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lohani24
Community Member

The Plight of a Brown Freelancer (with decent writing & a higher rate)

Well we all know that the **Edited for Community Guidelines** charges less and also does not produce top quality simply due to their non native standards of English. There are sure hoards of them but then a few of them are brilliant writers and researchers.

But, it is the stereotyping that bugs me like this. With America under the seige of its own illusions of **Edited for Community Guidelines**, the incessant cry for native speakers in every job post does not sound very different from the former. 'Good' writing goes beyond the capability to form coherent sentences in a language and by that I mean - native writers can write awful pieces.

 

I am not really complaining here because I see no way around this thing. Clients will always first see my country which will open the floodgates of bad experiences probably. It just is that I am expected to charge a lower rate here. But, if I do charge a 30/hr like my western counterparts, I probably will not get hired because if you gotta pay that rate, then better hire someone who you inherently trust.

That is a badge I will always have on my head.

(Issa just an intense morning with me today ~\*_*/~)

29 REPLIES 29
prestonhunter
Community Member

Ayusha:
The problem is not you. And the problem is not genuinely skilled people like yourself.


The problem is all of the freelancers from your country whose work is really awful. That is why people from around the world (not just in the U.S.) have a certain expectation about the level of quality they can expect from typical freelancers who live in your country.

 

As your post points out, most of these "hoards" (to use your word) can not write or use English at anywhere near your level. If "clients will always first see my country" (which I think is often true), then they are considering where you live, not your complexion.

 

And just to clarify one other thing: If clients want to hire writers who possess native-level English language capabilities, or are native English speakers, that is a legitimate requirement for a writing job. This is not analogous to skin color.

Yes Preston I see your point here which is why I specifically put in the post 'not complaining' because the work demands high standards of English. And I also know the fact that it is my country, not my color. It just happens that a huge section of non natives are brown. The entire SA area. So my choice of using the color in the title is more of a choice in a rhetorical sense. It is so that if a brown freelancer does read this, something snaps in their heads and they relate. And not just someone from my country but all the surrounding ones too.


Preston H wrote:

Ayusha:
The problem is not you. And the problem is not genuinely skilled people like yourself.


The problem is all of the freelancers from your country whose work is really awful. That is why people from around the world (not just in the U.S.) have a certain expectation about the level of quality they can expect from typical freelancers who live in your country.

 

As your post points out, most of these "hoards" (to use your word) can not write or use English at anywhere near your level. If "clients will always first see my country" (which I think is often true), then they are considering where you live, not your complexion.

 

And just to clarify one other thing: If clients want to hire writers who possess native-level English language capabilities, or are native English speakers, that is a legitimate requirement for a writing job. This is not analogous to skin color.


Always keep in mind what Mark, Wendy and Preston said.

Preston:

 

I was perusing some threads in this community section when I stumbled upon this.

 

"The problem is all of the freelancers from your country whose work is really awful. That is why people from around the world (not just in the U.S.) have a certain expectation about the level of quality they can expect from typical freelancers who live in your country."

 

This sentence is a sweeping generalization that is both xenophobic and patronizing.

 

Seriously? You can speak to "all of the freelancers from your country" and the expectations of "people from around the world"? The "whose work is really awful"  does not come across as a limiting modifying phrase, especially when you later describe the freelancers as "typical."

 

I was thinking of remaining silent because I don't want to be skewered by the community gurus, but silence equals acceptance. I cannot accept this language.

 

Preston, I'm sure you respect all people equally and did not intend for this message to be read as disrespectful in any way. I, too, respect you, your opinions, and your right to express your opinions.


Alison D wrote:

Preston, I'm sure you respect all people equally and did not intend for this message to be read as disrespectful in any way. 


I would hazard a guess it was meant to be understood exactly as it was written.

And I agree with you.

florydev
Community Member

Ayushi, I can't claim to truly understand but I can sympathize.  Just so you know that it is not all wine and roses on the other side there is a counter problem on this platform for people in my industry of why should I pay you $X when I get someone from {somewhere} that will do it for a mere fraction of what you would charge?  My answer is basically go ahead and do that and let me know how it goes.  And since I, like you, also charge significantly more than most other's in my industry and in my country I also have to fight the battle of why are you more expensive than Joe Bob?

 

I know what I am doing.  If Joe Bob knows what he is doing and he can deliver just as well as I can then one of us is making a mistake and I am pretty sure it's Joe Bob.

 

Again the battle we are fighting is not the same but I also think it is pretty similar and I wonder if  a lot of it is about the fact that a signficant portion of the people out there are not really worthwhile no matter where they are at.  They may even be good at what they do but they are good at doing as a someone's employee.  They don't understand they are running their own business, they don't understand they are selling and marketing to customers.  They think they are doing jobs for employers.

 

There are a lot of clients out there that don't seem to care (or don't know enough to) and just want cheap.  Those are not my clients.  Those are not your clients.  We have to sift through them and find the ones that actually work for us.  Having a high rate, success, and having bold. confident statements about ourselves will auto-sift a lot of them.  I don't know how many client's that leaves you but I can tell you there is not a ton out there for me.  But you have found some and I bet you will continue to find more.

 

If I were you I would rethink what you are saying in your profile.  You start with the issue of your nationality, it seems a bit defensively to me, and I think instead you should make a bold statement about your abilities.  The best way, I think...and clearly what the f' do I know, is to be such a presence they don't care where you are from.  People looking your cheaper countrymen will never see your profile anyway so why speak to it?

 

Anyone who thinks they can get you on the cheap is not your client and they deserve whatever they get.

 

Thanks Mark for your advice. I sure will change that. I guess I was just doing an experiment there which birthed due to pure frustration!

 

 

There is nothing wrong with an expirement or the message (or the frustration) I just think you can do it in a more subtle way that might work better.  I might be more tempted to say something like...

 

The most important aspect of the work I do, for me, is quality so if you are looking for cheap labor then I am not the freelancer for you.

 

I don't know that it is any better but you don't even make the country you live in an issue until it is.

 

Stay as strong to your rate as is reasonable.  I also hope you stick around I would like to know more about your journey. This is actually something I have a hard time with, am I worth many multiples more than someone from another country and why?  The best answer I have come up with and it is entirely ego driven is that I am just that much better than everyone no matter where they are from Smiley Wink.


Mark F wrote:

 

  I also hope you stick around I would like to know more about your journey. This is actually something I have a hard time with, am I worth many multiples more than someone from another country and why?  The best answer I have come up with and it is entirely ego driven is that I am just that much better than everyone no matter where they are from Smiley Wink.

Thanks Mark! I would sure stick around. Having recently found this community space, I realize I quite like it.
Haha, and as much as it is ego driven, there is a certain objectivity to it I guess. I personally hate the idea of being 'better' than others. It is very inherently capitalist. The reason I like Upwork is it has the power to go beyond this sort of capitalist sentiment by giving everyone a sort of space - a certain set of clients.

Even for those freelancers who do not have the best English speaking skills, there is a certain set of clients. These could be really small and new businesses which cannot bear spending that much so they prefer a rough draft of medium quality and then spend time editing it themselves.

martina_plaschka
Community Member

I believe I lose out on a lot of jobs for German translation because I live in Austria. Many clients put in location Germany as preference. Now I could apply and tell them that I am an native German speaker, or not apply, but I will not write a first sentence in capital letters on my profile saying GERMAN IS SPOKEN IN AUSTRIA AND NO, IT'S NOT AUSTRALIA! because that is not making the connection to a potential client that I'm seeking.  

Yeah Martina! I understand. And also about the comment on my bio. That is just something I would never like to do. But it was more of a frustrated moment where I wrote that. You know when your past 5 clients have discussed projects with you, and you have spent time sending them elaborate messages outlining the work and then after a series of 10 messages, they try and negotiate for you to write a 1k word article (mind you, with research) in like 8-10$. Plus it is more of a experiment. I am just trying to dissuade clients from getting into conversations if they have a very low budget.


Ayushi V wrote:

Yeah Martina! I understand. And also about the comment on my bio. That is just something I would never like to do. But it was more of a frustrated moment where I wrote that. You know when your past 5 clients have discussed projects with you, and you have spent time sending them elaborate messages outlining the work and then after a series of 10 messages, they try and negotiate for you to write a 1k word article (mind you, with research) in like 8-10$. Plus it is more of a experiment. I am just trying to dissuade clients from getting into conversations if they have a very low budget.


I understand the frustration, and it probably does dissuade many cheap clients, but is also offputting to better clients, and ultimately unprofessional. Your profile looks much nicer now! 🙂

Ayushi, much improved profile! Good for you for following Mark's advice.


Martina P wrote:

I believe I lose out on a lot of jobs for German translation because I live in Austria. Many clients put in location Germany as preference.


Try living in Italy....


Petra R wrote:

Martina P wrote:

I believe I lose out on a lot of jobs for German translation because I live in Austria. Many clients put in location Germany as preference.


Try living in Italy....


Or Norway...
But I thing we are probably lose out on the jobs because of Google, DeepL, Bing... and scammers that sell machine translations for rates that are too low for human translations to compete with.

lysis10
Community Member

OP, someone keeps spelling your name wrong on your profile feedback.

florydev
Community Member


Jennifer M wrote:

OP, someone keeps spelling your name wrong on your profile feedback.


Oh f me...


Jennifer M wrote:

OP, someone keeps spelling your name wrong on your profile feedback.


Doh!

And here's somebody else under the 'other' name with much of the same pitch from her profile. 
https://www.freelancer.com/u/i**bleep**alohani 

**bleep**. This is years old!


Jamie F wrote:

Jennifer M wrote:

OP, someone keeps spelling your name wrong on your profile feedback.


Doh!

And here's somebody else under the 'other' name with much of the same pitch from her profile. 
https://www.freelancer.com/u/i**bleep**alohani 



**bleep**! I did not know that existed. Me and IL went to college together and found freelancing together and I guess at that time we made the account on Upwork and on freelancer and were hardly aware of the norms and rules so we would work together and everything. This is I think some 7-8 years ago. Since then, she has quit freelancing mostly and gone on to work full time with an organization. But do you think this can be a problem? Should I somehow delete this other profile on freelancer? I don't even remember the login details.

Quote: **bleep**! I did not know that existed. Me and IL went to college together and found freelancing together and I guess at that time we made the account on Upwork and on freelancer and were hardly aware of the norms and rules so we would work together and everything. This is I think some 7-8 years ago... Should I somehow delete this other profile on freelancer? I don't even remember the login details.

 

I don't get it. How can you delete someone else's profile?

 

What do you mean "we made the account" ? Your English is pretty good, aside from frequent misspellings/typos and minor errors and oddly formal sentence constructions typical of a non-native speaker, so I would not expect you to use the plural first person ("we") to refer to yourself.

You seem to have also mistakenly listed under "my testimonials" on your profile, a testimonial that was left explicitly for your colleague IT: "The best part is that, once you hire her, she will be there for you always, making edits in the documents even at the oddest of times"

 


Drew D wrote:

You seem to have also mistakenly listed under "my testimonials" on your profile, a testimonial that was left explicitly for your colleague IT: "The best part is that, once you hire her, she will be there for you always, making edits in the documents even at the oddest of times"

 


I see you have now deleted that section. Good idea. However, the majority of your currently listed portfolio items are also, by your own admission, not written by you, but your colleague IT. 

 

You claimed: "Clients will always first see my country which will open the floodgates of bad experiences probably."

 

It's quite likely, actually, that prospective clients are being put off by your constantly claiming someone else's work as your own. Prospective clients do read your reviews, as well as your portfolio pieces, and will be picking up the same things we are. 

 

From now on, I suggest you always market your services based on your own work, rather than that of others. 


Ayushi V wrote:

**bleep**. This is years old!


Jamie F wrote:

Jennifer M wrote:

OP, someone keeps spelling your name wrong on your profile feedback.


Doh!

And here's somebody else under the 'other' name with much of the same pitch from her profile. 
https://www.freelancer.com/u/i**bleep**alohani 



**bleep**! I did not know that existed. Me and IL went to college together and found freelancing together and I guess at that time we made the account on Upwork and on freelancer and were hardly aware of the norms and rules so we would work together and everything. This is I think some 7-8 years ago. Since then, she has quit freelancing mostly and gone on to work full time with an organization. But do you think this can be a problem? Should I somehow delete this other profile on freelancer? I don't even remember the login details.


Clearly more than one person used your upwork profile. This is disappointing. You know that can get you suspended in a snap, right?

richard-santiago
Community Member

Its her/his choice if a client wants to work with native english speaker. If you are good then nothing can stop you. In past i had worked with clients from USA, UK, Ireland, Germany, Belgium and Poland.

 

This has nothing to Brown freelancer.

 

Another upwork member said that your profile was much better. So, i just want to guess how your earlier profile would look like. Because in just first and brief glance at your profile, one could spot grammatical mistakes in first few lines....

Certified Nutritionist and Published Health Writer
                                (I would use Accomplished instead of Published)
 

8 years of experience as a Nutritionist and Health Writer ('is') here to help you expand your business, reach and revenue

                                            (I guess correct one is below)

 

A Nutritionist & Health writer with 8+ years of expience is here to help you.........



 


Kishor P wrote:

8 years of experience as a Nutritionist and Health Writer ('is') here to help you expand your business, reach and revenue

                                            (I guess correct one is below)

 

A Nutritionist & Health writer with 8+ years of expience is here to help you.........



 


Thanks Kishore for pointing this out. I would have never noticed! This is majorly a typo. I forgot to put the 'I'm' in front of here.

And about your guessing as to how my profile looked earlier, it was just an added line in place of the one you just corrected about how I will not work for cheap simply due to my location. As I said, my intense morning and a nit bit of frustration with a client or two lead me to just pour myself out there.

I don't really agree with the part that it has nothing to do with the color of the skin here. Everything, everytime has something to do with race, color, identities. I believe we humans are steroetypers fundamentally somewhere. We like seeing things in flocks and groups and fail to recognize the individual subjectivity.

And seeing from a different perspective here, I have also worked with clients from US, UK, France, Russia, Australia and NZ. That is not the point here. The point is that I am being made aware of my location and my color in a particular way that many do not have to be. There are many shades to this sort of discrimination. One cannot see it as linearly as a matter of pure choice.





I don't really agree with the part that it has nothing to do with the color of the skin here. Everything, everytime has something to do with race, color, identities. I believe we humans are steroetypers fundamentally somewhere. We like seeing things in flocks and groups and fail to recognize the individual subjectivity.



Perhaps Rumi will cheer you up. 🙂 Rumi “What can I do, Muslims? I do not know myself.
I am neither Christian nor Jew, neither Magian nor Muslim,
I am not from east or west, not from land or sea,
not from the shafts of nature nor from the spheres of the firmament,
not of the earth, not of water, not of air, not of fire.
I am not from the highest heaven, not from this world,
not from existence, not from being.
I am not from India, not from China, not from Bulgar, not from Saqsin,
not from the realm of the two Iraqs, not from the land of Khurasan.
I am not from the world, not from beyond,
not from heaven and not from hell.
I am not from Adam, not from Eve, not from paradise and not from Ridwan.
My place is placeless, my trace is traceless,
no body, no soul, I am from the soul of souls.
I have chased out duality, lived the two worlds as one.
One I seek, one I know, one I see, one I call.
He is the first, he is the last, he is the outer, he is the inner.
Beyond He and He is I know no other.
I am drunk from the cup of love, the two worlds have escaped me.
I have no concern but carouse and rapture.
If one day in my life I spend a moment without you
from that hour and that time I would repent my life.
If one day I am given a moment in solitude with you
I will trample the two worlds underfoot and dance forever.
O Sun of Tabriz, I am so tipsy here in this world,
I have no tale to tell but tipsiness and rapture.”

― Jelalludin Rumi

 

 

Zeeshan! Rumi is love.
and his message is priceless!


Ayushi V wrote:

I don't really agree with the part that it has nothing to do with the color of the skin here. Everything, everytime has something to do with race, color, identities.

Janean made a great remark "oddly formal sentence constructions typical of a non-native speaker" ... this is one of the main reasons a native is preferred over a non-native when it comes about writing.


Clients might be willing to pay US freelancers higher rates because they believe that education and living costs are much higher compared to other countries.


I saw once some statistics .... the average hourly rate on Upwork under the writing category was somewhere in between 15-25 USD. There are freelancers from different countries that charge much more but the rates depend mostly on the targeted market, education, working experience, marketing skills.

 

You might see some "wild" rates here on Upwork but you must take also in consideration the fact that in the US the federal minimum hourly rate is 7.25 USD ... charging 30$/hour is a good pay for a US freelancer in some small county ... as a non-native you have to offer something above what an average US freelancer offers for the same rate ... it's not about where you come from, it's about the value of the work for the same rate.

kochubei_valeria
Community Member

Hi All,

 

This thread has been closed from further replies. Please check out Community Guidelines and make sure your posts don't include personal attacks and public accusations of misconduct. 

 

Thank you. 

 

 

~ Valeria
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