🐈
» Forums » Clients » Re: when dispute happens, my experience
Page options
dc53181b
Community Member

when dispute happens, my experience

Hi, 

 

I ordered an app on upwork to a freelancer that didn't finish his job. It was supposed to last 2 months, 8 months after his job was still unfinished, and the app full of bugs. But you know what, Upwork won't take any responsibility in it. If you don't receive a product through paypal, amazon, or any other website on this planet, you are refunded. On upwork, they think different. Let's say they innovated! Not only you are not refunded, but you receive a miserable treatment, and you have to pay an arbitration. They will tell you that it's escrow US laws... Who knows. 

So basically, as a client, in case of hidden defects or late deliveries, on upwork you are just not protected at all. 

 

Plus, when you contact dispute department, nobody will tell you how everything works, they will expect you to ask many questions, but the worst is that you won't be able to chat, or have a call with them, and they response time is... 2-3 days, then it becomes clear that upwork is very scared of its own clients. So if like me you need to finish a project asap, upwork won't care and they'll take as much time as they can. 

 

 

As a good client (that I was), my disappointment is huge, this website is very well done, but upwork is just miserable when it comes about clients safety or disputes. In this situation their commission is absolutely unjustified, and I probably won't use upwork again. 

61 REPLIES 61
bobafett999
Community Member

Not knowing the whole story I won't comment on the outcome.  However, in general Upwork is very buyer centric at the expense of freelancers.  They will bend backwords for you!

AveryO
Community Manager
Community Manager

Hi Andrew, 


I'm sorry to learn about your experience with our Disputes Team. I checked your ticket and can see that your mediation specialist has explained the mediation process in detail, as well as answered your additional questions about the process. 

 

The team has noted on the ticket why the responses may take some time. This also allows the team enough time to review the case better. 

 

I would like to share this post by Valeria where she shared more information about disputes. We’ll follow up with the team that’s handling your case and they’ll update you directly as soon as possible. Feel free to follow up if you have any questions or need further assistance.


~ Avery
Upwork
dc53181b
Community Member

Avery, I regret nobody explained me why I was being treated with such disdain, I can't wait to know it, explain me why as a client I can't chat / call with any of you or why it takes you 2 days to read and answer the most simple messages. I really want to know the incredible reason you have to slow down a whole project and then put it at risk, but I'm sure it must be a very good reason. Just to give you an example of how far it goes : I formulated a simple request on monday. This request is very simple : freelancer wants to send me the code of the app, but he wants to do it via dispute team, I have no idea why. If his code is good, then the dispute won't happen. So I asked dispute team to contact my freelancer and ask him the code. For the first time dispute team answered me in a day... in their answer was not a yes or a no. Their answer was "do you confirm you want this"... So here we go for another two days... and you can be sure that next week they still won't have done it. So each and every simple request takes about 2 weeks. Is it normal? No, I don't think so.

hodgesh
Community Member


@Andrew S wrote:

Hi, 

 

I ordered an app on upwork to a freelancer that didn't finish his job. It was supposed to last 2 months, 8 months after his job was still unfinished, and the app full of bugs. But you know what, Upwork won't take any responsibility in it. If you don't receive a product through paypal, amazon, or any other website on this planet, you are refunded. On upwork, they think different.


Most of the hiring, job management, and quality control of deliverables is the responsibility of the client. Now you know not to rely on Upwork.

 

I don't know the details of your situation, but you shouldn't have been waiting 8 months for something that had a two-month deadline. In general, clients should close contracts as soon as they find out that the people they hire won't deliver, pay only for what freelancers do deliver (to avoid relying on Upwork refunding them), and pay only after checking the quality of the job (with the help of a project manager if they lack the expertise to determine whether the job was done correctly).


@Heaven H wrote:

@Andrew S wrote:

Hi, 

 

I ordered an app on upwork to a freelancer that didn't finish his job. It was supposed to last 2 months, 8 months after his job was still unfinished, and the app full of bugs. But you know what, Upwork won't take any responsibility in it. If you don't receive a product through paypal, amazon, or any other website on this planet, you are refunded. On upwork, they think different.


Most of the hiring, job management, and quality control of deliverables is the responsibility of the client. Now you know not to rely on Upwork.

 

I don't know the details of your situation, but you shouldn't have been waiting 8 months for something that had a two-month deadline. In general, clients should close contracts as soon as they find out that the people they hire won't deliver, pay only for what freelancers do deliver (to avoid relying on Upwork refunding them), and pay only after checking the quality of the job (with the help of a project manager if they lack the expertise to determine whether the job was done correctly).


 _______________________

 

On the other hand, if English is not the lingua franca of either client or freelancer, there could have been a complete breakdown in communications. Job/money lost in dubious translation. Perhaps? 

I am not going to address the dispute process as I have never had to use it and hopefully never will. However, I wanted to address some other points made.

 

The OP states: " If you don't receive a product through paypal, amazon, or any other website on this planet, you are refunded. " This is a key and fundamental misunderstanding of the platform. When you go to Amazon, you are buying a finished good. The good is complete and reproducible. What you are not buying on Amazon is a service where someone is going to make that good for you specifically. On Upwork, or any other like site, you are purchasing a service and in your case a service that will, through iteration, result in an application. This is not a one size fits all computer monitor you check out with on Amazon. The end result will be based on custom requirements (which always change) and iteration between freelancer and client. Upwork is not selling you a finished app. Upwork is providing you with a platform to find someone who could do this work, but it's up to you to pick that person and manage your investment. If you go to Yelp (or other like service) and find an electrician to do work in your home, the result of that will be between you and the electrician, not Yelp. However, yes UW does provide tools to facilitate payment and to dispute and perhaps mediate a dispute. No, you will not be able to put your project in a box with a return label and ship it back to a warehouse for a refund or exchange. This is absolutely nothing like a finished good retailer and should not be confused for one.

 

As it seems you are working in the app development space, it is critical to understand that the code is 100% of your investment. I always advise clients of this and whether they become my clients or not, I advise them to make sure that they are taking possession of the code as the project moves. This means using services like Github or Bitbucket under the CLIENT's account that the freelancer will push code to regularly. If you are paying, you should have a copy of the current code, period. Any developer that wants to hold code until the very end is a developer I would never advise someone work with. If you must do a fixed bid contract, make sure you have many milestones for delivery. Hourly is vastly superior in these cases of which you should then receive the code regularly (I do multiple times a day typically.) 

 

I am in no way defending the freelancer in this case as I don't know the story. What I do know is that it seems the platform was not well understood and the project delivery/payment structure was not used properly. This doesn't excuse poor quality work by any means, but even if you leave this platform and go to another or even work with a local consultant, the exact same rules will apply.

 

I hope this gets worked out for you and that UW is able to provide you with better timeliness with their communication.

Hi Scott, 

Thanks a lot for this long and precise message, but I'm afraid I have to disagree. Upwork isn't just an intermediary and isn't just helping with payment. The contract between a buyer and a freelancer is on upwork and that makes all the difference. When I work with an electrician, I make the contract between him and I, which is totally different. And there, there is a specific amount of time which is mentioned in which the service will have to be done. On upwork, there is a delivery time, which is totally ignored during refund request, and that is absolutely abnormal. It shouldn't be necessary to go to AAA in order to solve it, it should be directly in upwork policy, otherwise client is compromised, which is the case on upwork.

Everything depends on the contract and on who made it and how. 

 

Thank you!

petra_r
Community Member


Andrew S wrote: Upwork isn't just an intermediary and isn't just helping with payment. The contract between a buyer and a freelancer is on upwork and that makes all the difference. When I work with an electrician, I make the contract between him and I, which is totally different.

 I think you need to read the terms of Service which you agreed to very carefully...

Hi Nichola, thanks for your answer but as I told Heaven, according to the Laws of most developed countries, clients are protected from hidden defects, always. And no, as i also mentioned him you don't have to be an expert in car in order to buy a car and make sure it will work okay. This has never been client responsibility and never will. If your newly bought car falls apart 3 days after you bought it, it is not your responsibility. You should be aware of what is happening in this kind of cases when it goes in court, it's important. 


@Andrew S wrote:

Hi Nichola, thanks for your answer but as I told Heaven, according to the Laws of most developed countries, clients are protected from hidden defects, always. And no, as i also mentioned him you don't have to be an expert in car in order to buy a car and make sure it will work okay. This has never been client responsibility and never will. If your newly bought car falls apart 3 days after you bought it, it is not your responsibility. You should be aware of what is happening in this kind of cases when it goes in court, it's important. 


 ___________________________________

 

Heaven gave you some good advice and a very reasoned response. I really don't know what cars have to do with your case. But taking it as (a poor) analogy, it is most certainly the responsibility of the client when buying a car - presumably, a second-hand car - to do due diligence on the vehicle and to make certain there is a tight guarantee in case of failure. Of course, if one is stupid enough to buy a car on the Internet without taking basic precautions, one gets what one pays for. 

 

In the case of a bad freelancer, I can't think why you continued with this person, when it was quite clear they were not up to the job. 

Nichola, you confirm you don't know what is a hidden defect. Well the US laws and most European laws protect buyers (whether it's second hand or new) in case of hidden defects... 

My poor analogy was an example to show you that you don't need to be an expert in cars to buy a car, you don't need to be a coder to have the right being delivered with a good app, you don't need to be a doctor in order to get a good treatment, you don't need to be an expert in lights to buy a light on Amazon...  It's very simple : hidden defects are abnormal and illegal but they are in your eyes justified. 

As a non coder, during the first month, I had no possibility to know that the app wouldn't be good because the developer was working on the design. After this first milestone, he told me that all bugs were to be solved at a last milestone (they were 6 in total), but I had some doubts, so i just asked him "next milestone, deliver me an app without bug". And well, he's been unable to do it. . But from my perspective, I clearly don't know how In could have possibly guessed that bugs were always to be solved all along the project. So no, it wasn't quite clear the freelancer was bad, and in addition to it he told me he had issues to complete this project and since I'm quite understanding, I left him some more time to complete it, until I realized he would actually never do it. Also, if you think that ending that kind of contract is easy, you are totally mistaken. Ending up this contract would have mean me loosing thousands of dollars or going on a dispute, knowing that I'm not an expert in coding, how can I exactly prove that this coding was wrong? besides, he was able to solve certain bugs at the beginning until the number of bugs started to grow exponentially... How was I supposed to know that after a certain point he wouldn't be able to solve them and just give up? Maybe I should have gone to a medium to predict the future you think? Well you would have done better, even though you're convinced that I'm stupid and that you are not.

Andrew - I absolutely hear your frustration and understand where it comes from as none of my clients know development either. Indeed there are things you cannot uncover and don't have the proper expertise to evaluate. As a result there are measures you have to take to best ensure your project. Again this does not excuse the developer who has an obligation to do their best work and communicate with your transparently. But, you cannot always count on that whether its this platform, a different platform, or even working with a local company.

 

Bugs in development are common and should always be expected. Whether this with a project started on Upwork or any at Microsoft, Apple, Google, etc. There are exactly zero software projects of any reasonable size that don't have to deal with bugs. Bugs aren't always obvious nor even reproducible. This is a complex topic and I am not going to get into all the types here, but one thing that should be present is good communication between developer and client around what is happening, how things are being tested, and what is be remediated. What the client needs to do is use their business senses to detect when communications and/or results are starting to "smell bad". If this is not possible, then it would be advisable to hire a separate technical project manager who has experience working with technical people and who can suss out issues. You can also hire a developer to spend a few hours doing a code review. This will also help get an independent voice on code quality and can help answer questions for you as a neutral party. You used the analogy of car shopping. If one is buying a used car they typically take that car to a 3rd party mechanic to give it a look over. You have the same option to do this with your development projects.

 

I will also say again that Upwork is here facilitating the client/freelancer connection. Upwork is not managing the project and they are not responsible for the deliverables. They may be helping you to get contracts in place, but they are not taking the project level responsibility you seem to think they are. As Petra suggested, please read the ToS. 

 

Please keep in mind what I said earlier. You should be getting consistent copies of the code. If you are, then you do have value that can be used elsewhere with another developer. We don't know the state of the code but it could be pretty good but has just exceeded the current capabilities of the developer or it could be an unmitigated disaster. There might be much that can be salvaged or picked up and completed. If you do not have the code at all, then again please see my earlier notes on how to never let that happen. 

 

In the end you have a right  to be upset and I hope this works out for you. However, you also have to take steps to better control the project and to protect yourself. Again this is true whether it's Upwork or a local development shop. The same rules will apply.

 

 

Hi Sir as I a developer and freelancer I really feel depressed for your situation but the thing is you should add someone to your team who is senior and the one who is seperate from your developer working on the app.When you are spending thousands of dollars on building then you may spend some money on testing and validation of your work then it may not have happened.Thanks.

petra_r
Community Member


Muhammad B wrote:

I really feel depressed for your situation 


As the post you responded to is well over two years old I am sure the OP is well over it by now and you don't have to be depressed about it...

dc53181b
Community Member

Heaven, do you know what is called "hidden defect"? When you buy a car, do you dismentle it entirely with a professional in order to know whether it's good or not? Well I guess not. Ordering an app is more complex than just ordering a design, a translation, or anything else. Why did I not cancel contract before 8 months? Would you cancel a contract which seems like going good for the only reason that freelancer is late (with all the reasons and excuses he is mentioning for being late)? There are many companies who sued in court some other computer maintenance companies which were extra charging with hidden margins and installing softwares which were found to be unreliable, even after weeks or months... 

You are confusing what amazon and other on-line retailers do.  They are vending machines.  You plop coins push some button and here comes your 'physical product'.  When the product is unique it is your job to discover 'hidden defects' - for cyring out loud you spent 8 months and then discovered that the stuff doesn't work? Some retailers who sell third party didigital stuff do not offer any money back gurantee.  On Upwork if you had followed their rules of engagement then as a buyer you would be protected all the way - you could have not paid a dime even if the stuff worked.  In rare cases when Upwork sides with freelancers the buyers have clearly  done something that is bizzare.

Prashant, sorry to insist, but whatever you buy you are protected from hidden defects or late deliveris. There is no exception to that rule. Check the US laws or international laws. 


@Andrew S wrote:

Prashant, sorry to insist, but whatever you buy you are protected from hidden defects or late deliveris. There is no exception to that rule. Check the US laws or international laws. 


 I have and found no reference to such thing for non physical stuff. 

 

Late deliveries is YOUR problem.  YOU allowed them.


wrote:

Prashant, sorry to insist, but whatever you buy you are protected from hidden defects or late deliveris. There is no exception to that rule. Check the US laws or international laws. 



@Andrew S wrote:

Prashant, sorry to insist, but whatever you buy you are protected from hidden defects or late deliveris. There is no exception to that rule. Check the US laws or international laws. 


 ______________________________________

Andrew, 

 

Yes, the law (in whatever country) does (up to a point) protect you from hidden defects in products and services. But only if you are an independent buyer.   

 

Upwork clearly states that it does NOT take responsibility for a freelancer's defects.  So you would have to personally sue the freelancer in order to recover your losses, but I daresay, legal costs  - particularly if the freelancer is not in same country as you, would well exceed your initial loss. 

 

I think you have been shafted by that freelancer, but I also think you should suck it up and try and find someone reliable to do the job you want - not necessarily from Upwork. But you also need to understand that Upwork and most job platforms on the internet are introductory only, and this is clearly stated in Upwork's ToS. 

 

Basically, this sort of operation is a dating site - so one can hardly expect  the site to be at fault if the man or woman of one's dreams does not come up to scratch in reality!   

 

 

Andrew, using the car analogy, if you bought a defective car from someone on Craigslist, you're not entitled to sue Craigslist as a result.  Craigslist isn't selling you the car.  Nor is Upwork selling you the freelancer.  All Upwork guarantees is that the freelancer is who he says he is, and that feedback from previous jobs is presented accurately.

Having said this, I am sorry about your experience.

Upwork is not really a place where you can "buy software" in the same way that you can "buy a car" at an automobile dealership.

 

Upwork allows clients to hire freelancers to work for them.

 

That is very obvious with hourly contracts.

 

But it is also true with fixed-price contracts.

 

If a client thinks that she can "create a fixed-price contract" to "create a mobile app," then that may seem ideal. But it's really not that simple. And that mindset is not the best path to achieve a successful outcome.

 

Successful projects creating using Upwork will involve either hourly contracts, or fixed-price contracts for very specific, discrete parts of an overall system. With each part being checked out and tested separately by a project manager.

 

I am sorry for any negative experience that any client has while using Upwork. But however one wishes Upwork functioned can not change how things actually work with real clients and real projects and real freelancers.

 

And remember: Only about 20% of freelancer developers can serve effectively as their own project manager. So if the client (project owner) is NOT acting as the project manager, and the client has not hired an independent project manager, then it means (by default) that the lead developer is the project manager. But if only 20% of developers can perform that role effectively, it means that you have an 80% chance that the project management is NOT being done effectively, or not being done at all.

Hi Preston, 

 

There are many people successfully ordering apps or softwares on upwork... The idea sounds strange I admit, but it's quite common and it's working. 

 

Thanks. 

Hi Bruce, thanks for your answer but my intention was never to "sue" Upwork, I'm saying that Upwork isn't protecting clients in case of late delivery, and Upwork is very slow to respond when you are starting a dispute, which makes everything very complicated. 

re: "I'm saying that Upwork isn't protecting clients in case of late delivery, and Upwork is very slow to respond when you are starting a dispute"

 

I completely agree with Andrew's statement.

 

Upwork does not protect clients regarding late delivery. Upwork can definitely be slow to respond to starting a dispute, and slow to handle a dispute.

 

Knowing this, my recommendation to clients are:

- Do not rely on Upwork in any way to guarantee delivery dates.

 

- If you have a time-sensitive task that you need done, either:

a) only hire people you have worked with before enough times to know exactly how they handle deadlines

[or]

b) hire enough people to ensure that you will receive the work in time. When I want work one quickly, I routinely hire 3 to 10 freelancers to work on the same task.

 

- Plan to never, ever initiate a dispute. This will help you manage projects effectively, if you know that Upwork and its dispute process are not some kind of "escape clause" you can fall back on. Rather than planning to possibly file a dispute if something doesn't go right, it means hiring enough freelancers, evaluating their work (or having your project manager do so) sufficiently so that you know who to keep working with and who to STOP working with.

Hi Preston, 

 

What you described is exactly the mindset I had before starting with this developer. But you mentioned an interesting point that I never tried and didn't think possible in terms of coding : hiring more than one developer... I have no idea how possible that would be in the creation of an app, in terms of organization. When you hired more than one person, did it happen sometimes/often that the freelancers couldn't agree on the organization of the tasks? 

 

Thanks.

re: "When you hired more than one person, did it happen sometimes/often that the freelancers couldn't agree on the organization of the tasks?"

 

When hiring more than one person, there are basically two ways of handling this, and I have done both multiple times:

1) I hire multiple people to do exactly the same task.

2) I hire multiple people using the same job posting, and I assign them similar but not identical tasks.

 

So there is not really an issue with freelancers "agreeing on the organization of the tasks." There needs to be a project manager, whether that is the project owner/client, or an independent project manager. The project manager is the person who assigns the individual freelancers their tasks. They don't need to get together to agree on what to do.


@Bruce D wrote:

 All Upwork guarantees is that the freelancer is who he says he is, and that feedback from previous jobs is presented accurately.


 It does no such thing. Upwork neither "guarantees" the identity of the freelancer nor the genuine nature of the feedback history.

 

I agree with Petra.

I believe Upwork does FAR MORE than most websites, including most places where a person might hire someone, to verify identities. Upwork really takes this seriously. If you work here as a freelancer, you know that there are lots of hoops to jump through, and lots of things Upwork does to verify identities. Including live video conference identification checks, asking for government-issued IDs, driver's licenses, etc.

 

But Upwork does not "guarantee" the identities of freelancers of the veracity of the details on their profile pages. I believe that the overwhelming majority of freelancers here are honest, professional, decent people who want to do the right thing. But Upwork is the industry leader in its market niche, and it DOES attrack a certain percentage of dishonest people who try to "game" the system or post inaccurate information.

 

If certain identity details pertaining to a freelancer (such as where they live) is important to a client, then the client needs to do their own verification, such as by using a Skype video conference. For my own hiring, I really don't care where freelancer's live, so I don't check that kind of thing. But I totally respect the fact that some clients need verified information. I wish Upwork could "guarantee" something like this, but it can't, and does not claim to.

Hi Petra,

 

Yes, I should have said that Upwork attempts to ensure that the freelancer is who he says he is.  Based on what I had to do to register, I'd say they give it a pretty good shot.

 

I didn't say that feedback is truthful.  That's up to the client.  I said that Upwork guarantees to present feedback accurately.  Which it does, allowing for the one exception of top-rated freelancers being permitted to remove a single bad review.

 

Bruce

 

71a8c615
Community Member

Heaven,

Situation is same for me. When there was deliverable, I have cancelled the fixed cost project. Freelancer disputed. Now Freelancer is sharing deliverable to upwork team and asking money. As project is already cancelled without any deliverable, there no use of these deliverable. Today upwork has recommended AAA and it is a 3 days continuous wait to get any information.  

scioncopywriting
Community Member

I'm sorry to hear about this, Andrew as I think that something like that is very rare.

 

Upwork usually sides with the client, because that's where the money is. It's really weird that this time they didn't.

Re: "Upwork usually sides with the client, because that's where the money is."

 

Umm, there's also the 20% fee that the FL pays. So this is also where the money is.

re: "there's also the 20% fee that the FL pays. So this is also where the money is."

 

And yet... It is the client whose credit card is charged to pay for that 20% fee.

 

Keep that in mind. The actual money is all coming from the client, even though "on paper" the fee is said to be "paid" by the freelancer.

Hi Preston,

 

I guess you are right.

 

But the money isn't coming until the FL does the job. And the FL isn't doing the job until the client asks for it. 

Who came first? The hen or the egg?

 

But, yeah. I do get your point.

Hi Preston, 

 

Thanks a lot for taking the time to answer all these messages. I wanted to keep you updated about my dispute with the Indian FL : 

for those who don't know, an app requires what we call a "front end" code and a "back end" code. The app that was provided to me was as I mentioned crashing all the time and couldn't be used, that was due to the front end code. Lately, the FL agreed to send me the backend code in order to check whether or not it is well made, and it seems like it's fine. Knowing this, I agreed to give up this dispute. 

 

Thanks again. 

Hi Andrew,

 

It's good that you got the code that works from the FL and everything's fine now.

 

But, I must admit, I was a little offended by you saying 'the Indian FL'.

If tomorrow, I have an unpleasant situation with a client, I wouldn't call them 'the American client', 'the Malaysian client', or even 'the Indian client'. I would refer to them as 'the client'.

 

Thank You.

Prachi, you're right to be offended, because it is offending, sorry. it's because that's how I make the difference between the new and the old one, the Ukrainian one and the Indian one basically. I wanted to mention another thing incredibly stupid and wrong about upwork : when a freelancer has lots of good reviews, he can apparently remove bad comments like the one that I gave! This guy is actually not working alone, so in his agency were probably good devs, but apparently upwork don't consider it useful to report bad work... How can you say that upwork is siding with client, it's the complete opposite. Well take care all of you.

petra_r
Community Member


@Andrew S wrote:

 I wanted to mention another thing incredibly stupid and wrong about upwork : when a freelancer has lots of good reviews, he can apparently remove bad comments like the one that I gave!


 A maximum of once every 3 months and 10 contracts, and those are replaced by "This feedback has been removed" which is damaging enough...

Latest Articles
Learning Paths