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jozsab1
Community Member

Future of Upwork

Looking for people to change my mind ( just feeling down )

Was on some other freelance website discussing what are the option out there for us developers, when someone said "of, upwork is a race to the bottom". I was suprized, I had a good opinion about upwork. So I tried to argue why ? "because people just downbid projects until all the good guys leave".

Have to admit, these days if i open the "find work" list, 90% of them are from **Edited for Community Guidelines**.... most people just flipping jobs. They quickly goble up new client and repost with lower rate. And than you see hourly rate 2-3$. I kid you not, there are projects posted for 5$.

Is this good for the client ? Probably not, he might get poor quality for "fair" price paid by him.

Is this a good deal for the end developer ? Probably not as smart guys leave and only the beginners (who are desperate for a good review) will take on 5$ projects.

Is this good for upwork ? Well, some people already argued it's a race to the bottom.

Is this is a good deal for project flippers ? Definetly.

I know it's not an easy to handle situation, but a more proper moderation would go a long way.

What I would do if I could ? **Edited for Community Guidelines** Not trying to be racist of anything, but the past 3 projects from america, were actually reposts from **Edited for Community Guidelines**. I think both clients and developers deserve to know the truth who you are dealing with. **Edited for Community Guidelines** A lot of companies go to **Edited for Community Guidelines** for cheap labor, and there is nothing wrong with that, but when I spend 1 whole week for a 50$ milestone, it makes me flip a table.

29 REPLIES 29
renegate2502
Community Member

Hello Jozsa

 

I read your post in detail and it's very interesting one. Long story to short, I can tell you honestly, try to ignore small jobs or small budget if it's not fit for you. It's all depend on your decsion. We all know our value and project difficulty. As a professional developer, I suggest my quote to clients and if he want to hire right candidate and good quality, they will not hire or looking for low price developers. It's marketplace.

 

Best,

Ttenochtchi

How would the client recognize a flipper ? They bought an american account ( just google how many people sell fake upwork accounts ) they spam the client asking all possible rates ( from 10 to 50$/h) to make sure they gobble up the client, and than they repost it for lowst possible rate.

Sure I refuse work. There are months until I manage to find work. But as I said, it's a race to the bottom

Hi Jozsa,

 

It is against Upwork TOS to share or "rent" an account, if you find any activity like this in the marketplace we encourage you to report itFor more information about our efforts, please see this Community announcement.

 

Thanks!

~Andrea
Upwork

I have edited out my post as for some extraordinary reason it was edited by a moderator and no longer made sense. 

 

@ the mod who deleted it - why didn't you just completely remove it?  

shummas
Community Member


@jozsab1 wrote:

How would the client recognize a flipper ? They bought an american account ( just google how many people sell fake upwork accounts ) they spam the client asking all possible rates ( from 10 to 50$/h) to make sure they gobble up the client, and than they repost it for lowst possible rate.

Sure I refuse work. There are months until I manage to find work. But as I said, it's a race to the bottom


I don't think one can survive long enough with a fake location. In time, the profile would get flagged, possibly triggering a verification check. Upwork's algorithm is (and should be) capable of detecting such fraudulent activities, I believe. 

moonraker
Community Member


Jozsa Bodnar I wrote:

but when I spend 1 whole week for a 50$ milestone, it makes me flip a table.


I would not be happy with that money either --- so I say no. There's plenty of clients out there looking to pay for the best quality they can afford.

If you think it's a race to the bottom then you're doing something wrong. 

There are **Edited for Community Guidelines** everywhere - quack doctors, sleazy lawyers, crooked judge, dishonest politicians, slumlords. The list goes on and on.  The trick is to go right past them.  They have nothing to do with you.

I have seen references to a "race to the bottom" for many years now.

 

That simply has not been my experience.

 

Many people in the Forum have mentioned that Upwork has a stratified market. This seems to be a good way to look at it.

 

Like the TV series "Worth It" (available on YouTube and Hulu): Each episode the show visits a low-cost, mid-range, and expensive restaurant to sample a particular food item. $3 sushi vs. $40 sushi vs. $250 sushi. Clients can find different levels of service available on Upwork. I know that many clients come to Upwork excited about the prospect of saving a lot of money by hiring from the low-cost segment... That really is all that many of them require. But other times... clients realize that they will save time and money in the long run by hiring from the mid-range and high-end segments.

 

There is sentiment I sometimes read in the Forum:

 

"I do this type of work. But clients aren't paying well for this type of work because they can hire freelancers in another country to do that work for much less than I charge."

 

If you are offering the same product as other people, but other people are offering that product for much less... Then clients SHOULD save money by getting what they need from the freelancers who charge less. Freelancers who don't want to be part of the "the race to the bottom" offer services that can not so easily be obtained from the lowest-cost freelancers. Or they offer services at a level of quality and expertise that clients are willing to pay more for.


Preston H wrote:

 

Many people in the Forum have mentioned that Upwork has a stratified market. This seems to be a good way to look at it.

 


Yep.

I feel those at the lower end of the writing pool are not competing with me while I am not competing with those at the upper end. I'm competing in a rather different market to those categories. 

Once when I was struggling to find work it was suggested I should put my prices up. It worked almost straight away. I think doing so moved me into a different, less competitive market. 

It's something people like the OP need to take into account. If they're not happy with the market they are currently operating in they should try a different one. And they'll find it right here on this platform. 


"Once when I was struggling to find work it was suggested I should put my prices up. It worked almost straight away. I think doing so moved me into a different, less competitive market."

 

Tried to search for your upwork profile to check your work history. Could not find it.

 

Have to admit what you guys say in theory makes sense. In practice, if I'm a client and I have to compare upwork to other platforms (not going to use names ). On other platforms you get instant 50 bids and I have no idea who to choose from there are so many liars and cheaters. Upwork had the advantage of filtering out fake accounts until now, but recently it's like almost there is no difference from the low end freelance services. It's just "fight for survival", not something organized or quality focused. Is there something wrong with it ? Only if you wish to represent something different than others.

Let me rephrase it, if you are a client(job giver), is it ok for you to struggle on a website to filter out liars and cheaters.

 

I guess it's the nature of the world, as hotmail, yahoo... died out, all things come to an end when they refuse to evolve in a positive way

kinector
Community Member

Jozsa, here's my personal experience and opinion. I'm hoping to change your mind here. Please stay on Upwork... but you might want to change your approach a bit.

Here's how. 😉

I'm not entirely sure, but the impression I got from your profile is that after a decade of freelancing, you're still working for other techies.

Maybe, instead of doing that, try to find a niche that you can own. Sweet business that way. By default, you need to be the No. 1 guy in your specific niche and as your profile is already strong you can get more invitations that you can handle. Which means you can choose.

My thesis is that as long as you are a developer working for other developers it is extremely hard to level up and get to true value-based pricing. You're stuck with getting paid in relation to the time you spend.

Skip that model.

Make sure you get paid according to your contribution to the client's business.

Apply this model and making a $1,000 a day is not a big thing. It's the standard deal. Or more like the minimum you should consider.

This wonderful platform gives you a distinct advantage over any other platform. Once you have a strong profile, you can choose to work for only the dream client types. Reject all others. Keep your standards. The best kinds of clients are right here. And the platform helps you to find them... even to the point that you don't need to spend time on it (=invitations).

Aim at getting clients whose main offering comes from the work YOU do. Your part is therefore critical. Then, it's worth a lot. 🤑

I love doing fixed price jobs where knowing what my clients will charge to their clients is the most important factor I price my services by. I never ask directly, of course, but as I know how the business domain of my client works, all I need to know is who my client's customers are. That information is enough for making sweet deals that take little of my time, deliver a great and absolutely critical part of my client's business, and yet my client can sell the result forward with a reasonable margin.

Happy client, profit for them and myself at the same time. 🤑 In other words, the best kind of business you could have in theory.

The trick is that you don't work for another developer who can only make money from hiring you for a lower rate than his/her own. That IS the race to the bottom. And the reason is in your own business model.

You just need to jump higher up in the value chain. 👍

Not that complicated, right? 😉

My only disagreement with Mikko is that he's pulling his punches. I'm going to be blunt: I am a client and have never turned down a response because the freelancer was too expensive. I have turned down a great many who are too cheap. If you don't thnink you're worth very much, I'm not going to argue with you.

 

I spend a couple hours reviewing profiles before issuing invitations. JSS is irrelevant, as are five-star ratings without a narrative. I give credit for 4.3 ratings with a narrative. I'm looking for profiles that indicate the freelancer understands business. I like profiles with portfolios. I give extra points if the response includes intelligent questions. I hire a lot of people with no record who blew my socks off with their responses. One fellow had been on the site for six months with no work. He sent me a response consisting primarily of the deliverable based on dummy data to demonstrate his understanding of the work.

I haven't read your profile, but from Mikko's comments I assume it is written to appeal to other tech types. WHY????? Tech types have no real money to spend. Do your responses focus on "I can C++ with the .asp and front end the UI to a .net with Windows Servers and Pythons squeezing them." I'm a businessman, I don't care about any of that. What business result are you going to deliver? I have real money to play with. Write the response to appeal to me.

Your response can start with questions about me, my business, and the job posted, with a statement "I can increase your bottom line by three cents per share," or "I may not be your best choice for this job." All three will get me to read the rest of it. You need to construct an unbroken trail between "I give you money" and "I get results worth more than the money I paid." Any failure in logic in that trail and you're dead. Any unsupported assertions and you're dead. It's a tough world out there.

UW is full of "buyers" who have no idea about what it takes to produce what they're asking for, all they know is that Upwork has promised them world-class experts at pennies on the dollar. You look at what drew you to the site, and recall that Upwork promised you great work with global clients paying top rates. Both cannot be true simultaneously.

Bill H wrote:

all they know is that Upwork has promised them world-class experts at pennies on the dollar. 


As usual, the flaw lies in the fact that Upwork never made any such promise. Or even implied any such thing. But let's not let facts and truth stand in the way of rhetoric, right?

 

 

Hi Bill H,

 

I totally agree with you.

 

Regards

M. Imran


Preston H wrote:

I have seen references to a "race to the bottom" for many years now.

 

That simply has not been my experience.

 

Many people in the Forum have mentioned that Upwork has a stratified market. This seems to be a good way to look at it.

 

Like the TV series "Worth It" (available on YouTube and Hulu): Each episode the show visits a low-cost, mid-range, and expensive restaurant to sample a particular food item. $3 sushi vs. $40 sushi vs. $250 sushi. Clients can find different levels of service available on Upwork. I know that many clients come to Upwork excited about the prospect of saving a lot of money by hiring from the low-cost segment... That really is all that many of them require. But other times... clients realize that they will save time and money in the long run by hiring from the mid-range and high-end segments.

 

There is sentiment I sometimes read in the Forum:

 

"I do this type of work. But clients aren't paying well for this type of work because they can hire freelancers in another country to do that work for much less than I charge."

 

If you are offering the same product as other people, but other people are offering that product for much less... Then clients SHOULD save money by getting what they need from the freelancers who charge less. Freelancers who don't want to be part of the "the race to the bottom" offer services that can not so easily be obtained from the lowest-cost freelancers. Or they offer services at a level of quality and expertise that clients are willing to pay more for.


Special kudos for this, Preston! My thoughts exactly.

 

Fortunately for us, it's always the seller who decides the price.

I encourage everyone to read Mikko's and Preston's answers here. I also would like to hear from freelancers who have been on UW for less than a year, who can compare what they expected to what they found. Was it the same as whatever inveigled you to join UW? If not, how did it differ?

rahulsharma108
Community Member

I have been bidding on many jobs for the last 3 months until I found stability in my freelancing career with the signing of some contracts.  After applying for 81 jobs in the last 3 months. I found that Upwork's job feed has everything to offer for a beginner with a low rate to a highly skilled experienced contractor with high rates. It is different from other freelancing platforms, The other platforms have failed to offer safety, trust, and quality. Upwork is the future. In one of the prominent freelancing platforms, I found that 90% jobs were related to graphic design and fake likes, comments subscribe work, with fix rate of just $5. The biggest thing is their platform is advertising on social channels that they do actually offer $5 work. That is something Upwork does not do and does not actually have. It is the best freelancing platform, you just need

1. Some patience

2 . A good level of experience

3. Proven skills and portfolio

4. Nice profile

If a freelancer has all 4 of them, then he can never fail here. With the passage of time 'he' will land high-paying jobs.

Thank you.

A gig is something you casually do for a short period of time. It's not a reliable income, it's more like a compensation. You can hardly take a gig seriously because the gig will not take you seriously.

If it takes you 3 months and 81 job applications, you know exactly what I'm talking about. When you finally land a job, it does not pay you enough to compensate for the past 2-3 months you had 0 income. It does not last long enough to save up for the next 2-3 idle months ( after you finish it).

If you have a full time job, you probably will allocate some spare time to freelancing, but many clients do not like this. They want fast, reliable results ( makes sense ). And this is the vicious circle freelancing becomes a gig.

Don't get me wrong, this is not the case for EVERYBODY. Would be curious the average freelancer how many hours / contract works. Does it add up to more than 1-2 months / contract ? Doubt it

Yes, sir, I understand what you say. That is right up to some extent. You said that clients want reliable and fast results. If you have that type of client, then it means you are having a client who is giving a good amount of work. if a client says to me that design a landing page for me, then It is not like he will give me 8 hours this night and he wants it very quickly. The client will give at least 1-2 days. In quickest of the case may be few hours. Also if he is just there for 1-2 hours work and wants it very quick, that will be mentioned in his job posting, it is up to you to decide whether or not to put proposal.

 

But if that client is having an agency, he signed a good contract with a fair amount of work, then it is up to you to decide whether to leave a full-time job or not. Now that is where our position matters. I have seen many people who just look at their neighbor and think that he is a lucky person, just because he is a full-time freelancer with many contracts. So in order to do the same, that person leaves his full-time job and jumps into freelancing, That thing in 99% of the time will fail. You have to hard work and first, take freelancing as a side hustle. After freelancing give you a fair amount of work, only then you can leave full-time jobs. Make this transition smooth. Also jumping straight into freelancing has some flaws. At full-time jobs, you learn many things, which will help you in becoming a better freelancer in the future.

 

I will also advise putting proposals to those jobs that are like an agency. Agency gives a long time work, a business owner can quit it sometimes. A business owner can have bad days, so will you. As you said about the gig, 'gig' is a word that is made for other freelancing platforms, where most of the clients they offer, post a gig for $5 cheap logo work or $5 fake likes work. After working that client disappears. On Upwork, it is a 'job proposal'. Look at the word 'job', which means long-term. when I was putting 81 proposals in 3 months, I have signed 4 jobs out of them. Some clients post a job and they never come back, but that is the problem of people not of Upwork. Out of 81 proposals, I landed 10-15 interviews. Out of those interviews, some clients were not resonating with me. So I did not proceed further. Some just messaged me and never came back. So out of 15, I landed 4. Now it is not like that out of 81, I would have got 80 contracts signed. You have to see the actual strike rate.

 

We are competing with millions of freelancers, so it is obvious. If we do the mad level of hard work, then it is realized and fine to say that competition is just in our 'mind'.

 

To summarize in few words 'You have to handle both things promising full-time jobs and freelancing struggle. Once you are stable, 'quit your job' and be a full-timefreelancer. It has to be done and this is the right way to do it. You can have a 9 hour of a full-time job and after coming home at 5, you still have 3-4 hours to do side hustle.'

Oh, Rahul, it's such a mess. Can you split the message in paragraphs? It's hard to read and looks like not worth reading at all.

No one need worry about Upwork.  Every freelancer needs to worry about getting work and investing in their own business, and like all investments, it is better not to put all one's eggs in one basket. 

Nichola is absolutely right. Don't put all your coconuts in one basket! 🤣:desert_island:😜
kinector
Community Member

Jozsa, I think your fundamentals of freelancing are as much off as are your expectations. No offense. But you'll learn quick, I'm absolutely sure.

This is a gig platform, let's face it. Nothing wrong with it. All Upwork really does is it matches you with new clients. Once that match is made, there isn't any real value the platform gives you. Only limitations, actually. This is basically just a business dating platform. 😍

So, by default, you should use THIS platform for getting GREAT GIGS. Many! 🤑

You want this platform to be part of your business? Then use it for something that it is good for. 😉 Meet lots of cool people and spend as little time as possible in solving their problems. That's good business for all.

Obviously, you should never start a gig that that doesn't take you seriously. What's the chance of victory there? Not very high. Why even consider it? 😬

So, you just need to be more clear about your value.

What is good for all parties on Upwork is that you as a freelancer take EVERY GIG seriously. Make sure that the little piece of time you spend on any client's project makes a huge impact on their business. Clients that need exactly what you can do at your best don't mind paying hundreds of dollars per hour. Because you're worth it (and no, I'm not advertising L'Oréal here 🤣).

Your success depends on who you are, what can you do for your clients, and what benefits they get from your work. Apply value-based pricing and you'll be fine. If the value is clear, you'll be in the infamous race to the bottom in no time anyways, regardless of what platform you use.

Focus on defining your value.



Drop me a private message and I'll give you a couple of personalized suggestions. 😉
lopezdp
Community Member

UpWork is awesome for me. What you are describing actually helps me stand out and win better paying jobs. Do you think it is a sustainable long term solution to rent your account to flip jobs at $5? The contractor doing that will eventually get horrible reviews and will ultimately stop getting hired or get discovered by UpWork and banned. The truth always comes out, always.

The majority of my customers are customers who have gone down the traps you have mentioned and because they have lost so much money looking for the free/cheap solution, they understand the value in paying me my asking price because I get the job done because simply put, I am a man of character and I deliver.

 

Dont pay attention to the noise; put your head down, do a good job, and add value to the lives of the people you work for and charge a hefty price for it. You will be surprised, those who deliver are a rarity, and no matter what the economic conditions are, true business people will ALWAYS pay a premium for good talent.

You just have to stick to the path and continue to follow the road less travelled; this will make all the difference.

rebimeiriana
Community Member

Hei Jozsa, I just want to say that it is also shocccking for me to see projects that is soooo cheeeapp, i saw someone asked for a brand identity (logo+stationary etc) for 10$, i mean, how is 10$ possible..? :')

re: "I just want to say that it is also shocccking for me to see projects that is soooo cheeeapp, i saw someone asked for a brand identity (logo+stationary etc) for 10$, i mean, how is 10$ possible?"

 

It depends on what you mean by "possible".

 

Yes, there are freelancers who offer all kinds of services at extremely low prices.

 

If a client pays a freelancer $10 for brand identity (logo + stationary, etc.), what do YOU think they are really going to get?

 

Maybe something generated from a simple template or tool? If that's all that the client requires, then that's great! If a client requires something more substantial than that, then the client is likely to be disappointed, and the client will need to pay that freelancer more to do more work. Or a more realistic next step will be to hire a more serious freelancer to do more serious work.


@rebimeiriana wrote:

Hei Jozsa, I just want to say that it is also shocccking for me to see projects that is soooo cheeeapp, i saw someone asked for a brand identity (logo+stationary etc) for 10$, i mean, how is 10$ possible..? :')


Well, $10 worth of work will give you results that aren't worth more than $10 ... Smiley Tongue so it's a fair game. Yesterday, I paid someone $20 to design a simple logo, something to use as a temporary placeholder on my startup's Instagram account.

Did I get more of a quick but temporary "placeholder" logo? Yes

Did I get something I can rely on for years to come? No way, and I wasn't expecting that anyway.

Unlike you, many clients expect that $5/$10/$20 job to be stellar. They're worse than fast fashion brands, in a way. They don't understand quality in the least.

I think situations like yours are rare.

 

 

tlsanders
Community Member

 I'm late to this discussion, but since it's still going on, I'm going to jump in anyway.

 

The race, whether on Upwork or anywhere else, is the one you sign up for and participate in.

 

There are definitely a lot of freelancers on Upwork racing one another to see who can work cheapest and squeeze out the most miserable existence. That does not mean that by working on Upwork, you necessarily join their race. That is your choice. 

 

 Imagine that you're standing in the middle of a road that runs east-west. You know roughly where your destination is, and it's about a mile to the east. You look up and notice that only a couple of people are walking east and a couple have turned off on side streets, but most of the people you see are heading west. Do you say "Oh, I guess this road goes west" and walk away from your intended destination? Or do you head in the direction you want to go--the one that leads where you want to end up--and not worry about where all those strangers are going?

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