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renata101
Community Member

Re: Just How Low Can They Go?

I know the cheap client is a well-worn theme on this forum, but this one blows my mind. 

I was talking with a client today to try to figure out whether the dollar amount they listed on a fixed-price contract, $25, was a placer or not. 

It wasn't. 

What were they expecting for $25? Four hundred 15-minute samples of clear audio with 400 different British voices. I've done a contract with similar work and what this actually means is screening a lot of audio or editing it to come up with 15-minutes of clear sound per sample. The upshot is that the amount of time it takes to get 15 minutes of clear audio varies. It might sometimes take longer than 15 minutes because you may need apply noise reduction or cut out background music (there are ways to get around this a little, like speeding up the recording while you're screening it, but this can sometimes mean you compromise on quality). This doesn't take into account the amount of time you spend tracking down suitable sources. 

Even if you could achieve a 1-to-1 correspondence between the time you spent and the amount of clear audio you could reasonably come up with, this means your take home (if you didn't manage to land the generous $10 bonus) would be 25 cents an hour (before the UpWork fee is taken off, of course). Obviously, if you wanted to produce high-quality work, it would be less.  

Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention the best part of the story. I did a bit of research on the company, because the name shows up in some of the freelancer feedback (but not on the client account). I found an article from May of this year claiming that they had managed to raise $14M in Series A financing from a well-known tech giant. 

Is there a wall of shame somewhere for cow patties of this nature?
(Stronger language than I can post here was intended, so please feel free to mentally add your own.)

28 REPLIES 28
dzadza
Community Member

I thought of writing a rather long comment - but I know it will end up looking like hits * edited for community guidelines*, so I'll just say that UW in the past few months somehow managed to attract the lowest of the low - in both clients and freelancers.
07d84256
Community Member

I'm on both sides of the fence so I see this double time. I've had Clients be like "write 50 10,000 word articles 1$ an article!" but I've also had a freelancer be like "I know we're already partway through the project, and I agreed to and understood the price, but pay me more than double the budget per milestone or I quit!" People are greedy and you just can't please everyone haha.

schardo
Community Member

I saw one just yesterday that was paying $.002/word. Price non-negotiable.

Sure, I'll take $25 for 12,000 words. 

 

Now, I type 90 words a minute when I'm really cranking. Could I theoretically put down 5,000 words in an hour? I suppose. But that's typist stuff, not writing. Y'know, from my brain. 

 

I doubt there's anybody out there who could put together literate articles and keep within the $3/hour Upwork parameters but hey, that's their choice I guess. 

 

I'm cheap, but man, I'm not *that* cheap. 

gilbert-phyllis
Community Member

They're gonna wind up hiring some feckless FL who convinces them (and herself) that it's worthwhile grunt work to get a good closed contract. But she won't have done that task before. About 20% of the way along, she'll realize what she's gotten herself into. Well before it's half done, she'll demand more money and/or just bail. It will be sweet if they wind up wailing about it within earshot.

I think it would be AWESOME if Upwork was like a magic wishing well where I could throw in a few coins and get anything I want.


If that was actually possible, then I would do it.

 

But it's just not possible.

 

So the client's desires, as described in the original post, are simply irrelevent. They are like a child's wish upon a star.

florydev
Community Member

Although the client is a problem the real problem is someone will try to get that job.  


Mark F wrote:

Although the client is a problem the real problem is someone will try to get that job.  


I wish the issues associated with this one were limited to just those two. And I'm sorry, but I can't bring myself to fault people who need the money from seeking work (the people they've hired seem to come exclusively from countries outside the Europe, Canada and the US). US dollars mean something in certain parts of the world that most people in the US can't fathom.  

I've been to the company's warm, fuzzy website, where they list bios of the all of the company founders/prinicipals/board members. **Edited for Community Guidelines**

They describe themselves as "building a new, people-centered paradigm for business-critical communications."


Renata S wrote:

Mark F wrote:

Although the client is a problem the real problem is someone will try to get that job.  


I wish the issues associated with this one were limited to just those two. And I'm sorry, but I can't bring myself to fault people who need the money from seeking work (the people they've hired seem to come exclusively from countries outside the Europe, Canada and the US). US dollars mean something in certain parts of the world that most people in the US can't fathom.


No, I can fathom it, I just can't relate to it.  Just like someone in those parts of the world can't relate to my monthly expenses.

 

But if the employment is a boon to those parts of the world, then what is the problem?  If people are willing to do it, and it is good money to them, then who exactly are we judging here?


Mark F wrote:

But if the employment is a boon to those parts of the world, then what is the problem?  If people are willing to do it, and it is good money to them, then who exactly are we judging here?


A company with $14M in Series A funding from a US corporate tech giant that is hiring people for $3 an hour and significantly less than that (something like 25 cents and hour on the contract I was looking at). That's the main thing I'm having trouble contemplating. And the idea that they needed to get around the $3 an hour limit with a fixed-rate so that they could pay them even lower wages. 

Or, gee, is that just me? 


Renata S wrote:

Mark F wrote:

But if the employment is a boon to those parts of the world, then what is the problem?  If people are willing to do it, and it is good money to them, then who exactly are we judging here?


A company with $14M in Series A funding from a US corporate tech giant that is hiring people for $3 an hour. That's the main thing I'm having trouble contemplating. 


$14M sounds good to me I have to admit.

kat303
Community Member

There's always ways of getting around things such as the minimum rate either for fixed rate or hourly jobs. When it comes to "wealthy" clients there are 2 groups. One being that the client knows that to hire a professional, competent, experienced and skilled freelancer it will cost. The other group is the "cheap" client. who will try to pay the lowest amount they possibly can and get the most work. 

 

I've said before, and it looks like this job fits my assumption, that one day here, you'll see freelancers Paying a client to complete the client's work. This job falls into the lowest paid category. Others fall into the no payment category by providing free samples or mockups of the actual work in hopes that when the client gets the work, the clients will pay that freelancer. 

 

I posted a job a long time ago and will always remember one proposal I got. "I do good work, pay me what you think."  

The irony and facts are that even though this specific job would only pay 25 cents an hour there will be more than one freelancer submitting proposals for it.

Let alone when those job posts read "Urgent" or "Easy job" or "Pretty quick job for those who know what they are doing" Smiley LOL

 


Renata S wrote:
And I'm sorry, but I can't bring myself to fault people who need the money from seeking work (the people they've hired seem to come exclusively from countries outside the Europe, Canada and the US). US dollars mean something in certain parts of the world that most people in the US can't fathom.  

Well, I am not from Europe/Canada/US but I still know what I worth. I believe that is a problem because I realized that many clients take for granted that if you are not in Europe/Canada/US you ought to be cheap. I was kind of clueless about pricing when I started here, but not now. I guess those cheap clients aim at newbies who are desperate and/or lust for a first job. There are some who even put in the description "Great opportunity for first-timers" or "5 stars feedback guaranteed."

 

And I would suggest Upwork put a "Not decided yet" option for those clients who want to use a placeholder. I know it wouldn't happen but let me dream away.


Sergio S wrote:

Let alone when those job posts read "Urgent" or "Easy job" or "Pretty quick job for those who know what they are doing" Smiley LOL

 


Renata S wrote:
And I'm sorry, but I can't bring myself to fault people who need the money from seeking work (the people they've hired seem to come exclusively from countries outside the Europe, Canada and the US). US dollars mean something in certain parts of the world that most people in the US can't fathom.  

Well, I am not from Europe/Canada/US but I still know what I worth. I believe that is a problem because I realized that many clients take for granted that if you are not in Europe/Canada/US you ought to be cheap. I was kind of clueless about pricing when I started here, but not now. I guess those cheap clients aim at newbies who are desperate and/or lust for a first job. There are some who even put in the description "Great opportunity for first-timers" or "5 stars feedback guaranteed."

 

And I would suggest Upwork put a "Not decided yet" option for those clients who want to use a placeholder. I know it wouldn't happen but let me dream away.


I really didn't want to argue it out with her but I don't understand how you can say "this client is so cheap and is only paying peanuts" and then say "someone out there will be glad to have that money."  If the money is bad it would be nice if no one was willing to do it.  If someone is willing because they need the money enough to do the job then isn't that somewhat justifying that the client was right to bid that much?

 

Beyond anything else I really don't want to see Upwork get into determining the "correct" value of a job because I have no faith at all that will go in my favor.


Mark F wrote:

Sergio S wrote:

Let alone when those job posts read "Urgent" or "Easy job" or "Pretty quick job for those who know what they are doing" Smiley LOL

 


Renata S wrote:
And I'm sorry, but I can't bring myself to fault people who need the money from seeking work (the people they've hired seem to come exclusively from countries outside the Europe, Canada and the US). US dollars mean something in certain parts of the world that most people in the US can't fathom.  

Well, I am not from Europe/Canada/US but I still know what I worth. I believe that is a problem because I realized that many clients take for granted that if you are not in Europe/Canada/US you ought to be cheap. I was kind of clueless about pricing when I started here, but not now. I guess those cheap clients aim at newbies who are desperate and/or lust for a first job. There are some who even put in the description "Great opportunity for first-timers" or "5 stars feedback guaranteed."

 

And I would suggest Upwork put a "Not decided yet" option for those clients who want to use a placeholder. I know it wouldn't happen but let me dream away.


I really didn't want to argue it out with her but I don't understand how you can say "this client is so cheap and is only paying peanuts" and then say "someone out there will be glad to have that money."  If the money is bad it would be nice if no one was willing to do it.  If someone is willing because they need the money enough to do the job then isn't that somewhat justifying that the client was right to bid that much?


Well, I never said that. Did you quote me by mistake? I agree that if money is bad no-one should be willing to do that job. We are here to make money, not to be **Edited for Community Guidelines**. In fact, I explained that being outside US/Canada/Europe is a problem for me because many clients take for granted that I must be cheap and I am not. So when they click the worldwide option they expect to receive proposals from freelancers working for peanuts, because many unfortunately do it. Usually first-timers belong to that group and many clients take advantage of that.


Sergio S wrote:

Mark F wrote:

Sergio S wrote:

Let alone when those job posts read "Urgent" or "Easy job" or "Pretty quick job for those who know what they are doing" Smiley LOL

 


Renata S wrote:
And I'm sorry, but I can't bring myself to fault people who need the money from seeking work (the people they've hired seem to come exclusively from countries outside the Europe, Canada and the US). US dollars mean something in certain parts of the world that most people in the US can't fathom.  

Well, I am not from Europe/Canada/US but I still know what I worth. I believe that is a problem because I realized that many clients take for granted that if you are not in Europe/Canada/US you ought to be cheap. I was kind of clueless about pricing when I started here, but not now. I guess those cheap clients aim at newbies who are desperate and/or lust for a first job. There are some who even put in the description "Great opportunity for first-timers" or "5 stars feedback guaranteed."

 

And I would suggest Upwork put a "Not decided yet" option for those clients who want to use a placeholder. I know it wouldn't happen but let me dream away.


I really didn't want to argue it out with her but I don't understand how you can say "this client is so cheap and is only paying peanuts" and then say "someone out there will be glad to have that money."  If the money is bad it would be nice if no one was willing to do it.  If someone is willing because they need the money enough to do the job then isn't that somewhat justifying that the client was right to bid that much?


Well, I never said that. Did you quote me by mistake? I agree that if money is bad no-one should be willing to do that job. We are here to make money, not to be slaves. In fact, I explained that being outside US/Canada/Europe is a problem for me because many clients take for granted that I must be cheap and I am not. So when they click the worldwide option they expect to receive proposals from freelancers working for peanuts, because many unfortunately do it. Usually first-timers belong to that group and many clients take advantage of that.


No but the person you quoted did.  I was more or less agreeing with you so I am sorry if it came out that way. 


Sergio S wrote:

Mark F wrote:

Sergio S wrote:

Let alone when those job posts read "Urgent" or "Easy job" or "Pretty quick job for those who know what they are doing" Smiley LOL

 


Renata S wrote:
And I'm sorry, but I can't bring myself to fault people who need the money from seeking work (the people they've hired seem to come exclusively from countries outside the Europe, Canada and the US). US dollars mean something in certain parts of the world that most people in the US can't fathom.  

Well, I am not from Europe/Canada/US but I still know what I worth. I believe that is a problem because I realized that many clients take for granted that if you are not in Europe/Canada/US you ought to be cheap. I was kind of clueless about pricing when I started here, but not now. I guess those cheap clients aim at newbies who are desperate and/or lust for a first job. There are some who even put in the description "Great opportunity for first-timers" or "5 stars feedback guaranteed."

 

And I would suggest Upwork put a "Not decided yet" option for those clients who want to use a placeholder. I know it wouldn't happen but let me dream away.


I really didn't want to argue it out with her but I don't understand how you can say "this client is so cheap and is only paying peanuts" and then say "someone out there will be glad to have that money."  If the money is bad it would be nice if no one was willing to do it.  If someone is willing because they need the money enough to do the job then isn't that somewhat justifying that the client was right to bid that much?


Well, I never said that. Did you quote me by mistake? I agree that if money is bad no-one should be willing to do that job. We are here to make money, not to be slaves. In fact, I explained that being outside US/Canada/Europe is a problem for me because many clients take for granted that I must be cheap and I am not. So when they click the worldwide option they expect to receive proposals from freelancers working for peanuts, because many unfortunately do it. Usually first-timers belong to that group and many clients take advantage of that.


@Sergio I think I've been misquoted too. I didn't say that I thought they would be "happy to have the money." What I am saying I can't fault the contractors if they decide to do the job. Not everyone has the type of leverage they need (in terms of location, where their education comes from and how marketable they are perceived to be by clients)  to say no. I can't say someone is at fault to take a contract when they might not be offered much else, or when they want to establish themselves on the platform. 


Sergio S wrote:

Let alone when those job posts read "Urgent" or "Easy job" or "Pretty quick job for those who know what they are doing" Smiley LOL

 


Renata S wrote:
And I'm sorry, but I can't bring myself to fault people who need the money from seeking work (the people they've hired seem to come exclusively from countries outside the Europe, Canada and the US). US dollars mean something in certain parts of the world that most people in the US can't fathom.  

Well, I am not from Europe/Canada/US but I still know what I worth. I believe that is a problem because I realized that many clients take for granted that if you are not in Europe/Canada/US you ought to be cheap. I was kind of clueless about pricing when I started here, but not now. I guess those cheap clients aim at newbies who are desperate and/or lust for a first job. There are some who even put in the description "Great opportunity for first-timers" or "5 stars feedback guaranteed."

 

And I would suggest Upwork put a "Not decided yet" option for those clients who want to use a placeholder. I know it wouldn't happen but let me dream away.


Hi Sergio, 
It's not my intention to in any way suggest that anyone should be happy to earn **bleep** wages, let alone 25 cents an hour, just because of where they come from, especially if they've managed to get some higher education (which, by the way, isn't free in my country). I am saying that that's where the people they hired are from (for lack better words that won't get me into a heated argument about something I'm not saying -- maybe I should have just stuck with a different term like "poor countries" instead of outside North America (excluding Mexico) and Europe (excluding places where the cost of living is lower). But that's a little exhausting to read and keep track of, no?).  I am saying they may have their own reasons for taking a job that doesn't pay well (perhaps, for lack of other opportunities). 

@Marc, I never said that the people who took the work are "happy to take the money". I'm just saying that I "can't fault" people for doing jobs if they need to or if they thing having the experience will help them.  Also, it's a whole different deal if you have the type of skillset that consistently allows you to refuse contracts that don't measure up to your standards. That gives you the kind of leverage you need to say no. Not everyone is so lucky. 

I do think it's questionable for startups with $14M US in investment funding to use UpWork and the fixed-rate contracts to hire people for well under $3 an hour.  I just can't slap the people they hire on the hand for taking the money because I don't know why they've chosen to take the money (I'm assuming it's possible their their willingness to accept stupidly underfunded contracts may be different than people from richer countries who accept stupidly underfunded contracts). 

But according to what I'm hearing a couple of people saying on this thread, it's really the fault of the contractors they hire that a company with $14M can hire people for 25 cents an hour.  Wow. Really?

I asked. It wasn't a placeholder.

I'm done.  


Yeah, my bad.  I should have gone with my initial instincts and just back out of this...

 

Sorry that I misconstrued whatever I misconstrued.

Somebody who is actually in charge of $14 million does not try to get people to create videos for 25 cents an hour.


Not for any moral reasons, but because they are smart enough to not waste their time that way.

I think this one takes the cake...

 

I got an invitation to apply for a job a little while ago. I immediately knew this was NOT for me, but they were asking a few pertinent questions...and I thought, you know what, Irene? ANSWER them. And I did.

 

In summary, I told them my rate per 100 words (the offered rate was VERYYYYY low)...and I told them why that was my rate. I also told them their time expectations were ridiculous, and wanting to know my typing speed equally so. This is simply because, although I type really fast, I don't WRITE equally fast. The two have nothing in common. Furthermore, they expected a ridiculously fast turnaround for a project that demanded an insane amount of research. Getting the picture yet? 

 

Anyway... Suffice it to say, I was not deemed a fit. But something kept nagging me. And I resorted to google. I was SURE I had heard about them somewhere or the other. And I was right.

 

This company does not have the greatest track record and are known for their really cheap content creation. Upon further browsing, I found the rate they charged their CLIENTS was way below MY asking rate. They would be losing money big time if they had hired me. I have NO idea how this company could possibly make a profit. 


Mark F wrote:

Yeah, my bad.  I should have gone with my initial instincts and just back out of this...

 

Sorry that I misconstrued whatever I misconstrued.


Why back out?  That's not my intent either. It's a discussion. 

I'm just saying I don't buy the bit about it being the fault of the people who take the contracts that some companies that appear to have enough money have decided to post ridiculously underfunded contracts. That's been a standard line for a long time. There are a lot of reasons people may opt to take **bleep**ty paying contracts on this board. For one, they may be new to the board and they may want to build a presence. That's not as easy to do as it was a few years ago. They may want to start doing work that is more inline with their education than the previous jobs they've had and they may feel that taking underfunded contracts is the only way to do that.  

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, 
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. your philosophy

T


Kathy T wrote:

There's always ways of getting around things such as the minimum rate either for fixed rate or hourly jobs. When it comes to "wealthy" clients there are 2 groups. One being that the client knows that to hire a professional, competent, experienced and skilled freelancer it will cost. The other group is the "cheap" client. who will try to pay the lowest amount they possibly can and get the most work. 

 

I've said before, and it looks like this job is fits my assumption, that one day here, you'll see freelancers Paying a client to complete the client's work. This job falls into the lowest paid category. Other fall into the no payment category by providing free samples or mockup of the actual work in hopes that when the client gets the work, the clients will pay that freelancer. 

 

I posted a job a long time ago and will always remember one proposal I got. "I do good work, pay me what you think."  

The irony and facts are that even though this specific job would only pay 25 cents an hours there will be more then one freelancer submitting proposals for it.


I agree, seing so called freelancers trying to sell themselves for next to nothing is terrifying. I hope they understand that they are not just hurting themselves.


Luce N wrote:

T


Kathy T wrote:

There's always ways of getting around things such as the minimum rate either for fixed rate or hourly jobs. When it comes to "wealthy" clients there are 2 groups. One being that the client knows that to hire a professional, competent, experienced and skilled freelancer it will cost. The other group is the "cheap" client. who will try to pay the lowest amount they possibly can and get the most work. 

 

I've said before, and it looks like this job is fits my assumption, that one day here, you'll see freelancers Paying a client to complete the client's work. This job falls into the lowest paid category. Other fall into the no payment category by providing free samples or mockup of the actual work in hopes that when the client gets the work, the clients will pay that freelancer. 

 

I posted a job a long time ago and will always remember one proposal I got. "I do good work, pay me what you think."  

The irony and facts are that even though this specific job would only pay 25 cents an hours there will be more then one freelancer submitting proposals for it.


I agree, seing so called freelancers trying to sell themselves for next to nothing is terrifying. I hope they understand that they are not just hurting themselves.


I think so too, but it's similar to what people do when they take low-paid or unpaid internships. People sometimes take unpaid interships with big name companies or publications in the hopes of getting a job afterwards. Even the UN has unpaid internships in cities like New York, where the cost of living makes that seem unfathomable. 
https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2014/04/22/the-unhappy-rise-of-the-millennial-intern/#671c7c73...


The problem with any site like this is not so much the bottom feeders, the farmers, or the freelancers spoiling it for others (who is altruistic in this game?), but the perception both clients and freelancers get from the site's offer. "Affordable" for the client and "earn money, when you want, where you want" for the freelancer, are carrots that are hard to resist. Having freelanced for years, I think these incentives are outdated.

 

In a global sense, the affordable/earn scale is so vast and so varied that, unless one knows how to operate within it, must invariably lead to disappointment for both parties.

 

We all know that online job sites are not welfare states. They are profit-oriented businesses who will only protect their customers (clients and freelancers) up to a point and if it is in their own interests to do so.

 

However, it is up to them and their future to get that protection right, and I think it would be in their interests to change the tired carrot/donkey scenario and exact a level of professionalism in both client and freelancer that would help ensure profitability for all.


Renata S wrote:

Luce N wrote:

I agree, seing so called freelancers trying to sell themselves for next to nothing is terrifying. I hope they understand that they are not just hurting themselves.


I think so too, but it's similar to what people do when they take low-paid or unpaid internships. People sometimes take unpaid interships with big name companies or publications in the hopes of getting a job afterwards. Even the UN has unpaid internships in cities like New York, where the cost of living makes that seem unfathomable. 
https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2014/04/22/the-unhappy-rise-of-the-millennial-intern/#671c7c73...


Hi Renata! Thanks for the article. In this kind of world, you need to have rich parents to be able to afford an internship. This is totally stupid and unfair, particularly if you learn nothing during the internship!


Mark F wrote:

Although the client is a problem the real problem is someone will try to get that job.  


Although this might be seen as a completely different kettle of fish, how does that statement work in this case? Who is "the real problem" here?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/07/us/college-cheating-papers.html


Renata S wrote:


Although this might be seen as a completely different kettle of fish, how does that statement work in this case? Who is "the real problem" here?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/07/us/college-cheating-papers.html

 


This article is terrible, Renata! First, it shows how low students can go, how little they profit from their studies, how little respect they have for the money they parents spend for their studies. We can foresee the lack of real education this will result in, in wealthier countries.

 

Then you can see the dilemma this poses to students who find themselves forced to sell their talent to survive.

 

Last but not least, how despicable are the platforms who benefit from this trade!

There are "farmers" posing as freelancers on every platform, including this one, who specialize in homework/ academic fraud.  Always have been.  Like roaches, they are virtually indestructible.

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