knowledge of $25/h US based workers? 

- As employer, do you have any extra expenses when hiring US workers? Like medical leave, payed holidays, taxes etc?

Active Member
George B Member Since: Jan 21, 2016
13 of 67

Hi Alexandr,

 

The answer to your "average hourly rate" question is a little complicated.  It depends heavily on where the job is.  In New York City or San Francisco, the mean (better than average) income is much higher.

 

75% of EMPLOYEED individuals make less than $25.  But that includes people that have been working for 40 years.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States

 

Plus, there is a huge percentage of young people that have "left the workplace" meaning they are not looking for a job.  The reason they are not looking for a job, is that they would not be able to find a job.  That is because the minimum wage is higher than what they are worth.

 

Yes, if you have an engineering degree from a top university, you will make more starting out.  But most entry level jobs in programming is aroung $22 per hour.  But that assumes a degree.  A friend of mine owns a company that employes about 350 programmers.  After 5 years, they finally hit $25.  (**edited for Community Guidelines**).

 

About extra expenses, yes, it costs about 8% more than their wage to pay taxes.  But other expenses, like bonuses would be similar no matter where the employee is.

 

George

 

Highlighted
Community Guru
Jennifer M Member Since: May 17, 2015
14 of 67

@George B wrote:

I am happy for you that there are so many jobs for you to do.

 

The picture here in the US is not so good.  I could hire 20 people for $25 in a couple days.  $50,000 per year is a good job.  That is more than lawyers make coming out of law school.  That is more than teachers make at the end of their careers.  Even in San Francisco (hugely expensive to live), Google starts their programmers out at $65,000 and they get the best of the best.

 

Good luck.

 

George

 

 

 


You're completely out of touch with the market buddy. Your Google figures are wrong for engineers. They start at $120 in California. $175k in NY. 

 

I was invited to hand over my resume to a Google recruiter, saw the prices and then the cost of living in San Francisco and figured I'd actually be going backwards in salary.

 

Your figures for the average developer are also way off. $50 is for a junior level developer. Midrange is about $60k-$75. Senior is $80k+. Obviously, there are fluctuations depending on location, but that's a good range.

 

No wonder why you can't find anyone. Your salary figures are from the 1980s.

Active Member
George B Member Since: Jan 21, 2016
15 of 67

Jennifer,

 

Thank you for that colorful response.

 

First of all, do yourself a favor and Google "how much does google pay developers" and tell the screen it is way out of touch "buddy".

 

And actually, my figures are completely wrong for not only Engineers, but brain surgeons and most hedge fund managers.  Who the heck said anything about Engineers.  And yes, as I said earlier, San Fran and NY are much higher. So what.  Getting one of the guys on the space station to do freelance is even more expensive.

 

I want a javascript expert.  That's what I want.  They don't even have to have finished High School.  And I am finding candidates just fine.

 

Normally one has to go to a bowling alley to find more things said that aren't true.

 

And I have been a developer for 40 years.  Are you a developer?  I gave you my old company that I founded and told you what they pay (almost 400 developers in Tampa, **edited for Community Guidelines**). 

 

It is true that my knowledge spans to the 1980's but unlike you, I actually do this stuff everyday.  I am a true full-stack developer.   But thanks for assuming I am a nobody.

 

George

 

 

 

 

 

Active Member
George B Member Since: Jan 21, 2016
16 of 67

I am sorry for the tone of my response.

 

Please disregard it.

 

Thanks,

 

George

 

Ace Contributor
Ilia K Member Since: Jun 22, 2015
17 of 67

Hello,

 

On the one side, of course, you are right. Currently 1$ costs here in Russia, 85 Rub. And we don't know, maybe next week it will be 100 Rub. 

Of course, we can't compare 20$ per hour couple years ago and now, and in the same way we can't compare 800 rub couple years ago and 800 rub now. Today you can't even go to the grocery store with 800 rub Smiley Happy

 

Please think about this, when you decide how much you have to pay. 

Maybe you don't have to cut your hour rate twice? I think you can set 15 instead of 20 and this will be win-win. 

 

 

Active Member
George B Member Since: Jan 21, 2016
18 of 67

Hi Ilya,

 

According to this:

http://www.inflation.eu/inflation-rates/russia/historic-inflation/cpi-inflation-russia.aspx

The last two years of inflation totaled under 12%.  The exchange rate has changed by 270%.

 

What is fair is that you should make 12% more rubles, not 270% more rubles.

 

From (your example) 800 Rubles to 900 rubles would be larger than inflation.  If 800 rubles was fair 2 years ago, why is 900 rubles now not fair?

 

Thanks,

 

George

 

Ace Contributor
Ilia K Member Since: Jun 22, 2015
19 of 67

George,

 

Real inflation for groceries is about 35% from 2014, according to this info: https://slon.ru/posts/62624
You can translate it with google, or just check the picture, this is cost of main things in grocery store, 2016 compared with 2014.

 

But, as you probably know, almost 100% of our goods in stores (clothes, electronics, etc) are imported, or made with imported raw materials.
So, prices are going up together with $.

 

Of course, I'm not crying about how sick our country is, no.


And, definetely, you can find here the most cheapest freelancers for you, but let's be honest, we are not India and don't want to translate 1000 words for $10 or write 1000 lines of code for same amount, just because it is many-many rubles Smiley Happy

Community Guru
Preston H Member Since: Nov 24, 2014
20 of 67

This is a bizarre conversation.

 

George should not be attempting to use his Upwork job postings to help Russian programmers, ensure that Russian programmers aren't over-paid, or to validate economic theories.

 

He should focus on doing what is best for himself and his company. If he is interested in developing high-quality software, he should hire the best programmers he can afford. If he wants to save money and the quality of what his developers produce is not important, he should hire the lowest cost developers he can find.

 

Why would he think that the rates developers charge must be tied to monetary exchange rates? My rates are not tied to anything like that. My rates have no connection whatsoever to my county's economy or to my financial needs. My rates are based on supply and demand.

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