Asking for writing samples that for part of the job

[monagonzalez]

I am getting tired of reading about jobs, that are asking people who apply to do a writing test that involves a part of the job. For example, I just saw another job about a book, then in the job application requirements, asking people to write the first chapter around the theme in the outline. I refer here to fixed rate jobs. When i first started with Upwork, while it was then Odesk, we were paid to take tests if the test was related to material they could possibly use for their project. Now it is just voracious exploitation. I could just as well make an outline for a book, then put my add on Upwork and for a test, ask applicants to write the first chapter around the theme I provide, pretending it's so I can see their writing style. In this way I amass several copies of the first chapter and can get the best parts of all the applicants' materials, and make my own first chapter for free. 

I finally decided today to flag a job and say it is asking for free work, because it did precisely the above, making it look like a way to apply for the job. 

I hope Upwork can look into this and look into the jobs and see if they consider this a part of good practice. Applicants should only be required to submit existing work samples, not ask to do their work as a sample.

[monagonzalez]

I have another beef so I'm just posting it like a reply to my earlier beef about writing samples. I have issues with people who hire and promise a five star posting if they take the job, as an excuse for a low price. This is dishonest and insulting and I wonder if Upwork would provide a standard regarding this, plus the issue i posted earlier.

[l_pouncey]

Mona G,

I recently received a reply, regarding the 5 star feedback.  That has been done away with and replaced with the JSS; therefore, the 5 star feedback makes no difference.

[monagonzalez]

Oh, what is JSS?

[l_pouncey]

Don't quote me, but I believe it stands for Job Score Status.

I'm not sure exactly how that is viewed. Maybe someone else can enlighten us in that respect.

[l_pouncey]

Mona G,

JSS = Job Success Score or Job Success Status

This is located at the top of your "Stats" page, under Client satisfaction. 

Hopefully, one day I will have a JSS.

[l_pouncey]

Hi Mona G.

I was wrong about the 5 star feedback.  

Here's the link to the thread I was referring to:  https://community.upwork.com/t5/Freelancers/5-Star-Feedback-Offer/m-p/139697#U139697

I've received more feedback since my last post here.

[allpurposewriter]

Yes, Mona, I see your point. On the other hand, I have on occason scampered after very quick assignments to puff up credentials. I do book-length projects now almost exclusively and I look over my shoulder and realize my last 5-star rating was six-months ago or longer. So, I snap off a few quick gigs in order to sound more current. 
However, being offered a 5-star ratiing in lieu of pay is a pretty cheap trick. It's like the very common ruse of promising steady work if your first assignment is above reproach. That's just code for: We pay cheap and hope this hollow enticement will get you to work for us. 

Regarding writing samples ... back to the original question here ...it always galls me after 25 years of writing and literally tens of thousands of writing samples available (I wrote 33,000 short articles for UPI over an eight-year stretch) I still get people asking me to do some kind of writing test. The standard retort for that one is "Would you ask a plumber to fix a toilet for free just to figure out whether he' or she is good enough to hire?" And Upwork has the very unethical option (questionable, anyway) of returning your pay to the client if a dispute arises. So, what are these clients after if not a freebie?

When you hire people you take a risk. If they do the work, you have to pay them.  Who said that? Oh, that's right: A fellow named Abraham Lincoln.

[l_pouncey]

Mona G,

I understand exactly what you are saying.

I believe the same practices are going on with a lot of the Data Entry/Spreadsheet jobs. 

Why should the client hire anyone, when their "sample" is worked by us freelancers and then provided with applications as samples of our work.

[monagonzalez]

Yes, Linda P, it is becomiing such a regular practice, I have noticed, as I have recently be scanning job options. I hope that Upwork will establish a policy regarding this. For example, writing samples should not be connected to the job. If they want a sample connected to the job, it must be paid for. However,  it may be possible that even if they want a writing sample not connected to the job, the sample is connected to another job that they are not advertising. So these sample tests should be paid for whether they are connected to the advertised job or not. Otherwise, if the applicant has writing samples online, that should suffice. as fair practice.

[l_pouncey]

Mona G, I agree with you.

[petra_r]

My standard answer to requests for significant test work for small contracts is this:

"Hi XYZ, thanks for your message, I'd be more than happy to write / translate / whatever chapter one of your ABC.

It's just over 1000 words, would you prefer to set up the test contract on an hourly or on a per word basis? My hourly rate is $ XX.XX per hour and my rate per word is $ X.XX. I look forward to hearing from you!"

They can go for it or not. Their choice.

For me personally it also depends on the value of the contract. A contract for a few hundred Dollars won't tempt me to do any unpaid testing. For a contract worth several thousand I'll jump through a few more hoops to win it.

[lysis10]

After working on these bidding platforms for a couple of years, I've mitigated my rage by just closing the window and moving on to the next gig.

The only time I rage is when I apply and they waste my time by trying to be sneaky about asking for free work. It happens rarely, but it happens. 

The more picky I am about jobs, the less rage I feel. Serious buyers don't have time for that garbage.

[yitwail]

Linda P wrote earlier, 'I recently received a reply, regarding the 5 star feedback.  That has been done away with and replaced with the JSS; therefore, the 5 star feedback makes no difference.'

That's not entirely true. If a client takes the time to look at a freelancer profile page, they still see the freelancer's 5 star feedback in the Work History and Feedback section, and if I were a client, I would hesitate if it didn't show mostly 5 stars. Also, to the best of my knowledge, 5 star feedback accounts for a small percentage of the JS score, but it's no longer all-important as it once was.

[lindseyhgregory]

Totally not related to the OP; but as a Walking Dead fan, sometimes I read JSS as Just Survive Somehow. 

Which is strangely pertinent here, now that I think about it.

[battershall-ramo]

Just don't bother to do them. There's always more jobs and few jobs are really worth worrying about losing.

[calvert-maya]

Thanks for the warning! 

I am new to Upwork and I have submitted samples and not had any joy on some of the job posting, I guess the more I use upwork, sign in and submit proposals, the more I am learning 

Maya 

[lysis10]

No contract, no workie.

No escrow, no workie.

No valid CC, no workie.

I'm having a bad week this week, and someone I even took the time to chat with on the phone pinged me today to say "where is the work?" Ummm, you never accepted the bid and set up a contract? This person is from Elance, so come on man...you know the drill. I'm too busy now and traveling next week, so I had to tell him that mid January is really all I can do now. Said OK and wants it by mid January but still hasn't awarded to lock in the date. 

I'm annoyed and should probably drink more.

[2e2dcda9]

I'm no new to Upwork but have experience with other freelance platforms. Nothing for nothing. Free also demeans your value. Move along - on to the next potential client. If someone is decent, correct, and professional they will never ask to do "free" work. Bipolar clients are the worst. Especially ones that do not wish to pay for anything.

[jolash]

@Jennifer.

RE:I'm annoyed and should probably drink more.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Lol.... just had to laugh at that.

Just send him a one liner..No award....No workie....

[lysis10]

lol no problem on the LOL. I like to end with a lulz or I'll go crazy. If you don't laugh, you'll go crazy on here! Thank god for this forum where I can blow off steam. blackhatworld temp banned me for making fun of mods. LOL So now you guys got me in full force.

Can't wait for my trip. One more week to go.....

[29f37f12]

As someone Looking for a ghost writer, I can see the other side too. I could end up paying out A Lot of money for bad writing as I search and never get anything I can use. I don't care what the writer writes, but I would like to see Something before I shell out $$. 

[prestonhunter]

re: "I don't care what the writer writes, but I would like to see Something before I shell out $$."

You are correct in your desire to see something before paying money.

That is what a freelancer's portfolio is for.

You should NOT EVEN CONSIDER hiring a freelance writer who doesn't post examples of their writing in a portfolio.

If you want to see custom writing, such as a sample of work that represents what the freelancer would do on your project, you can indeed ask for that simply by hiring a freelancer using an hourly contract and asking them to write for ten minutes.

That will provide a sample that fits your specific needs, under true conditions that will represent how the writer will work on your behalf. This is almost free. If a writer charges $6/hour (for example), then such an writing sample would only cost one dollar.

[2e395a62]

Preston, 

It doesn't work like this with writing. First of all - would you hire a freelance writer who is happy with $6 per hour? Secondly, for me 10 minutes is a great time to prove that: 1/ I have a laptop with a keyboard, 2/I have a few fingers left, 3/I can press the keys with my fingers, resulting in visible fonts appearing on the screen. This is what 10 minutes "test" is good for. If you need content with any value at all, you do not press the clock button and ask someone to deliver within such a time span. I know that it works pretty well if you are pointing a .45 at someone's head but I believe we don't want to promote this type of assessing freelancers' productivity. 

Samples of a freelancer's previous writing projects should be enough. Or a paid test with a fixed price. 

[prestonhunter]

Piotr:

thank you for your thoughtful post.

I agree with what you have said.

One of the most useful things you mentioned is that many writers expect to be hired using a fixed-price contract.

A client can indeed use a fixed-price contract to hire a freelancer to create a custom sample. It is certainly not necessary to use an hourly contract.

re: "would you hire a freelance writer who is happy with $6 per hour?"

It depends on what sort of writing one needs.

For some sorts of writing, this would be paying too much. One can find writers who will work for less.

For many sorts of writing, one would need to pay more.

[liquidom0092]

This happens in the Graphics related posts sometimes. I always looked at it like this; I have submitted a strong portfolio for their consideration and if they still need further convincing, I have 5-star reviews from the past few years which shows dependability, creativity, and tons of other great attributes right from the client's mouth. I don't work for free and if the client can't understand that then I spend my energy elsewhere.

[prestonhunter]

Every Upwork freelancer should be like Tom.

Every Upwork client should expect to pay freelancers for their time.

Every Upwork client should feel like it is 100% normal and expected to hire freelancers based on their portfolio and their profile page, without needing "free samples."

All freelancers should be POLITE to all clients, even if the client asks for something inappropriate. But that doesn't mean we say "yes" when asked to work for free. We provide simply directions to clients about how to do the right thing:

"Yes. I would be happy to create the sample illustration you requested. You can use the green 'Hire' button to set up an official Upwork contract. Then I can use that contract to do the sample work."

[prestonhunter]

If somebody wants to obtain free sample writing, all they need to do is post a decent question in the Community Forum, and they can get a free writing sample from many regular Forum participants.

Myself included.

I write free responses to Forum questions most every day. So there is a certain irony to my preaching that Upwork freelancers should not work for free.