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ae3afdad
Community Member

need advice - writing a book

I have a book idea, but I'm having a lot of trouble figuring out how to get started. How could I use upwork freelancers? What do I look for?

ACCEPTED SOLUTION

Wow, Preston: "You don't literally need to know anything about the process."  Sure, if you don't mind learning by trial and error. On the other hand, I think the thread was posted so he could eliminate some of that. 

So, anyway, John, you have a book idea ... great. Let's go over the basics.

To get a book completed, you need four people. You need a writer, an editor, a proofreader and a publisher.

 

In this day and age, thanks to the Internet (mostly), people want the writer to also do the editing and the proofreading. This is a great idea if you want to save money and throw the quality in the toilet. 

 

Nonetheless, have at it. I don't know what kind of book you want, but it doesn't matter that much. I supose you need a taste tester if it's a cookbook, but otherwise you still need a writer, an editor, a proofreader and a publisher. (And an artist, I suppose ... I forgot about them.)

What's the problem? The problem is in the last category: The Publisher.

Nine out of ten people who start a book project on Upwork have no idea that their role is to be the Publisher. They don't know what a publisher does ... haven't a freaking clue. They can vaguely imagine what the other roles are -- except they want one person to do them all, which should be a capital offense. But they have no concept or even appreciation for the role of the publisher. 

Consquently, the projects either fail or they're just a huge mess. Or, since they forgot they need an editor and a proofreader, (because good publishers aren't cheapskates) they end up with some scratched out e-book that has their name on the cover that nobody gives a poop about.

That's what it sounds like for you. It sounds like you haven't figured out your role as publisher and what they do. That would be my first recommendation. Figure that out.

I could tell you; it's not rocket science. A publisher represents the money. So -- they are the boss. They know what the book is expected to look like, sound like, what attitude it will have, what style, whatever. They hire the editor and INSTRUCT the editor on what kind of book you want. What are the goals? Who is the audience? What is included? What isn't included? 

Here's somthing else publishers do: They Do Their Homework. They study other books. They compare and contrast. They can discuss styles and content. They have an idea on the artwork. 

I can tell you unequivacably that 99 out of 100 Upwork clients have done absolutely zero homework on what they want. They think. Hey, book. Hire writer. That's all there is to it.

Do your homework. Hire people. Train them or instruct them (isn't that what employers do?). Support them. Get them the material they need. Don't be a slacker ... be a publisher. Publishers get paid. They don't sit in their office all day and look out the window. They "usher" a project through. That doesn't mean hire people and take a nap. 

Anyway, you get the idea. This is the age of the Internet; Nobody remembers how it's done anymore. Figure out your role. It isn't just "You literally don't need to know anything about the process." It's exactly the opposite: Know exactly how the process works ... someone writes, someone edits, somone proofreads, publisher in charge as supportive as possible. 

Anyway, what do I know? I've just been doing this since computers were only found in sci-fi books.

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24 REPLIES 24
martina_plaschka
Community Member


John W wrote:

I have a book idea, but I'm having a lot of trouble figuring out how to get started. How could I use upwork freelancers? What do I look for?


A ghostwriter and an editor. 

And be aware that when it does go wrong, it can do so in a spectacular fashion....

bevcam
Community Member

Be sure that you have conceptualized your idea well enough to convey accuartely what you're looking for before you hire a writer.

 

I've had two clients hire me with an idea for a book, but when we got down to elaborating on content they didn't know what they wanted. If I, as a writer, am writing your idea you have to give me a definite framework to work on.

 

Now I insist on a written outline for me to get started. 

 

Otherwise, you could end up wasting your time and money. 

kfarnell
Community Member

> What do I look for?

 

Someone who's written more than one book. Some people can write excellent articles, but that doesn't always translate to being able to write a book or handle a long-term project.

 

Other things depend on specifics. Fiction or non-fiction?

John:

You literally don't need to know ANYTHING about the process!

 

You can post a job stating exactly what you told us. Post an hourly job stating your goal, and say that you want to hire people to consult with you.

 

Hire different people just to talk to. The more the better. At least four. Talk to them while they log time. For ten minutes. For an hour.

 

Ask questions. Discuss. Pay a small amount of money, and end up with much greater understanding of what you need to do in order to move forward.

Given that book writing tends to be fixed price, that process will exclude a lot of relevant freelancers.

 

And you'll need to say more than you have here to get decent bids.

Wow, Preston: "You don't literally need to know anything about the process."  Sure, if you don't mind learning by trial and error. On the other hand, I think the thread was posted so he could eliminate some of that. 

So, anyway, John, you have a book idea ... great. Let's go over the basics.

To get a book completed, you need four people. You need a writer, an editor, a proofreader and a publisher.

 

In this day and age, thanks to the Internet (mostly), people want the writer to also do the editing and the proofreading. This is a great idea if you want to save money and throw the quality in the toilet. 

 

Nonetheless, have at it. I don't know what kind of book you want, but it doesn't matter that much. I supose you need a taste tester if it's a cookbook, but otherwise you still need a writer, an editor, a proofreader and a publisher. (And an artist, I suppose ... I forgot about them.)

What's the problem? The problem is in the last category: The Publisher.

Nine out of ten people who start a book project on Upwork have no idea that their role is to be the Publisher. They don't know what a publisher does ... haven't a freaking clue. They can vaguely imagine what the other roles are -- except they want one person to do them all, which should be a capital offense. But they have no concept or even appreciation for the role of the publisher. 

Consquently, the projects either fail or they're just a huge mess. Or, since they forgot they need an editor and a proofreader, (because good publishers aren't cheapskates) they end up with some scratched out e-book that has their name on the cover that nobody gives a poop about.

That's what it sounds like for you. It sounds like you haven't figured out your role as publisher and what they do. That would be my first recommendation. Figure that out.

I could tell you; it's not rocket science. A publisher represents the money. So -- they are the boss. They know what the book is expected to look like, sound like, what attitude it will have, what style, whatever. They hire the editor and INSTRUCT the editor on what kind of book you want. What are the goals? Who is the audience? What is included? What isn't included? 

Here's somthing else publishers do: They Do Their Homework. They study other books. They compare and contrast. They can discuss styles and content. They have an idea on the artwork. 

I can tell you unequivacably that 99 out of 100 Upwork clients have done absolutely zero homework on what they want. They think. Hey, book. Hire writer. That's all there is to it.

Do your homework. Hire people. Train them or instruct them (isn't that what employers do?). Support them. Get them the material they need. Don't be a slacker ... be a publisher. Publishers get paid. They don't sit in their office all day and look out the window. They "usher" a project through. That doesn't mean hire people and take a nap. 

Anyway, you get the idea. This is the age of the Internet; Nobody remembers how it's done anymore. Figure out your role. It isn't just "You literally don't need to know anything about the process." It's exactly the opposite: Know exactly how the process works ... someone writes, someone edits, somone proofreads, publisher in charge as supportive as possible. 

Anyway, what do I know? I've just been doing this since computers were only found in sci-fi books.


Anthony H wrote:



Do your homework. Hire people. Train them or instruct them (isn't that what employers do?). Support them. Get them the material they need. Don't be a slacker ... be a publisher. Publishers get paid. They don't sit in their office all day and look out the window. They "usher" a project through. That doesn't mean hire people and take a nap. 

Alternatively, you can hire a truly seasoned professional ghostwriter to take charge of the project, extract the information from you through artful questioning and knowledgeable guidance, structure and write the book, hire the editor, and present you with a polished text. However, you should expect to pay a bare minimum of $30,000 for that, and possibly quite a bit more.


 

Good point, Tiffany. But if you hire a truly seasoned ghostwriter, you're still the publisher. Secondly, never have someone edit their own work. That's just ... well, insane. Of course, it's the kind of insanity that doesn't cause anyone to flinch anymore, so maybe I should just say "thank god we got rid of those expensive editors and proofreaders -- who needed them, anyway?"

I just happen to see empirical evidence every day that there's a difference between publishing a book and publishing a good book. Do you think the folks at Houghton Mifflin ever say, "Hey, we'll just have the writer edit and proofread! Think of the money we'll save!"

I sincerely doubt you'll ever hear that at any respectable publishing house. 

Using a writer-editor-proofreader approach isn't just a cultural norm. It's a PROCESS. It's a process that has come down through centuries of publishing. It's about checks and balances, double checks and double balances.This is the most elegant, streamlined, efficient way to do it or the publishing houses (believe you me) would do it another way. They're in it for the money. But they know publishing crap will put them out of business. Believe me, if there was a simpler, more elegant process, they would do it. 

 

Then along comes who gives a crap publishing ... modern times, the Internet. I mean, what good is an e-book if you can't even use it for toilet paper?


Anthony H wrote:

Good point, Tiffany. But if you hire a truly seasoned ghostwriter, you're still the publisher.

 

Assuming that the "author" plans to act as the publisher, which hasn't been suggested. There are many alternatives, from seeking out a traditional publisher to working with a paid publishing service.

 

Secondly, never have someone edit their own work. That's just ... well, insane. Of course, it's the kind of insanity that doesn't cause anyone to flinch anymore, so maybe I should just say "thank god we got rid of those expensive editors and proofreaders -- who needed them, anyway?"

Not sure where this came from, since my list included having the writer hire an editor? 

I just happen to see empirical evidence every day that there's a difference between publishing a book and publishing a good book. Do you think the folks at Houghton Mifflin ever say, "Hey, we'll just have the writer edit and proofread! Think of the money we'll save!"

 

Seems like this is such a hot button for you that you're going to rant a bit about it whether anyone has suggested it or not.

 

Also worth noting that I've seen some very bad books that have been professionally edited and put out by large publishing houses. I'm virtually certain you have, too. The book that made me realize at 16 that I could write professionally because it was so terribly written came from HarperCollins.


I sincerely doubt you'll ever hear that at any respectable publishing house. 
Or, you know, here. But carry on if you must.
Using a writer-editor-proofreader approach isn't just a cultural norm. It's a PROCESS. It's a process that has come down through centuries of publishing. It's about checks and balances, double checks and double balances.This is the most elegant, streamlined, efficient way to do it or the publishing houses (believe you me) would do it another way. They're in it for the money. But they know publishing crap will put them out of business. Believe me, if there was a simpler, more elegant process, they would do it. 

 

Oh. I see you must. Well, okay, then. I'm a little afraid to say more, for fear of what you'll pretend I said and write a 2,000 word rebuttal of this time.

 

Then along comes who gives a crap publishing ... modern times, the Internet. I mean, what good is an e-book if you can't even use it for toilet paper?


 

Anonymous-User
Not applicable

You are spot on. 

My biz is publishing consultation and author assistance. I have not met one person on here yet that knows anything about what to do, what they need and today I even had to answer the question "what's a manuscript?".  

Self-publishing 101: You wear all the hats. If you got the $$, give the hats to someone else with experience. Posting a job for a book when you don't even know what to ask is the worst way to go about it.  


 

 

ae3afdad
Community Member

thanks!

renata101
Community Member


John W wrote:

I have a book idea, but I'm having a lot of trouble figuring out how to get started. How could I use upwork freelancers? What do I look for?


Based on the brevity question, it appears you're not into doing that much writing or basic homework (Edited to add: and I've just noticed your freelancer profile has been zapped, so I guess you gathered enough information for that article you're doing). That could be a real problem unless you're a subject matter expert (SME) with something in the neighbourhood 10-80 years of relevant experience, and the great idea you have for a book addresses a defined need in your field. 

A lot depends on whether you're looking at ficition or non-fiction and what you have in terms of time and money to spend on your project. Good manuscripts take time to develop if you're serious about what you have to say, and hiring good people to help you isn't cheap because of the time involved. Even if you're hiring someone to do the writing for you, expect to spend a good chunk of your time working with them. You're not going to find a plug'n'play freelancer to do it all for you because this isn't the Google Play Store and it's not like finding an app. 

No one has mentioned devepmental/substantive editors yet, so I'll do that. If you have a basic draft (although it doesn't sound like you do), a developmental editor can work with you to structure your text in a more effective way and identify gaps that affect the overall readabity. But you're the one who handles the writing in this case (this is the more likely scenario if you're an SME with 10-80 years of experience). 





There's an awful lot of assumptions going on here.

 

What's needed varies drastically depending on not only what type of book it is, but also the purpose of the book. There's a big difference between a book to use as promotional material for a business or to sell as part of a speaking platform,  a book intended to be conventionally published, a book you want to self-publish, a book for your mum or best friend that you might self-publish while you're at it, because why not...  And between a book that you have a full outline for, loads of research prepared for and one that needs work just to sort out what it's really about, whether it's a general audience thing or requires specialised knowledge...

 

 All that stuff affects how much work will be involved, how skilled the ghostwriter needs to be in areas other than writing, how long it will take and how much it's likely to cost.

 

However, as most people seem to be assuming in the self-publishing direction, with my Captain Obvious hat on, you'll also need a cover designer and someone to lay it out. 

 

> I've just noticed your freelancer profile has been zapped,

 

He never said he had one. It could simply be a client profile.

Hey Everyone,

Thank you for your replies.

A couple of comments and additional information:


- As a CEO of a non-profit that provides internet safety workshops for
schools and parents, I find it incredibly interesting that no matter what
anybody posts online, *trolls *always show up. What is it about online
interaction that makes a certain vocal part of the population post in
derogatory way? Thank you to all of you that took time to *give helpful
and constructive* feedback, to a very innocent and genuine question from
someone looking for advice.
- *Additional Information*: The book will be nonfiction. It is based on
a presentation I give that I have written word for word, a performed live.
I also have all of the research I used. We have a logo for the book.

Does this information help clarify? For comparison: an Atlanta based
ghostwriter who comes very highly recommended charges $8,000.


John W wrote:
Hey Everyone,

Thank you for your replies.

A couple of comments and additional information:


- As a CEO of a non-profit that provides internet safety workshops for
schools and parents, I find it incredibly interesting that no matter what
anybody posts online, *trolls *always show up. What is it about online
interaction that makes a certain vocal part of the population post in
derogatory way? Thank you to all of you that took time to *give helpful
and constructive* feedback, to a very innocent and genuine question from
someone looking for advice.
- *Additional Information*: The book will be nonfiction. It is based on
a presentation I give that I have written word for word, a performed live.
I also have all of the research I used. We have a logo for the book.

Does this information help clarify? For comparison: an Atlanta based
ghostwriter who comes very highly recommended charges $8,000.

"Trolling is defined as creating discord on the Internet by starting quarrels or upsetting people by posting inflammatory or off-topic messages in an online community." https://unlcms.unl.edu/engineering/james-hanson/trolls-and-their-impact-social-media

 

There haven't been any trolls in this thread. Interesting that someone leading an organization in the business of Internet safety does not distinguish between spirited, plain-spoken professional disagreement and trolling. (Or seem to recognize this is an established community where many regular contributors are familiar to one another through years of participation here.)


Phyllis G wrote:

John W wrote:
Hey Everyone,

Thank you for your replies.

A couple of comments and additional information:


- As a CEO of a non-profit that provides internet safety workshops for
schools and parents, I find it incredibly interesting that no matter what
anybody posts online, *trolls *always show up. What is it about online
interaction that makes a certain vocal part of the population post in
derogatory way? Thank you to all of you that took time to *give helpful
and constructive* feedback, to a very innocent and genuine question from
someone looking for advice.
- *Additional Information*: The book will be nonfiction. It is based on
a presentation I give that I have written word for word, a performed live.
I also have all of the research I used. We have a logo for the book.

Does this information help clarify? For comparison: an Atlanta based
ghostwriter who comes very highly recommended charges $8,000.

"Trolling is defined as creating discord on the Internet by starting quarrels or upsetting people by posting inflammatory or off-topic messages in an online community." https://unlcms.unl.edu/engineering/james-hanson/trolls-and-their-impact-social-media

 

There haven't been any trolls in this thread. Interesting that someone leading an organization in the business of Internet safety does not distinguish between spirited, plain-spoken professional disagreement and trolling. (Or seem to recognize this is an established community where many regular contributors are familiar to one another through years of participation here.)


There's another definition for the word trolling, which is to fish by trailing a baited line along behind a boat, meaning you're fishing just trying to see what you can pull up. It's possible that people interpreting your request in the second way may be the source of any bad responses.

 

The opening question, innocent or otherwise, was incredibly vague and people had to work to find a way to respond to it, meaning that you're leaving the onus on other people to figure out what you're looking for (there's two pages here of people attempting to interpret it in order to give you something that might be helpful). This is not a great strategy if you're a potential client because if you post a project that is equally as vague, people may not interpret it as a serious project or you as a serious client.

 

There are two ways to find freelancers on UpWork. One is to do a search yourself and invite freelancers directly. The other is to post your project and allow people to send you proposals (when you do this, you can also invite specific freelancers to send you a proposal at the same time. The people you invite can decline or reject your invitation).

 

I think there's an unasked question with regard to the statement about the ghostwriter in the Atlanta area who comes well recommended and charges $8000. I believe that questions is something along the lines of "Is this a good price?"

 

Based on the information you've provided, even with the few added lines of information, it's impossible for any of us to tell you that. Projects come in all shapes and sizes, and freelancers charge different rates for different services. 

 

One thing to look for in a freelancer? Some who asks you for in-depth information about the scope of your project, your timeline, and the expected deliverable in order to provide you with a well-considered estimate. If you post your project, it's a good idea to include those. It gives freelancers some idea of your project and whether or not they want to invest some time in sending you a proposal.

 

There's a great discussion about posting for writers here:

https://community.upwork.com/t5/Clients/No-applicants-for-writing-projects-why/m-p/403529?collapse_d...

 

Please heed all advice concerning purple cows.

thanks for your time

> It is based on a presentation I give that I have written word for word, a performed live.
I also have all of the research I used.

 

You'll need more (and perhaps different) research/material as the nature of a presentation and book are different and in a book you can't get away with the repetition you need in a presentation.  

 

> We have a logo for the book.

 

Nice, but you'll still need a cover.

> For comparison: an Atlanta based ghostwriter who comes very highly recommended charges $8,000.

 

Obviously, it depends on factors such as the length of the planned book, whether you want them to do additional research and which direction the wind is blowing as to whether that's a decent price. But it doesn't sound totally unreasonable.

 

You may need a separate person to do further research if you can't and your ghostwriter can't or won't.

You'll need a ghostwriter.

You'll need an editor.

You'll need someone to lay out text.

You may or may not need someone to do internal illustrations or source images.

You'll need a cover designer.

You'll need a proofreader.

Depending on your aims, you may need a PR person/marketing person.


Renata S wrote:

(Edited to add: and I've just noticed your freelancer profile has been zapped, so I guess you gathered enough information for that article you're doing).

No. That is what EVERY client profile looks like. A zapped freelancer profile looks quite different.

 

This is a client account. EVERY client, when clicked through from the forum, looks like this

 

This is a client profileThis is a client profile

 

This is a zapped / closed / deleted / or suspended freelancer account:

 

closed account or suspended profileclosed account or suspended profile


Petra R wrote:

Renata S wrote:

(Edited to add: and I've just noticed your freelancer profile has been zapped, so I guess you gathered enough information for that article you're doing).

No. That is what EVERY client profile looks like. A zapped freelancer profile looks quite different.

 

This is a client account. EVERY client, when clicked through from the forum, looks like this

 

This is a client profileThis is a client profile

 

This is a zapped / closed / deleted / or suspended freelancer account:

 

closed account or suspended profileclosed account or suspended profile


Thanks, Petra.

I see now where I went wrong. I was entirely too focused on the wording, which is almost exactly the same in both cases (except for the word freelancer). I'll try to look for the other cues (like the "do not enter" sign and the exclamation point) from now on.

Anonymous-User
Not applicable

Author coach - someone who helps you through each stage, but more importantly, gets you in the chair and writing. It's not a book until you write it. 😄 




John,

 

You've gotten a lot of technical advice - I'm adding the 'human touch' advice.  You and the writer (if you get that far) need to make 110% positive you are compatible.  You both have to be brutally honest without taking affront or 'having your feelings hurt'. You both need to have a high standard of integrity. You have to fully respect the knowledge the other offers.  

 

The two of you will literally be in bed together for months ... make sure you like the person. Make sure he/she likes you. Before beginning the project.

Great advice, thank you.
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