Re: when dispute happens, my experience - Page 2

Andrew S · ‎10-30-2018

Hi,

I ordered an app on upwork to a freelancer that didn't finish his job. It was supposed to last 2 months, 8 months after his job was still unfinished, and the app full of bugs. But you know what, Upwork won't take any responsibility in it. If you don't receive a product through paypal, amazon, or any other website on this planet, you are refunded. On upwork, they think different. Let's say they innovated! Not only you are not refunded, but you receive a miserable treatment, and you have to pay an arbitration. They will tell you that it's escrow US laws... Who knows.

So basically, as a client, in case of hidden defects or late deliveries, on upwork you are just not protected at all.

Plus, when you contact dispute department, nobody will tell you how everything works, they will expect you to ask many questions, but the worst is that you won't be able to chat, or have a call with them, and they response time is... 2-3 days, then it becomes clear that upwork is very scared of its own clients. So if like me you need to finish a project asap, upwork won't care and they'll take as much time as they can.

As a good client (that I was), my disappointment is huge, this website is very well done, but upwork is just miserable when it comes about clients safety or disputes. In this situation their commission is absolutely unjustified, and I probably won't use upwork again.

Preston H · ‎11-02-2018

re: "I'm saying that Upwork isn't protecting clients in case of late delivery, and Upwork is very slow to respond when you are starting a dispute"

I completely agree with Andrew's statement.

Upwork does not protect clients regarding late delivery. Upwork can definitely be slow to respond to starting a dispute, and slow to handle a dispute.

Knowing this, my recommendation to clients are:

- Do not rely on Upwork in any way to guarantee delivery dates.

- If you have a time-sensitive task that you need done, either:

a) only hire people you have worked with before enough times to know exactly how they handle deadlines

[or]

b) hire enough people to ensure that you will receive the work in time. When I want work one quickly, I routinely hire 3 to 10 freelancers to work on the same task.

- Plan to never, ever initiate a dispute. This will help you manage projects effectively, if you know that Upwork and its dispute process are not some kind of "escape clause" you can fall back on. Rather than planning to possibly file a dispute if something doesn't go right, it means hiring enough freelancers, evaluating their work (or having your project manager do so) sufficiently so that you know who to keep working with and who to STOP working with.

Andrew S · ‎11-03-2018

Hi Preston,

What you described is exactly the mindset I had before starting with this developer. But you mentioned an interesting point that I never tried and didn't think possible in terms of coding : hiring more than one developer... I have no idea how possible that would be in the creation of an app, in terms of organization. When you hired more than one person, did it happen sometimes/often that the freelancers couldn't agree on the organization of the tasks?

Thanks.

Preston H · ‎11-06-2018

re: "When you hired more than one person, did it happen sometimes/often that the freelancers couldn't agree on the organization of the tasks?"

When hiring more than one person, there are basically two ways of handling this, and I have done both multiple times:

1) I hire multiple people to do exactly the same task.

2) I hire multiple people using the same job posting, and I assign them similar but not identical tasks.

So there is not really an issue with freelancers "agreeing on the organization of the tasks." There needs to be a project manager, whether that is the project owner/client, or an independent project manager. The project manager is the person who assigns the individual freelancers their tasks. They don't need to get together to agree on what to do.

Petra R · ‎11-02-2018

@Bruce D wrote:
All Upwork guarantees is that the freelancer is who he says he is, and that feedback from previous jobs is presented accurately.

It does no such thing. Upwork neither "guarantees" the identity of the freelancer nor the genuine nature of the feedback history.

Preston H · ‎11-02-2018

I agree with Petra.

I believe Upwork does FAR MORE than most websites, including most places where a person might hire someone, to verify identities. Upwork really takes this seriously. If you work here as a freelancer, you know that there are lots of hoops to jump through, and lots of things Upwork does to verify identities. Including live video conference identification checks, asking for government-issued IDs, driver's licenses, etc.

But Upwork does not "guarantee" the identities of freelancers of the veracity of the details on their profile pages. I believe that the overwhelming majority of freelancers here are honest, professional, decent people who want to do the right thing. But Upwork is the industry leader in its market niche, and it DOES attrack a certain percentage of dishonest people who try to "game" the system or post inaccurate information.

If certain identity details pertaining to a freelancer (such as where they live) is important to a client, then the client needs to do their own verification, such as by using a Skype video conference. For my own hiring, I really don't care where freelancer's live, so I don't check that kind of thing. But I totally respect the fact that some clients need verified information. I wish Upwork could "guarantee" something like this, but it can't, and does not claim to.

Bruce D · ‎11-02-2018

Hi Petra,

Yes, I should have said that Upwork attempts to ensure that the freelancer is who he says he is. Based on what I had to do to register, I'd say they give it a pretty good shot.

I didn't say that feedback is truthful. That's up to the client. I said that Upwork guarantees to present feedback accurately. Which it does, allowing for the one exception of top-rated freelancers being permitted to remove a single bad review.

Bruce

Vijay S · ‎12-07-2018

Heaven,

Situation is same for me. When there was deliverable, I have cancelled the fixed cost project. Freelancer disputed. Now Freelancer is sharing deliverable to upwork team and asking money. As project is already cancelled without any deliverable, there no use of these deliverable. Today upwork has recommended AAA and it is a 3 days continuous wait to get any information.

Konstantinos K · ‎11-06-2018

I'm sorry to hear about this, Andrew as I think that something like that is very rare.

Upwork usually sides with the client, because that's where the money is. It's really weird that this time they didn't.

Prachi T · ‎11-06-2018

Re: "Upwork usually sides with the client, because that's where the money is."

Umm, there's also the 20% fee that the FL pays. So this is also where the money is.

Preston H · ‎11-06-2018

re: "there's also the 20% fee that the FL pays. So this is also where the money is."

And yet... It is the client whose credit card is charged to pay for that 20% fee.

Keep that in mind. The actual money is all coming from the client, even though "on paper" the fee is said to be "paid" by the freelancer.

Prachi T · ‎11-06-2018

Hi Preston,

I guess you are right.

But the money isn't coming until the FL does the job. And the FL isn't doing the job until the client asks for it.

Who came first? The hen or the egg?

But, yeah. I do get your point.

Andrew S · ‎11-06-2018

Hi Preston,

Thanks a lot for taking the time to answer all these messages. I wanted to keep you updated about my dispute with the Indian FL :

for those who don't know, an app requires what we call a "front end" code and a "back end" code. The app that was provided to me was as I mentioned crashing all the time and couldn't be used, that was due to the front end code. Lately, the FL agreed to send me the backend code in order to check whether or not it is well made, and it seems like it's fine. Knowing this, I agreed to give up this dispute.

Thanks again.

Prachi T · ‎11-06-2018

Hi Andrew,

It's good that you got the code that works from the FL and everything's fine now.

But, I must admit, I was a little offended by you saying 'the Indian FL'.

If tomorrow, I have an unpleasant situation with a client, I wouldn't call them 'the American client', 'the Malaysian client', or even 'the Indian client'. I would refer to them as 'the client'.

Thank You.

Andrew S · ‎11-07-2018

Prachi, you're right to be offended, because it is offending, sorry. it's because that's how I make the difference between the new and the old one, the Ukrainian one and the Indian one basically. I wanted to mention another thing incredibly stupid and wrong about upwork : when a freelancer has lots of good reviews, he can apparently remove bad comments like the one that I gave! This guy is actually not working alone, so in his agency were probably good devs, but apparently upwork don't consider it useful to report bad work... How can you say that upwork is siding with client, it's the complete opposite. Well take care all of you.

Petra R · ‎11-07-2018

@Andrew S wrote:
I wanted to mention another thing incredibly stupid and wrong about upwork : when a freelancer has lots of good reviews, he can apparently remove bad comments like the one that I gave!

A maximum of once every 3 months and 10 contracts, and those are replaced by "This feedback has been removed" which is damaging enough...

Nichola L · ‎11-07-2018

@Petra R wrote:
@Andrew S wrote:
I wanted to mention another thing incredibly stupid and wrong about upwork : when a freelancer has lots of good reviews, he can apparently remove bad comments like the one that I gave!
A maximum of once every 3 months and 10 contracts, and those are replaced by "This feedback has been removed" which is damaging enough...
__________________________

Yes, but in some cases, if it is a first-time client, and a top-rated freelancer gets the job, the FL pays 10% rather than rather than 20% and can request feedback removal on any number of these kinds of jobs. I don't know if this was the case with the OP.

Petra R · ‎11-11-2018

@Nichola L wrote:
@Petra R wrote:
A maximum of once every 3 months and 10 contracts, and those are replaced by "This feedback has been removed" which is damaging enough...
__________________________

Yes, but in some cases, if it is a first-time client, and a top-rated freelancer gets the job, the FL pays 10% rather than rather than 20% and can request feedback removal on any number of these kinds of jobs. I don't know if this was the case with the OP.

That was a short term trial and was discontinued, as far as I am aware, months, if not years ago.

Nichola L · ‎11-11-2018

@Petra R wrote:
@Nichola L wrote:
@Petra R wrote:
A maximum of once every 3 months and 10 contracts, and those are replaced by "This feedback has been removed" which is damaging enough...
__________________________

Yes, but in some cases, if it is a first-time client, and a top-rated freelancer gets the job, the FL pays 10% rather than rather than 20% and can request feedback removal on any number of these kinds of jobs. I don't know if this was the case with the OP.

That was a short term trial and was discontinued, as far as I am aware, months, if not years ago.

_____________________________

In which case Upwork should remove it from the help pages as it is misleading for both clients and freelancers:

"Important Things To Remember:

Your visible JSS may not change as a result of the feedback removal — Why?
For jobs that are part of the "Reduced Fees with New Clients" promotion, there's no limit to how many times you request to remove feedback. To request feedback removal for one of these jobs, please include that the contract is a "Special Offer Job" in your request.
For agencies, the request must be submitted by the agency owner, business manager, or agency admin."

Petra R · ‎11-12-2018

@Nichola L wrote:
@Petra R wrote:
@Nichola L wrote:
@Petra R wrote:
A maximum of once every 3 months and 10 contracts, and those are replaced by "This feedback has been removed" which is damaging enough...
__________________________

Yes, but in some cases, if it is a first-time client, and a top-rated freelancer gets the job, the FL pays 10% rather than rather than 20% and can request feedback removal on any number of these kinds of jobs. I don't know if this was the case with the OP.

That was a short term trial and was discontinued, as far as I am aware, months, if not years ago.
_____________________________

In which case Upwork should remove it from the help pages as it is misleading for both clients and freelancers:

"Important Things To Remember:
Your visible JSS may not change as a result of the feedback removal — Why?
For jobs that are part of the "Reduced Fees with New Clients" promotion, there's no limit to how many times you request to remove feedback. To request feedback removal for one of these jobs, please include that the contract is a "Special Offer Job" in your request.
For agencies, the request must be submitted by the agency owner, business manager, or agency admin."

Not really as some of the contracts that were opened under the initiative could conceivably still be open.

But as such contracts have not been able to be initiated since spring 2017 there won't be many.

Prachi T · ‎11-07-2018

Thank you for clarifying, Andrew.

Sorry, it seems I judged too quickly.

Goran V · ‎12-07-2018

Hi everybody, I wanted to give news about what happened to me next, wrong things happened again.

I recruited a new agency to finish my app on upwork and just like some others agencies, they found that the code that failing coder did was unusable, which is obvious when we test the app (crashing all the time).

So I went on a dispute with the failing coder (let's call him this way), I was asking 3000 usd (which is the amount that I sent him) and he asked 1000 usd (which is the amount of the milestone on which he was working when I ended contract, that milestone was finished at 10%).

The dispute took place and after a month waiting, I've lost! And of course, because the amount of the dispute is under 75 k dollars, the arbitrator has no obligation to give ANY sort of explanation for his choice! They just tell you, basically : "hey, you lost, now shut up and go away". So basically, we don't even know if the arbitrator even had a look at this file, it seems more like lottery in my eyes. So now I have to pay 1000 usd for a milestone that was finished at 10% and for an app that doesn't work.

So if you wanna start a dispute you should know that these arbitration guys are only interested in the 800 usd payment that you will make. No more.

Also, note that the arbitrators aren't lawyers, they have no specific certifications except the "arbitrator certificate" which is a vague certification not related to what you're working with... So if you have a problem with a code which is terribly done, they won't be able to notice it. Still I have sent over 12 videos showing how the app was constantly crashing and not working, that wasn't enough.

In addition to it, from a day to another upwork closed the account of the new agency I was working with. Contract was going very well, they were very good at coding and upwork decided, without a reason, to end up this contract. The agency tried to contact them in order to ask them why, they just never answered them or even I.

So... I would say, if everything goes right on upwork, then it's perfect, but things better not go wrong and don't go to arbitration unless you want your cased to be "judged" by **Edited for Community Guidelines** that are just playing lottery.

And for the people here who adore upwork, don't fool yourself you adore some people that are hiding in case of problems and that will be everything but helping you.

Vladimir G · ‎12-07-2018

Hi Andrew,

I'm sorry to hear about the issue that arose on your contract and your dissatisfaction with the dispute process and final decision.

I checked the communication you had with two of our Dispute agents and see that in both instances our team described in detail the whole process and responded to all your questions, reiterating the facts about the dispute process, the steps and outcomes in different scenarios you asked about and assisted you the fullest extent. Please feel free to follow up on your open ticket if you'd like to receive further clarification.

Since our team already shared the information with you in a few places on your tickets, I'd like to just clarify a few points you mentioned here, both for your and the benefit of other users who might not be familiar with the dispute process.

So if you wanna start a dispute you should know that these arbitration guys are only interested in the 800 usd payment that you will make. No more.

The fee for arbitration is $875 and is split three ways, with the client, the freelancer and Upwork each paying $291 of the fee.

The dispute took place and after a month waiting, I've lost! And of course, because the amount of the dispute is under 75 k dollars, the arbitrator has no obligation to give ANY sort of explanation for his choice! They just tell you, basically : "hey, you lost, now shut up and go away". So basically, we don't even know if the arbitrator even had a look at this file, it seems more like lottery in my eyes. So now I have to pay 1000 usd for a milestone that was finished at 10% and for an app that doesn't work.

Also, note that the arbitrators aren't lawyers, they have no specific certifications except the "arbitrator certificate" which is a vague certification not related to what you're working with... So if you have a problem with a code which is terribly done, they won't be able to notice it. Still I have sent over 12 videos showing how the app was constantly crashing and not working, that wasn't enough.

Arbitration is provided by American Arbitration Association (AAA), a neutral third-party arbitration provider.

You are asked to agree that the arbitrator is authorized to decide the Dispute within its discretion. You agree that the arbitrator’s award is final, that it may be entered in and enforced by any court of competent jurisdiction, and that if the arbitrator delivers notice of any award to Upwork, then Upwork and Upwork Escrow have the right to treat such notice as conclusive and act in reliance thereon.

Users can check the arbitration rules, detailed procedures and fees in the Appendix A of our Fixed-Price Escrow Instructions.

For further reading, I'd advise checking Valeria's description of the dispute process posted here, outlined in our Help Articles and separately in our ToS (for Fixed-Price and Hourly contracts). As always, feel free to follow up here with any questions you might have.

~ Vladimir

Andrew S · ‎12-07-2018

Vladimir,

I get your point, but if I may say, you are trying to hide behind terms and conditions and that's a little easy. You really think that someone who is managing a company has the time to : read your terms and conditions + read the ones upwork entirely + ask you questions knowing you take 2-3 days to answer, and that you are having a hard time to read and answer simple questions? I don't know if you realize what you are asking...

For my part this is not a realistic approach though it is a legal one, and that's what trust is here for. I trust upwork to bring me a fair dispute, and that didn't happen, so for me upwork is almost scamming, and too expensive for what it is. Plus, even in the dispute description given by the adr, I didn't see that arbitration would be just a lottery -because yes, that's what it is-. This is a pure scam, if you don't trust me check the app that my previous dev did, you will see on your own how terrible it is. Any professionals that checked his work agreed to say it was a huge mess, how can the adr be taken serious?

Plus, the thing that I mentioned before (you really took care not to answer this) and which is even more shocking is your tyrannical behavior towards people to whom you close accounts from a day to another WITHOUT ANY EXPLANATION, without notifying it first... Who do you think you are? Do you kow the damages provoked by this kind of sudden account closing in my contract with this developer? Luckily I had his phone number and we've been able to continue our work outside of upwork, but if I didn't have his phone, all his work would be lost, because if I want to let another person code instead of him, I need the first developer to explain his code to the second one. And if you close his account, well you don't allow him to explain anything and that's very damageable for me as well.

I understand you are a moderator and you want to bring a good image of upwork no matter what but reality is that, again, if you have a problem on upwork with a FL, upwork will treat you like a nothing -no possibility of calling you or chatting with competent persons- and they will take care that you would be in an even worse position than the one you had initially.

Vladimir G · ‎12-07-2018

Hi Andrew,

You are correct, I didn't address that point from your comment since it was unrelated to the dispute case you were discussing. I checked earlier and saw our team did respond to your support request and shared all the information we can provide on your freelancer's account status and reasons for their account suspension, which was closed in line with Upwork ToS. Unfortunately, we can't provide any additional details.

Again, I'm sorry to hear you unhappy with the service you received and found the agents who communicated with you and the information they provided lacking. We do value your feedback and while we're always trying to improve the service we're offering to our users, I'd like to reiterate that I have reviewed the complete communication you had with our team on both of your tickets and found the agents' performance, response time and commitment admirable. As mentioned, feel free to follow up on your open ticket in case you have any further questions that entail sharing private information and our team will assist you further.

~ Vladimir

Andrew S · ‎12-07-2018

Dimitry,

"Unfortunately, we can't provide any additional details." Yes i know that, because I've been asking upwork maybe 3 times. But don't you think that FL deserves to know why his account has been closed? You just closed his account without telling HIM why? I understand it is your policy to know disclose the reasons of FL's account's shut down, but where is it written that you can shut down an account without a reason because there doesn't seem to be any?