NBC news article about Upwork/check scam

[prestonhunter]

This is kind of interesting... NBC News has an article about check scams and freelancers who lost money while participating in such scams.

There is nothing new here for those of us who are regular Forum participants and who are familiar with the scam. But it is interesting to see a news article report on the topic.

Article titled: "People who turned to Upwork to find freelance gigs say they've lost thousands of dollars to scams"

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/people-who-turned-upwork-find-freelance-gigs-say-they-were-n12...

[florydev · Accepted solution]

I find this all part of an ongoing trend of "freelancers" needing to be protected. I can't speak for uber drivers and other gig workers but I am fine, leave me alone.

[prestonhunter]

Yeah, I think anyone with a bit of experience does not need to be protected from this old check scam.

The article is written from the perspective of newbie freelancers and from the perspective of a writer unfamiliar with the topic. That is fine. Those of us who are regular Forum participants don't necessarily relate to those perspectives. That is one of the things I found interesting.

I do get it that for a person who was looking for online work, the loss of between $2000 to $3000 is jarring and extreme disappointing. But to put things into perspective, this amount of money is less than a typical tuition payment for a single semester in college. The would-be freelancers who lose money to this scam will never lose money to this same scam again. They paid for some education. In fact they paid less money and spent less time then they would have had they gone through a semester's worth of college to learn the same lessons.

[chhickish]

UpWork is a platform, they are not responsible for peoples poor choices.

Through the ratings system and the information provided by UpWork there is all the information you need to minimise the risk of getting scammed...there will always be a risk, but I'd rather have the risk than more nannying from UpWork.

[zohaumar]

I have just read the article and had to hop on to the community to check about it. Personally, in my opinion, I felt like it was such a one-sided story. They didn't mention Upwork's CONTINOUS efforts in asking us to stay on the platform, an enormous amount of progress made on Upwork's Video/Voice Call feature to avoid us going to other platforms for communication and the most important of all, giving us all continued and even improved stream of work when so many people around us are going jobless. 

Whatever that article meant, all I have realized is that I was able to sense a possible scam almost every time they approached me, and it was made possible because I trusted Upwork. I knew that if a person is not willing to pay me on Upwork, they are not willing to pay me at all and any step further into it would just lead me into a problem. 

Wished these people have trusted Upwork and the TOS a little more, and most importantly, have played safe. 

We LOVE you, Upwork. Each and every Freelancer here, and the success stories are far more than the ones that made it to the article.   

[yitwail]

 A couple of points made in the article caught my eye. First, it stated,

"Upwork said in a statement that users agree to its terms of service when signing up, which requires all communication and transactions to occur on the Upwork platform."

That's clearly inaccurate, because off platform communication is still allowed during interviews until later this month.

Then it quotes a law professor thus:

"Veena Dubal, a professor at the University of California Hastings College of the Law who studies gig work platforms, said the fact that Upwork represents itself as a safe place to find work could mean the company has some legal responsibility to its users to deal with scams and fraudulent activity more than it already is."

I wonder if any contributors with law degrees would care to comment on the above statement?

[mwiggenhorn]

I don't have a law degree but I'll jump in anyway.  Every single person in the article violated the TOS that they agreed to by taking cash/ check.  Using the platform properly would have prevented every single one of these scams. 

That being said, Upwork could be more diligent - somehow - in keeping these scammers off the platform.  Perhaps a seminar/ video for all newbies on how to avoid scams.  Or a Readiness Test that actually addresses these issues.

[a_lipsey]

And don't these scams happen on all the platforms? It's not just Upwork, right? 

[prestonhunter]

re: "And don't these scams happen on all the platforms? It's not just Upwork, right?"

Although the focus of this article is definitely on Upwork, to its credit, the article explicitly points out that this scam is not an Upwork-specific thing, but is widespread.

[yitwail]

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Mary W wrote:

I don't have a law degree but I'll jump in anyway.  Every single person in the article violated the TOS that they agreed to by taking cash/ check.  Using the platform properly would have prevented every single one of these scams. 

That being said, Upwork could be more diligent - somehow - in keeping these scammers off the platform.  Perhaps a seminar/ video for all newbies on how to avoid scams.  Or a Readiness Test that actually addresses these issues.

---

Mary, I'm sure you're 100% correct from a legalistic point of view. But if I can be a devil's advocate, pardon the expression, not every new freelancer may be alert enough to recognize that a check sent for the purposes of purchasing equipment constitutes payment off platform. Indeed, if one looks at the circumvention section of the user agreement -- https://www.upwork.com/legal#MAKINGPAYMENTS 

-- it lists a few examples of prohibited activity, but receiving checks for equipment purchase is not among them. And I note that in the recent announcement of TOS changes related to communication off platform, it was stated that "The goal of these changes is to create a safe environment in which both talent and clients can thrive." To me, that sounds like a concession that the environment was not as safe as it could have been.

[etrusca]

John K wrote:

"not every new freelancer may be alert enough to recognize that a check sent for the purposes of purchasing equipment constitutes payment off platform."

Ok, maybe. But is it normal that a perfect stranger send me a check upfront? I would think twice before giving credit to such a miracle.

[lysis10]

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Antonia B wrote:

Ok, maybe. But is it normal that a perfect stranger send me a check upfront? I would think twice before giving credit to such a miracle.

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But it's for your mini office and you can pay them back in gift cards. Nothing suspicious!

[kbadeau]

I feel dumb (that's nothing new) but don't they have to have already accepted a contract to get scammed? So the change to the ToS doesn't help them in the slightest?

[yitwail]

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Kelly B wrote:

I feel dumb (that's nothing new) but don't they have to have already accepted a contract to get scammed? So the change to the ToS doesn't help them in the slightest?

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No need to feel dumb, you probably don't spend as much time reading community posts as some of us do. Typically, these scams involved an interview with a supposed HR manager in google hangouts. With the change in TOS, check scammers will have to adjust their tactics, perhaps.

[martina_plaschka]

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John K wrote:

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Kelly B wrote:

I feel dumb (that's nothing new) but don't they have to have already accepted a contract to get scammed? So the change to the ToS doesn't help them in the slightest?

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No need to feel dumb, you probably don't spend as much time reading community posts as some of us do. Typically, these scams involved an interview with a supposed HR manager in google hangouts. With the change in TOS, check scammers will have to adjust their tactics, perhaps.

---

One can only hope that the newbies read through the ToS and know that they should not communicate outside of upwork before hire. Maybe they will insert a pop-up somewhere to tell them? It's hard to say how effective this policy will be, but there will always be some that just jump into anything without thinking...

[lysis10]

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John K wrote:

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Kelly B wrote:

I feel dumb (that's nothing new) but don't they have to have already accepted a contract to get scammed? So the change to the ToS doesn't help them in the slightest?

---

No need to feel dumb, you probably don't spend as much time reading community posts as some of us do. Typically, these scams involved an interview with a supposed HR manager in google hangouts. With the change in TOS, check scammers will have to adjust their tactics, perhaps.

---

I bet they still have no problem. They drop their gmail contact or a document with contact info right away, so plenty of gullible desperados will see it before Upwork gets to the job and pulls it. I doubt the new rule will have an effect on scammers, but it'll have an effect on the moneymakers and honest freelancers who rake in the cash. 🤦‍:female_sign:

[colettelewis]

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Kelly B wrote:

I feel dumb (that's nothing new) but don't they have to have already accepted a contract to get scammed? So the change to the ToS doesn't help them in the slightest?

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____________________

No - you don't have to have a contract to get scammed, because these guys grab the noobs and persuade them to circumvent - with promises of the pot of gold at the rainbow's end. 

Perhaps this is the aim of the  new upcoming  rules and regs about communicating off site before a contract is in place. Let's hope it works.  

[prestonhunter]

 Most of the freelancers who get scammed probably don't have a contract with the "client" who scams them. The scammers don't want to put up real money in fixed-price contracts or risk freelancers billing time on hourly contracts.

[kbadeau]

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Nichola L wrote:

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Kelly B wrote:

I feel dumb (that's nothing new) but don't they have to have already accepted a contract to get scammed? So the change to the ToS doesn't help them in the slightest?

---

____________________

No - you don't have to have a contract to get scammed, because these guys grab the noobs and persuade them to circumvent - with promises of the pot of gold at the rainbow's end. 

Perhaps this is the aim of the  new upcoming  rules and regs about communicating off site before a contract is in place. Let's hope it works.  

---

Okay then I still feel dumb... why does Upwork care if people who circumvent and don't have a contract in place get scammed? Why do the rest of us have to suffer because of them?

[colettelewis]

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Kelly B wrote:

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Nichola L wrote:

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Kelly B wrote:

I feel dumb (that's nothing new) but don't they have to have already accepted a contract to get scammed? So the change to the ToS doesn't help them in the slightest?

---

____________________

No - you don't have to have a contract to get scammed, because these guys grab the noobs and persuade them to circumvent - with promises of the pot of gold at the rainbow's end. 

Perhaps this is the aim of the  new upcoming  rules and regs about communicating off site before a contract is in place. Let's hope it works.  

---

Okay then I still feel dumb... why does Upwork care if people who circumvent and don't have a contract in place get scammed? Why do the rest of us have to suffer because of them?__________________________________________

A question that only Upwork can answer. 😉

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[florydev]

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Antonia B wrote:

John K wrote:

"not every new freelancer may be alert enough to recognize that a check sent for the purposes of purchasing equipment constitutes payment off platform."

Ok, maybe. But is it normal that a perfect stranger send me a check upfront? I would think twice before giving credit to such a miracle.

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I would be suspicious of someone who wanted to send me a check period...who uses checks???

[coryemberson]

Great point, which goes to common sense. The overpayment scam is an old
one. Anyone absolutely should be very suspicious. And yep... my remaining
check-writing client just leveled up to ACH (hurray!).

The fact that V. Dubai may leverage this is of concern to me.

[a_lipsey]

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Mark F wrote:

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Antonia B wrote:

John K wrote:

"not every new freelancer may be alert enough to recognize that a check sent for the purposes of purchasing equipment constitutes payment off platform."

Ok, maybe. But is it normal that a perfect stranger send me a check upfront? I would think twice before giving credit to such a miracle.

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I would be suspicious of someone who wanted to send me a check period...who uses checks???

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All of my non Upwork clients. Which is like 85%.

[kristen_oneill]

Only creepy criminal types with nefarious intentions use checks. I think that Lex Luther and the Joker were known to use checks. 

[coryemberson]

This caught my eye:

>>Then it quotes a law professor thus:

"Veena Dubal, a professor at the University of California Hastings College of the Law who studies gig work platforms, said the fact that Upwork represents itself as a safe place to find work could mean the company has some legal responsibility to its users to deal with scams and fraudulent activity more than it already is."<<

Veena Dubal is the law professor who has been championing taxis and unions for years, recently to the extreme detriment of non-ridesharing freelancers in California (ref: AB5). She is singularly focused on this gig versus labor issue, and I wouldn't be surprised to see her ghost-author another statewide bill that similarly restricts professional freelancers on platforms that connects us with clients of both parties' conscious free will. I'm keeping a sharp eye on this.

[resultsassoc]

"Okay then I still feel dumb... why does Upwork care if people who circumvent and don't have a contract in place get scammed? Why do the rest of us have to suffer because of them?__________________________________________

A question that only Upwork can answer."

Upwork has made a common business error in assuming that if it controls every aspect of every transaction then it is controlling all processes. That is the easiest way to lose control of processes.

[astepanov83]

Since Upwork is a US company, what's with the privacy of correspondence in the US? Is it regulated by laws or by Upwork ToS? I'm pretty sure in many countries correspondence is something noone is allowed to see. The exception is software. It can read and if it's smart enough it can say if violations happened or not. And the final decision to do something (block, warn, delete message) must be made blindly. Or a court can legally allow access to correspondense, but only in certain situations, like terrorist threat or something like this, but not violation of ToS of a random company.

So, how Upwork is going to decide if parties exchange their contacts before contract?

[prestonhunter]

re: "Is it regulated by laws or by Upwork ToS?"

Upwork.

This isn't about courts.

How Upwork functions - just like any website - is a result of the software that runs the website, along with the policies and practices followed by the employees who run the site.

Laws are likely an important informing factor, as are other factors, such as market forces, the site owner's preferences, etc. But server software can not read and follow legal writings. And employees do what they are asked to do by their company. So it would be a mistake to read about a law somewhere and make any assumptions about how that law is implemented on any particular website.

Laws are complex and many. There are hundreds of countries, plus states, provinces, etc., plus many agencies and interests. Every major website is at all times simultaneously in compliance with many laws and regulations, and is also violating many laws.

[VladimirG]

Hi Aleksandr,

Upwork reserves the right to access content created by users on the site for various reasons such as dispute assistance, TOS violation investigation, investigation of technical issues, etc. Please refer to the articles 2. and 16. of the Privacy Policy. 

[lccarey122]

Thank you for this post!  I'm new to Upwork and was contacted by a company for an interview via Skype.  The people claimed they were from a well known company and offered to hire me.  I thought it was odd that the person that interviewed me was the Vice Chairman of the company (his Skype picture matched the company directory) but I continued with the interview.  He told me the company wanted to continue on outside of Upwork.  When I commented about the Upwork policy he said they were taking down the post on Upworks and had paid an opt out fee in order to make it possible. 

I was immediately suspicious but I allowed the contact to continue because I wanted to see how elaborate the scan would get.  I was told that I would need specific equipment for the job and got an invoice, totally oddly to an even $2000 (clue 1).  I was from another contact in Accounting but the email address was @mail.com (clue 2).  Finally, the address was in Las Vegas but the area code was for Chicago (clue 3). 

Next I was sent a scanned copy of a check to deposit to cover the costs of the equipment I needed (clue 4).  It is unheard of for a well known company to do this (clue 5).  They would buy the equipment and ship to you!!.  The check was a real bank and a real routing number so no help there but the name, amount, and date were superimposed not typed onto the check (clue 6).  

All in all, fairly elaborate.  The post has been removed from Upwork so I cannot flag it as inappropriate.  However, I saved my Skype interactions and all the emails I received.  Now what to do - report it to the company in question and the FBI!  See the attached document from **Edited for Community Guidelines**, the well known company I mentioned earlier.  Please do not rely on Upwork to report these kinds of scams.  If more of us send the scam information to the FBI then it might actually get investigated.  Please go to https://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx or search FBI internet crime complaint in your browser.  Make sure the address ends in .gov. 

Sorry for the long post but I hope these clues helps someone avoid these kinds of scams. I noticed very early on and was able to avoid any issues.  

**Edited for Community Guidelines**

[gilbert-phyllis]

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Loucinda B wrote:

Thank you for this post!  I'm new to Upwork and was contacted by a company for an interview via Skype.  The people claimed they were from a well known company and offered to hire me.  I thought it was odd that the person that interviewed me was the Vice Chairman of the company (his Skype picture matched the company directory) but I continued with the interview.  He told me the company wanted to continue on outside of Upwork.  When I commented about the Upwork policy he said they were taking down the post on Upworks and had paid an opt out fee in order to make it possible. 

I was immediately suspicious but I allowed the contact to continue because I wanted to see how elaborate the scan would get.  I was told that I would need specific equipment for the job and got an invoice, totally oddly to an even $2000 (clue 1).  I was from another contact in Accounting but the email address was @mail.com (clue 2).  Finally, the address was in Las Vegas but the area code was for Chicago (clue 3). 

Next I was sent a scanned copy of a check to deposit to cover the costs of the equipment I needed (clue 4).  It is unheard of for a well known company to do this (clue 5).  They would buy the equipment and ship to you!!.  The check was a real bank and a real routing number so no help there but the name, amount, and date were superimposed not typed onto the check (clue 6).  

All in all, fairly elaborate.  The post has been removed from Upwork so I cannot flag it as inappropriate.  However, I saved my Skype interactions and all the emails I received.  Now what to do - report it to the company in question and the FBI!  See the attached document from **Edited for Community Guidelines**, the well known company I mentioned earlier.  Please do not rely on Upwork to report these kinds of scams.  If more of us send the scam information to the FBI then it might actually get investigated.  Please go to https://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx or search FBI internet crime complaint in your browser.  Make sure the address ends in .gov. 

Sorry for the long post but I hope these clues helps someone avoid these kinds of scams. I noticed very early on and was able to avoid any issues.  

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The FBI is not going to investigate this decades-old scam which can only harm someone who agrees to violate the ToS of this platform. Please don't waste their time. It's good that you didn't fall for it. To avoid wasting your own time, if you encounter such a thing in the future, flag the job post so UW can investigate and get on with your life.

As for the company being impersonated, they don't have anything to do with it, are not harmed by it, and have no earthly reason to waste time reading an email about it.

[prestonhunter]

I agree that it is highly unlikely that the FBI or any other agency is going to do anything about any individual's situation.

There are large-scale investigations of fraud and scams, but those things can take many years. And agencies are selective about what they look into.

I also agree that freelancers should never contact the companies whose names are copied by scammers. Doing so does not benefit the freelancer, and it does not benefit the company.

If I work at Microsoft, or if I work at Universal Studios, and somebody finds my contact information and calls me up or emails me to tell me that they were scammed by somebody claiming to work for Microsoft or Univeral Studios... somebody who offered to send me a check so that I could buy office equipment... Then that person is only wasting my time.

ANY company's name can be plugged into this scam script. If you tell me that my company's name was the name that some scammers are plugging into their script this week, what am I supposed to do about it?

[AleksandarD]

Hi Loucinda,

I'm sorry to hear about your experience. I checked the job post you were referring to and it seems that it's already been taken down because it was in violation of Upwork ToS and action has been taken on the client account. 

Please check out this post for more tips on how to avoid questionable jobs and please use the flag option found on each job post or message anytime you’d like to report a violation.

Thank you.

[lccarey122]

Thank you, Aleksandar.  

As a side note, I heard back from AbbVie today and they confirmed it was a scam and are forwarding the information on to their Cyber Security Team.