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Re: Just How Low Can They Go?

Community Guru
Mark F Member Since: Jul 10, 2018
11 of 29

Renata S wrote:

Mark F wrote:

But if the employment is a boon to those parts of the world, then what is the problem?  If people are willing to do it, and it is good money to them, then who exactly are we judging here?


A company with $14M in Series A funding from a US corporate tech giant that is hiring people for $3 an hour. That's the main thing I'm having trouble contemplating. 


$14M sounds good to me I have to admit.

Community Guru
Kathy T Member Since: Jul 17, 2015
12 of 29

There's always ways of getting around things such as the minimum rate either for fixed rate or hourly jobs. When it comes to "wealthy" clients there are 2 groups. One being that the client knows that to hire a professional, competent, experienced and skilled freelancer it will cost. The other group is the "cheap" client. who will try to pay the lowest amount they possibly can and get the most work. 

 

I've said before, and it looks like this job fits my assumption, that one day here, you'll see freelancers Paying a client to complete the client's work. This job falls into the lowest paid category. Others fall into the no payment category by providing free samples or mockups of the actual work in hopes that when the client gets the work, the clients will pay that freelancer. 

 

I posted a job a long time ago and will always remember one proposal I got. "I do good work, pay me what you think."  

The irony and facts are that even though this specific job would only pay 25 cents an hour there will be more than one freelancer submitting proposals for it.

Community Guru
Sergio S Member Since: Dec 19, 2017
13 of 29

Let alone when those job posts read "Urgent" or "Easy job" or "Pretty quick job for those who know what they are doing" Smiley LOL

 


Renata S wrote:
And I'm sorry, but I can't bring myself to fault people who need the money from seeking work (the people they've hired seem to come exclusively from countries outside the Europe, Canada and the US). US dollars mean something in certain parts of the world that most people in the US can't fathom.  

Well, I am not from Europe/Canada/US but I still know what I worth. I believe that is a problem because I realized that many clients take for granted that if you are not in Europe/Canada/US you ought to be cheap. I was kind of clueless about pricing when I started here, but not now. I guess those cheap clients aim at newbies who are desperate and/or lust for a first job. There are some who even put in the description "Great opportunity for first-timers" or "5 stars feedback guaranteed."

 

And I would suggest Upwork put a "Not decided yet" option for those clients who want to use a placeholder. I know it wouldn't happen but let me dream away.

Community Guru
Mark F Member Since: Jul 10, 2018
14 of 29

Sergio S wrote:

Let alone when those job posts read "Urgent" or "Easy job" or "Pretty quick job for those who know what they are doing" Smiley LOL

 


Renata S wrote:
And I'm sorry, but I can't bring myself to fault people who need the money from seeking work (the people they've hired seem to come exclusively from countries outside the Europe, Canada and the US). US dollars mean something in certain parts of the world that most people in the US can't fathom.  

Well, I am not from Europe/Canada/US but I still know what I worth. I believe that is a problem because I realized that many clients take for granted that if you are not in Europe/Canada/US you ought to be cheap. I was kind of clueless about pricing when I started here, but not now. I guess those cheap clients aim at newbies who are desperate and/or lust for a first job. There are some who even put in the description "Great opportunity for first-timers" or "5 stars feedback guaranteed."

 

And I would suggest Upwork put a "Not decided yet" option for those clients who want to use a placeholder. I know it wouldn't happen but let me dream away.


I really didn't want to argue it out with her but I don't understand how you can say "this client is so cheap and is only paying peanuts" and then say "someone out there will be glad to have that money."  If the money is bad it would be nice if no one was willing to do it.  If someone is willing because they need the money enough to do the job then isn't that somewhat justifying that the client was right to bid that much?

 

Beyond anything else I really don't want to see Upwork get into determining the "correct" value of a job because I have no faith at all that will go in my favor.

Community Guru
Sergio S Member Since: Dec 19, 2017
15 of 29

Mark F wrote:

Sergio S wrote:

Let alone when those job posts read "Urgent" or "Easy job" or "Pretty quick job for those who know what they are doing" Smiley LOL

 


Renata S wrote:
And I'm sorry, but I can't bring myself to fault people who need the money from seeking work (the people they've hired seem to come exclusively from countries outside the Europe, Canada and the US). US dollars mean something in certain parts of the world that most people in the US can't fathom.  

Well, I am not from Europe/Canada/US but I still know what I worth. I believe that is a problem because I realized that many clients take for granted that if you are not in Europe/Canada/US you ought to be cheap. I was kind of clueless about pricing when I started here, but not now. I guess those cheap clients aim at newbies who are desperate and/or lust for a first job. There are some who even put in the description "Great opportunity for first-timers" or "5 stars feedback guaranteed."

 

And I would suggest Upwork put a "Not decided yet" option for those clients who want to use a placeholder. I know it wouldn't happen but let me dream away.


I really didn't want to argue it out with her but I don't understand how you can say "this client is so cheap and is only paying peanuts" and then say "someone out there will be glad to have that money."  If the money is bad it would be nice if no one was willing to do it.  If someone is willing because they need the money enough to do the job then isn't that somewhat justifying that the client was right to bid that much?


Well, I never said that. Did you quote me by mistake? I agree that if money is bad no-one should be willing to do that job. We are here to make money, not to be **Edited for Community Guidelines**. In fact, I explained that being outside US/Canada/Europe is a problem for me because many clients take for granted that I must be cheap and I am not. So when they click the worldwide option they expect to receive proposals from freelancers working for peanuts, because many unfortunately do it. Usually first-timers belong to that group and many clients take advantage of that.

Community Guru
Mark F Member Since: Jul 10, 2018
16 of 29

Sergio S wrote:

Mark F wrote:

Sergio S wrote:

Let alone when those job posts read "Urgent" or "Easy job" or "Pretty quick job for those who know what they are doing" Smiley LOL

 


Renata S wrote:
And I'm sorry, but I can't bring myself to fault people who need the money from seeking work (the people they've hired seem to come exclusively from countries outside the Europe, Canada and the US). US dollars mean something in certain parts of the world that most people in the US can't fathom.  

Well, I am not from Europe/Canada/US but I still know what I worth. I believe that is a problem because I realized that many clients take for granted that if you are not in Europe/Canada/US you ought to be cheap. I was kind of clueless about pricing when I started here, but not now. I guess those cheap clients aim at newbies who are desperate and/or lust for a first job. There are some who even put in the description "Great opportunity for first-timers" or "5 stars feedback guaranteed."

 

And I would suggest Upwork put a "Not decided yet" option for those clients who want to use a placeholder. I know it wouldn't happen but let me dream away.


I really didn't want to argue it out with her but I don't understand how you can say "this client is so cheap and is only paying peanuts" and then say "someone out there will be glad to have that money."  If the money is bad it would be nice if no one was willing to do it.  If someone is willing because they need the money enough to do the job then isn't that somewhat justifying that the client was right to bid that much?


Well, I never said that. Did you quote me by mistake? I agree that if money is bad no-one should be willing to do that job. We are here to make money, not to be slaves. In fact, I explained that being outside US/Canada/Europe is a problem for me because many clients take for granted that I must be cheap and I am not. So when they click the worldwide option they expect to receive proposals from freelancers working for peanuts, because many unfortunately do it. Usually first-timers belong to that group and many clients take advantage of that.


No but the person you quoted did.  I was more or less agreeing with you so I am sorry if it came out that way. 

Community Guru
Renata S Member Since: Jun 10, 2014
17 of 29

Sergio S wrote:

Mark F wrote:

Sergio S wrote:

Let alone when those job posts read "Urgent" or "Easy job" or "Pretty quick job for those who know what they are doing" Smiley LOL

 


Renata S wrote:
And I'm sorry, but I can't bring myself to fault people who need the money from seeking work (the people they've hired seem to come exclusively from countries outside the Europe, Canada and the US). US dollars mean something in certain parts of the world that most people in the US can't fathom.  

Well, I am not from Europe/Canada/US but I still know what I worth. I believe that is a problem because I realized that many clients take for granted that if you are not in Europe/Canada/US you ought to be cheap. I was kind of clueless about pricing when I started here, but not now. I guess those cheap clients aim at newbies who are desperate and/or lust for a first job. There are some who even put in the description "Great opportunity for first-timers" or "5 stars feedback guaranteed."

 

And I would suggest Upwork put a "Not decided yet" option for those clients who want to use a placeholder. I know it wouldn't happen but let me dream away.


I really didn't want to argue it out with her but I don't understand how you can say "this client is so cheap and is only paying peanuts" and then say "someone out there will be glad to have that money."  If the money is bad it would be nice if no one was willing to do it.  If someone is willing because they need the money enough to do the job then isn't that somewhat justifying that the client was right to bid that much?


Well, I never said that. Did you quote me by mistake? I agree that if money is bad no-one should be willing to do that job. We are here to make money, not to be slaves. In fact, I explained that being outside US/Canada/Europe is a problem for me because many clients take for granted that I must be cheap and I am not. So when they click the worldwide option they expect to receive proposals from freelancers working for peanuts, because many unfortunately do it. Usually first-timers belong to that group and many clients take advantage of that.


@Sergio I think I've been misquoted too. I didn't say that I thought they would be "happy to have the money." What I am saying I can't fault the contractors if they decide to do the job. Not everyone has the type of leverage they need (in terms of location, where their education comes from and how marketable they are perceived to be by clients)  to say no. I can't say someone is at fault to take a contract when they might not be offered much else, or when they want to establish themselves on the platform. 

Community Guru
Renata S Member Since: Jun 10, 2014
18 of 29

Sergio S wrote:

Let alone when those job posts read "Urgent" or "Easy job" or "Pretty quick job for those who know what they are doing" Smiley LOL

 


Renata S wrote:
And I'm sorry, but I can't bring myself to fault people who need the money from seeking work (the people they've hired seem to come exclusively from countries outside the Europe, Canada and the US). US dollars mean something in certain parts of the world that most people in the US can't fathom.  

Well, I am not from Europe/Canada/US but I still know what I worth. I believe that is a problem because I realized that many clients take for granted that if you are not in Europe/Canada/US you ought to be cheap. I was kind of clueless about pricing when I started here, but not now. I guess those cheap clients aim at newbies who are desperate and/or lust for a first job. There are some who even put in the description "Great opportunity for first-timers" or "5 stars feedback guaranteed."

 

And I would suggest Upwork put a "Not decided yet" option for those clients who want to use a placeholder. I know it wouldn't happen but let me dream away.


Hi Sergio, 
It's not my intention to in any way suggest that anyone should be happy to earn **bleep** wages, let alone 25 cents an hour, just because of where they come from, especially if they've managed to get some higher education (which, by the way, isn't free in my country). I am saying that that's where the people they hired are from (for lack better words that won't get me into a heated argument about something I'm not saying -- maybe I should have just stuck with a different term like "poor countries" instead of outside North America (excluding Mexico) and Europe (excluding places where the cost of living is lower). But that's a little exhausting to read and keep track of, no?).  I am saying they may have their own reasons for taking a job that doesn't pay well (perhaps, for lack of other opportunities). 

@Marc, I never said that the people who took the work are "happy to take the money". I'm just saying that I "can't fault" people for doing jobs if they need to or if they thing having the experience will help them.  Also, it's a whole different deal if you have the type of skillset that consistently allows you to refuse contracts that don't measure up to your standards. That gives you the kind of leverage you need to say no. Not everyone is so lucky. 

I do think it's questionable for startups with $14M US in investment funding to use UpWork and the fixed-rate contracts to hire people for well under $3 an hour.  I just can't slap the people they hire on the hand for taking the money because I don't know why they've chosen to take the money (I'm assuming it's possible their their willingness to accept stupidly underfunded contracts may be different than people from richer countries who accept stupidly underfunded contracts). 

But according to what I'm hearing a couple of people saying on this thread, it's really the fault of the contractors they hire that a company with $14M can hire people for 25 cents an hour.  Wow. Really?

I asked. It wasn't a placeholder.

I'm done.  


Community Guru
Mark F Member Since: Jul 10, 2018
19 of 29

Yeah, my bad.  I should have gone with my initial instincts and just back out of this...

 

Sorry that I misconstrued whatever I misconstrued.

Community Guru
Preston H Member Since: Nov 24, 2014
20 of 29

Somebody who is actually in charge of $14 million does not try to get people to create videos for 25 cents an hour.


Not for any moral reasons, but because they are smart enough to not waste their time that way.

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