when dispute happens, my experience - Page 2

dc53181b · ‎10-30-2018

Hi,

I ordered an app on upwork to a freelancer that didn't finish his job. It was supposed to last 2 months, 8 months after his job was still unfinished, and the app full of bugs. But you know what, Upwork won't take any responsibility in it. If you don't receive a product through paypal, amazon, or any other website on this planet, you are refunded. On upwork, they think different. Let's say they innovated! Not only you are not refunded, but you receive a miserable treatment, and you have to pay an arbitration. They will tell you that it's escrow US laws... Who knows.

So basically, as a client, in case of hidden defects or late deliveries, on upwork you are just not protected at all.

Plus, when you contact dispute department, nobody will tell you how everything works, they will expect you to ask many questions, but the worst is that you won't be able to chat, or have a call with them, and they response time is... 2-3 days, then it becomes clear that upwork is very scared of its own clients. So if like me you need to finish a project asap, upwork won't care and they'll take as much time as they can.

As a good client (that I was), my disappointment is huge, this website is very well done, but upwork is just miserable when it comes about clients safety or disputes. In this situation their commission is absolutely unjustified, and I probably won't use upwork again.

colettelewis · ‎11-07-2018

@Petra R wrote:
@Andrew S wrote:
I wanted to mention another thing incredibly stupid and wrong about upwork : when a freelancer has lots of good reviews, he can apparently remove bad comments like the one that I gave!
A maximum of once every 3 months and 10 contracts, and those are replaced by "This feedback has been removed" which is damaging enough...
__________________________

Yes, but in some cases, if it is a first-time client, and a top-rated freelancer gets the job, the FL pays 10% rather than rather than 20% and can request feedback removal on any number of these kinds of jobs. I don't know if this was the case with the OP.

petra_r · ‎11-11-2018

@Nichola L wrote:
@Petra R wrote:
A maximum of once every 3 months and 10 contracts, and those are replaced by "This feedback has been removed" which is damaging enough...
__________________________

Yes, but in some cases, if it is a first-time client, and a top-rated freelancer gets the job, the FL pays 10% rather than rather than 20% and can request feedback removal on any number of these kinds of jobs. I don't know if this was the case with the OP.

That was a short term trial and was discontinued, as far as I am aware, months, if not years ago.

colettelewis · ‎11-11-2018

@Petra R wrote:
@Nichola L wrote:
@Petra R wrote:
A maximum of once every 3 months and 10 contracts, and those are replaced by "This feedback has been removed" which is damaging enough...
__________________________

Yes, but in some cases, if it is a first-time client, and a top-rated freelancer gets the job, the FL pays 10% rather than rather than 20% and can request feedback removal on any number of these kinds of jobs. I don't know if this was the case with the OP.

That was a short term trial and was discontinued, as far as I am aware, months, if not years ago.

_____________________________

In which case Upwork should remove it from the help pages as it is misleading for both clients and freelancers:

"Important Things To Remember:

Your visible JSS may not change as a result of the feedback removal — Why?
For jobs that are part of the "Reduced Fees with New Clients" promotion, there's no limit to how many times you request to remove feedback. To request feedback removal for one of these jobs, please include that the contract is a "Special Offer Job" in your request.
For agencies, the request must be submitted by the agency owner, business manager, or agency admin."

petra_r · ‎11-12-2018

@Nichola L wrote:
@Petra R wrote:
@Nichola L wrote:
@Petra R wrote:
A maximum of once every 3 months and 10 contracts, and those are replaced by "This feedback has been removed" which is damaging enough...
__________________________

Yes, but in some cases, if it is a first-time client, and a top-rated freelancer gets the job, the FL pays 10% rather than rather than 20% and can request feedback removal on any number of these kinds of jobs. I don't know if this was the case with the OP.

That was a short term trial and was discontinued, as far as I am aware, months, if not years ago.
_____________________________

In which case Upwork should remove it from the help pages as it is misleading for both clients and freelancers:

"Important Things To Remember:
Your visible JSS may not change as a result of the feedback removal — Why?
For jobs that are part of the "Reduced Fees with New Clients" promotion, there's no limit to how many times you request to remove feedback. To request feedback removal for one of these jobs, please include that the contract is a "Special Offer Job" in your request.
For agencies, the request must be submitted by the agency owner, business manager, or agency admin."

Not really as some of the contracts that were opened under the initiative could conceivably still be open.

But as such contracts have not been able to be initiated since spring 2017 there won't be many.

prachi163 · ‎11-07-2018

Thank you for clarifying, Andrew.

Sorry, it seems I judged too quickly.

dc53181b · ‎12-07-2018

Hi everybody, I wanted to give news about what happened to me next, wrong things happened again.

I recruited a new agency to finish my app on upwork and just like some others agencies, they found that the code that failing coder did was unusable, which is obvious when we test the app (crashing all the time).

So I went on a dispute with the failing coder (let's call him this way), I was asking 3000 usd (which is the amount that I sent him) and he asked 1000 usd (which is the amount of the milestone on which he was working when I ended contract, that milestone was finished at 10%).

The dispute took place and after a month waiting, I've lost! And of course, because the amount of the dispute is under 75 k dollars, the arbitrator has no obligation to give ANY sort of explanation for his choice! They just tell you, basically : "hey, you lost, now shut up and go away". So basically, we don't even know if the arbitrator even had a look at this file, it seems more like lottery in my eyes. So now I have to pay 1000 usd for a milestone that was finished at 10% and for an app that doesn't work.

So if you wanna start a dispute you should know that these arbitration guys are only interested in the 800 usd payment that you will make. No more.

Also, note that the arbitrators aren't lawyers, they have no specific certifications except the "arbitrator certificate" which is a vague certification not related to what you're working with... So if you have a problem with a code which is terribly done, they won't be able to notice it. Still I have sent over 12 videos showing how the app was constantly crashing and not working, that wasn't enough.

In addition to it, from a day to another upwork closed the account of the new agency I was working with. Contract was going very well, they were very good at coding and upwork decided, without a reason, to end up this contract. The agency tried to contact them in order to ask them why, they just never answered them or even I.

So... I would say, if everything goes right on upwork, then it's perfect, but things better not go wrong and don't go to arbitration unless you want your cased to be "judged" by **Edited for Community Guidelines** that are just playing lottery.

And for the people here who adore upwork, don't fool yourself you adore some people that are hiding in case of problems and that will be everything but helping you.

VladimirG · ‎12-07-2018

Hi Andrew,

I'm sorry to hear about the issue that arose on your contract and your dissatisfaction with the dispute process and final decision.

I checked the communication you had with two of our Dispute agents and see that in both instances our team described in detail the whole process and responded to all your questions, reiterating the facts about the dispute process, the steps and outcomes in different scenarios you asked about and assisted you the fullest extent. Please feel free to follow up on your open ticket if you'd like to receive further clarification.

Since our team already shared the information with you in a few places on your tickets, I'd like to just clarify a few points you mentioned here, both for your and the benefit of other users who might not be familiar with the dispute process.

So if you wanna start a dispute you should know that these arbitration guys are only interested in the 800 usd payment that you will make. No more.

The fee for arbitration is $875 and is split three ways, with the client, the freelancer and Upwork each paying $291 of the fee.

The dispute took place and after a month waiting, I've lost! And of course, because the amount of the dispute is under 75 k dollars, the arbitrator has no obligation to give ANY sort of explanation for his choice! They just tell you, basically : "hey, you lost, now shut up and go away". So basically, we don't even know if the arbitrator even had a look at this file, it seems more like lottery in my eyes. So now I have to pay 1000 usd for a milestone that was finished at 10% and for an app that doesn't work.

Also, note that the arbitrators aren't lawyers, they have no specific certifications except the "arbitrator certificate" which is a vague certification not related to what you're working with... So if you have a problem with a code which is terribly done, they won't be able to notice it. Still I have sent over 12 videos showing how the app was constantly crashing and not working, that wasn't enough.

Arbitration is provided by American Arbitration Association (AAA), a neutral third-party arbitration provider.

You are asked to agree that the arbitrator is authorized to decide the Dispute within its discretion. You agree that the arbitrator’s award is final, that it may be entered in and enforced by any court of competent jurisdiction, and that if the arbitrator delivers notice of any award to Upwork, then Upwork and Upwork Escrow have the right to treat such notice as conclusive and act in reliance thereon.

Users can check the arbitration rules, detailed procedures and fees in the Appendix A of our Fixed-Price Escrow Instructions.

For further reading, I'd advise checking Valeria's description of the dispute process posted here, outlined in our Help Articles and separately in our ToS (for Fixed-Price and Hourly contracts). As always, feel free to follow up here with any questions you might have.

~ Vladimir

dc53181b · ‎12-07-2018

Vladimir,

I get your point, but if I may say, you are trying to hide behind terms and conditions and that's a little easy. You really think that someone who is managing a company has the time to : read your terms and conditions + read the ones upwork entirely + ask you questions knowing you take 2-3 days to answer, and that you are having a hard time to read and answer simple questions? I don't know if you realize what you are asking...

For my part this is not a realistic approach though it is a legal one, and that's what trust is here for. I trust upwork to bring me a fair dispute, and that didn't happen, so for me upwork is almost scamming, and too expensive for what it is. Plus, even in the dispute description given by the adr, I didn't see that arbitration would be just a lottery -because yes, that's what it is-. This is a pure scam, if you don't trust me check the app that my previous dev did, you will see on your own how terrible it is. Any professionals that checked his work agreed to say it was a huge mess, how can the adr be taken serious?

Plus, the thing that I mentioned before (you really took care not to answer this) and which is even more shocking is your tyrannical behavior towards people to whom you close accounts from a day to another WITHOUT ANY EXPLANATION, without notifying it first... Who do you think you are? Do you kow the damages provoked by this kind of sudden account closing in my contract with this developer? Luckily I had his phone number and we've been able to continue our work outside of upwork, but if I didn't have his phone, all his work would be lost, because if I want to let another person code instead of him, I need the first developer to explain his code to the second one. And if you close his account, well you don't allow him to explain anything and that's very damageable for me as well.

I understand you are a moderator and you want to bring a good image of upwork no matter what but reality is that, again, if you have a problem on upwork with a FL, upwork will treat you like a nothing -no possibility of calling you or chatting with competent persons- and they will take care that you would be in an even worse position than the one you had initially.

VladimirG · ‎12-07-2018

Hi Andrew,

You are correct, I didn't address that point from your comment since it was unrelated to the dispute case you were discussing. I checked earlier and saw our team did respond to your support request and shared all the information we can provide on your freelancer's account status and reasons for their account suspension, which was closed in line with Upwork ToS. Unfortunately, we can't provide any additional details.

Again, I'm sorry to hear you unhappy with the service you received and found the agents who communicated with you and the information they provided lacking. We do value your feedback and while we're always trying to improve the service we're offering to our users, I'd like to reiterate that I have reviewed the complete communication you had with our team on both of your tickets and found the agents' performance, response time and commitment admirable. As mentioned, feel free to follow up on your open ticket in case you have any further questions that entail sharing private information and our team will assist you further.

~ Vladimir

dc53181b · ‎12-07-2018

Dimitry,

"Unfortunately, we can't provide any additional details." Yes i know that, because I've been asking upwork maybe 3 times. But don't you think that FL deserves to know why his account has been closed? You just closed his account without telling HIM why? I understand it is your policy to know disclose the reasons of FL's account's shut down, but where is it written that you can shut down an account without a reason because there doesn't seem to be any?

dc53181b · ‎05-17-2019

Hi everyone,

I'm just writing this for the people that are quite new to upwork so that they wouldn't do my mistakes, and so that they would know that upwork is a very good and in the same time a very bad platform.

Basically on upwork everything goes well until you have problems with a FL.

First thing you should be careful about is the hourly payment, and its automatic renewal which isn't clearly indicated (how convenient). If by mistake it's turned on, and the FL didn't work at all, you'll pay and not get refunded.

Second thing, about the dispute : you have to know what is what upwork calls a "dispute". Their way of functioning is about as backward as the middle age justice. If a dispute happens between a FL and you, they will ask an independent company called the AAA to make an arbitration. But you need to know how the AAA works... they just pick a random dude up, who doesn't know anything about the topic you're dealing with (for my part it was coding), who doesn't know anything about justice. That random dude will choose whether you are in the wrong or not. After making his choice based on whether he likes your name or not, whether he is in a good mood or not, he won't have to justify his choice to anyone. It's just a guy that is paid 700 $ to randomely choose a winner and loser. You will pay around 200 $, upwork 200 $ and the other party 200$. Incredible? Yes. It's like asking a monkey to make a choice, you'll have a 50% chance to win, and that's how upwork works.

So before you spend a lot of money on upwork if that's your intention, you'd better not get into a dispute otherwise you'll make a jump of 2000 years in the past and trust me you don't want that.

petra_r · ‎05-17-2019

Is this still the same dispute you were ranting about back in October?

Considering how completely wrong you got the facts about arbitration, presumably you did not go to arbitration back then?

dc53181b · ‎05-17-2019

Seriously? Is that why you wrote? Just to say "you are wrong"... you need a little more than that. I made the dispute if you need proofs I can take screenshots, but if you are here just to blindly defend upwork and totally deny its defaults, then it's better saying nothing.

dc53181b · ‎05-17-2019

Petra, I lost about 6 k $ in this, I spent a month in the arbitration I think I know what I'm talking about. If I'm wrong, you need facts because I'm telling what I've seen only.

colettelewis · ‎05-17-2019

Andrew S wrote:
Petra, I lost about 6 k $ in this, I spent a month in the arbitration I think I know what I'm talking about. If I'm wrong, you need facts because I'm telling what I've seen onl

Andrew,

Petra was not defending Upwork. She was stating a fact. Even if you have been through a dispute and arbitration, in these few posts you have given entirely the wrong information about how the process works.

In fact, in one of your first posts, you stated you did not have time to read the ToS because you were too busy. If you had read them, you could probably avoided all this dramatic hair-tearing.

You also stated in another post that you went on working off-site with a freelancer whose account had been suspended. This too is a serious violation of Upwork’s terms and conditions and I am surprised your account has not also been suspended.

dc53181b · ‎05-17-2019

Nichola,

You do the same than Petra : you tell me that I'm wrong but you're unable to tell me why... welcome to upwork.

"ou also stated in another post that you went on working off-site with a freelancer whose account had been suspended. This too is a serious violation of Upwork’s terms and conditions and I am surprised your account has not also been suspended. "= > are you kidding me? If you suspended him, I'm allowed to work with him of course that's none of upwork's problem. By the way with this FL it went super fine.

kochubei_valeria · ‎05-17-2019

Andrew and others,

A few replies have been removed or edited in this conversation as they were in violation of Upwork Community Guidelines. Please, note that personal attacks, deliberately disruptive and negative statements about Upwork or any other disparaging comments will not be tolerated in this Community.

The conversation has also been merged to the original thread about the dispute. I see that Upwork Customer Support, Mediation Teams and Vladimir have clarified how the dispute and arbitration process works. We won't be able to further discuss the freelancer's account status, however, this help article lists most common violations that can result in account suspension.

Thank you.

~ Valeria

colettelewis · ‎05-17-2019

Thank you Valeria,

Just one more point needs clarifying. I understood from the ToS, that a client cannot hire and pay a person who has been sourced from this site away from Upwork (unless they pay the opt-out fee). Does this rule apply to continuing hiring a freelancer who has been suspended?

Just so that everyone is on the same page.

kochubei_valeria · ‎05-17-2019

Nichola,

Yes, that applies to a freelancer who has been suspended. We will consider exceptions on a case by case basis.

~ Valeria

colettelewis · ‎05-17-2019

Valeria K wrote:
Nichola,

Yes, that applies to a freelancer who has been suspended. We will consider exceptions on a case by case basis.

_____________________________

??

What kind of exceptions? There seem to be just too many loopholes in the ToS for it to be even halfway believable.

Some people can cheat academically, some people can't. Some clients can hire suspended FLs off-site, some can't. This really does smack of Animal Farm where some animals are more equal than others.

I've noticed that these exceptions to infractions rarely apply to freelancers, but very often to clients who have spent a lot of money on the site despite their dodgy ethics.

In this particular case, the message is seriously difficult to decipher.

reinierb · ‎05-18-2019

@kochubei_valeria wrote:
Nichola,

Yes, that applies to a freelancer who has been suspended. We will consider exceptions on a case by case basis.

I can understand this applying to freelancers who are suspended temporarily, provided off course both the client and freelancer know that the suspension is temporary.

However, how is Upwork affected when a freelancer's account is terminated? How can the ToS be made to apply to a client when his (former) freelancer is no longer working on the Upwork platform? Will Upwork hold the client to the non-circumvention rule for two years, reckoned from the date the contract with the terminated freelancer was established?

dc53181b · ‎05-17-2019

It's too easy to remove what is uncomfortable for you to see...