Cutting out the "Middleman"

[resultsassoc]

I am a client and provider on both UW and another board. I've spent more than $5K on UW and more than that on the other board. On both sites I've made more than $40K as a provider.

I was told I would be awarded a job on the other board for mindless writing of schlock for mass consumption. Such is life. I wrote back indicating that I was certain the client would only accept invoices through the website and pay the same way. The client instead wants to pay through Paypal and cut out the middleman. My reply:

"Client,

The issue is one of compliance with binding terms of service to which you and I both agreed. ****.com provided the internet board on which you were able to post your opportunity and I was able to respond. We are both ethically required to comply, as ****.com provides a service for which it expects to be paid. Thus, I will be happy to sign any reasonable NDA, but must invoice and accept payment only through ****.com. I'm sure you do not wish to deal with a trading partner who would act unethically.

Bill H

Clients who want to cut out the middleman are acting unethically, and only unethical freelancers will do business with them. Neither client nor provider should want to trade with the other.

[lysis10]

I just tell them I don't wanna.

[prestonhunter]

I appreciate Bill's post and thoughtful consideration of this topic.

But Upwork is outside the experience and knowledge set of many clients. If they are accustomed to using CraigsList (for example), then they may not be familiar with policies relating to paying people through the platform. It is not a universal rule present on all websites that can be used to hire people.

If a client offers to pay off platform, it may well be out of ignorance. I can simply decline (as Jennifer suggests).

[petra_r]

This didn't even happen on Upwork.

It's like writing a random post on the eBay forum that I just bought cat food on Amazon...

[kbadeau]

I don't know why legit clients even offer it, as it doesn't help them at all. I tend to think it's more ignorance than a lack of ethics. If it ever comes up I just politely point out that it's against the Upwork TOS and I only take payment through Upwork.

[lysis10]

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Kelly B wrote:

I don't know why legit clients even offer it, as it doesn't help them at all. I tend to think it's more ignorance than a lack of ethics. If it ever comes up I just politely point out that it's against the Upwork TOS and I only take payment through Upwork.

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It usually is ignorance and they just don't know that we have to take money on the platform. Lecturing them is weird. Just tell them you can't because you have to take money on the platform. No need to lecture them on ToS, but we need to let Upwork know that we're clients on another platform.

[kbadeau]

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Jennifer M wrote:

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Kelly B wrote:

I don't know why legit clients even offer it, as it doesn't help them at all. I tend to think it's more ignorance than a lack of ethics. If it ever comes up I just politely point out that it's against the Upwork TOS and I only take payment through Upwork.

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It usually is ignorance and they just don't know that we have to take money on the platform. Lecturing them is weird. Just tell them you can't because you have to take money on the platform. No need to lecture them on ToS, but we need to let Upwork know that we're clients on another platform.

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I don't lecture them. I just mention the ToS so they know for future reference. I'm sure there are plenty of FLers who bring it up without it being suggested by a client.

[resultsassoc]

I had always assumed it was ignorance, but now I'm not so sure. After my gentle reminder, which cited ToS and the more important ethics issue, the client thanked me for my suggestion. I wrote back more forcefully, focused on ToS, she took it to her team, came back with "These are our processes. Thanks for your opinion." These were neither suggestions nor opinions. And, when this buyer leaves that board this week, she'll eventually wind up here. There is no "virus zone" in a city.

Yes, Petra, it isn't Upwork, but Upwork is not the universe, and we as freelancers live in the freelancer universe. Next message will go to the board in question, cc the buyer, turning down the work. When a buyer gets away with something like this, it doesn't hurt for us to remember to educate buyers.

[lysis10 · Accepted solution]

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Bill H wrote:

I had always assumed it was ignorance, but now I'm not so sure. After my gentle reminder, which cited ToS and the more important ethics issue, the client thanked me for my suggestion. I wrote back more forcefully, focused on ToS, she took it to her team, came back with "These are our processes. Thanks for your opinion." These were neither suggestions nor opinions. And, when this buyer leaves that board this week, she'll eventually wind up here. There is no "virus zone" in a city.

Yes, Petra, it isn't Upwork, but Upwork is not the universe, and we as freelancers live in the freelancer universe. Next message will go to the board in question, cc the buyer, turning down the work. When a buyer gets away with something like this, it doesn't hurt for us to remember to educate buyers.

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Weird. Maybe you're talking to a scammer. I've never had anyone push back when I just tell them I have to take payment through Upwork. The one time I *did* have someone push back, it was some creepto and I'm pretty sure it was some scam. He (the owner) told me his accounting department would only let him hire me as a w-2 employee, so I think he maybe wanted to use my social and address to set up the "we have offices in the US" sorta thing.

[resultsassoc]

The client said today they had to deal with me the way they dealt with everybody else, and they were "grateful" to the platform for allowing them to contact freelancers. I told them thanks, but no. I doubt it's a scam, just somebody who has no clue how businesses work.

[tta192]

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Bill H wrote:

The client said today they had to deal with me the way they dealt with everybody else, and they were "grateful" to the platform for allowing them to contact freelancers. I told them thanks, but no. I doubt it's a scam, just somebody who has no clue how businesses work.

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Yes, it is a scam. As a freelancer on that board you are the product. Basically, they're shoplifting. And yes, they know it!

It saves them the processing fee and I bet many freelancers are willing to share the savings on commission.

[richard_wein]

I had a client,  new to Upwork,  who needed a very small job.  Two hours work. He asked if he could pay by cheque,  just to avoid the hassle of registering a payment method. I think it just didn't occur to him that this would be cheating.Upwork. Of course I insisted on payment through upwork, and there was no further problem. 

The only other time it's happened to me was a good long term client who genuinely wanted to save ME money. Again I suspect he didn't think of this as cheating Upwork,  just as a more cost- effective way of organising our business. In fact we're now over 2 years from our first job on upwork,  so we could legitimately leave upwork the next time he hires me,  but I prefer to keep it on upwork anyway.