What is the truth?

[colettelewis]

A thread has recently been abruptly closed because uncomfortable questions are being asked about circumvention. 

Does circumvention apply to clients? Because I don't believe it does. 

[petra_r]

---

@Nichola L wrote:

A thread has recently been abruptly closed because uncomfortable questions are being asked about circumvention. 

Does circumvention apply to clients? Because I don't believe it does. 

---

 Oh it does!  But it's gone to guys who deal with that sort of thing so...

[versailles]

---

@Nichola L wrote:

Does circumvention apply to clients? Because I don't believe it does. 

---

You believe that Upwork doesn't care if a client decides to circumvent them and cheat them out of their fees?

[colettelewis]

---

@Rene K wrote:

---

@Nichola L wrote:

Does circumvention apply to clients? Because I don't believe it does. 

---

You believe that Upwork doesn't care if a client decides to circumvent them and cheat them out of their fees?

---

 ______________________

Let's say that I don't believe Upwork's circumvention rules are quite so stringently applied to clients as to freelancers. 

[prestonhunter]

In the same way that a brick-and-mortar store's policies are more stringently applied to its employees as compared to its customers?

[versailles]

---

@Nichola L wrote:

---

Let's say that I don't believe Upwork's circumvention rules are quite so stringently applied to clients as to freelancers. 

---

This would be extremely weird, but none of my concerns. But weird. I can't see how Upwork may benefit from circumvention, which is by definition the act not paying them any fees. A customer who shoplifts is of zero value to a store. 

That being said, if Upwork allows a specific client to pay me off-platform, if that's Ok with them, then I'm totally fine. Not paying the fees and Upwork being happy with it? Anytime.

[nicola1979]

If a client is not allowed to work on Upwork for any reason, for example if the client lives in a country with some restrictions (e.g. Iran), then the circumvention rule does not apply and they can pay you directly. It happened to me, I contacted the support to know how to proceed, if I was allowed to work directly off-platform with a client that cannot use Upwork to hire me, but contacted me here, and they guaranteed that in that particular case I was not violating any rules working directly with this client.

[colettelewis]

---

@Nicola P wrote:

If a client is not allowed to work on Upwork for any reason, for example if the client lives in a country with some restrictions (e.g. Iran), then the circumvention rule does not apply and they can pay you directly. It happened to me, I contacted the support to know how to proceed, if I was allowed to work directly off-platform with a client that cannot use Upwork to hire me, but contacted me here, and they guaranteed that in that particular case I was not violating any rules working directly with this client.

---

 ___________________________

How did the client find you without creating an account first? 

[nicola1979]

She created the account and invited me to interview. We discussed and agreed about price and delivery dates even if the payment method was not verified yet. I have spoken many times with clients without a verified payment method and then everything went smoothly in funding milestones, hiring and releasing payments, so I was not worried. After 1-2 days, she contacted me again telling me she wasn't able to hire me because she was located in Iran (the profile said Estonia...), so I contacted support to ask how to proceed with this client, etc...

Since the profile was indicating Estonia, maybe she indicated another location and/or used a VPN, I never asked her about this.

The job went however perfectly and I was paid all the requested amount in advance plus a bonus at the end.

[wendy_writes]

Along with Nicola's example, countries end up on 'do not touch' list at the whim (justified or not) of the govt.  There is not a warning period; it is a sudden in-place restriction.  Depending on timing, this could well impact client &FLer.

[mwiggenhorn]

And an American freelancer who took a job from Iran, even off the platform, would be breaking a whole host of laws.  Be careful.

[prestonhunter]

When you think about it... the list of countries not allowed to use Upwork is actually amazingly small.

5

Eligibility to Join Upwork

(I think it would be great if the number was zero, but it's not up to me.)

[VladimirG]

Hi Nicola,

To clarify for the benefit of other users, I checked your communication with our team and the client you communicated with, and can confirm our team took action against the client's account and advised you that you won't be able to communicate or work with them through Upwork. To reiterate, users located in countries/regions listed in the Help article Preston shared are not allowed to use the platform for the reasons included in the article, and we'd strongly advise to refrain from engaging with users who you find are in violation of Upwork ToS and flag them as a violation. In closing, note that while it's fine to refer (not quote) to a communication a user had with our team, sharing incorrect details about the information our team provided can cause confusion and isn't allowed.

[nicola1979]

Hi Vladimir,

Sorry, it was not my intention to confuse anyone.

I reported the situation to support when I discovered about her location and a representative has told what me to do next, and this is exactly what I did to be sure I was not violating any rules.

[colettelewis]

---

@Nicola P wrote:

If a client is not allowed to work on Upwork for any reason, for example if the client lives in a country with some restrictions (e.g. Iran), then the circumvention rule does not apply and they can pay you directly. It happened to me, I contacted the support to know how to proceed, if I was allowed to work directly off-platform with a client that cannot use Upwork to hire me, but contacted me here, and they guaranteed that in that particular case I was not violating any rules working directly with this client.

---

___________________________________________
Which brings us straight back to who is allowed to lie about their location and who is not. As Mary said, be careful. 

[resultsassoc]

The sanctions are established by the U.S. Treasury Department and publicly available at https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Pages/Programs.aspx. They are not established on a whim, but on a defined process to preclude trading with nations that engage in practices inimical to U.S. interests. They apply to U.S. entities. Freelancers outside the U.S. should check with their own relevant ministry (treasury, foreign affairs).

I got approval to perform consulting work for a client in Sudan several years ago because the sanctions did not prohibit transfer of information. If what a U.S. freelancer is providing is only information, she will likely be approved to do the work. What qualifies as "information" may not be what a lay person would call information. In my case, I was consulting to a group of entrepreneurs wishing to build a factory. The client received business advice only.

[petra_r]

---

@Bill H wrote:

They apply to U.S. entities. Freelancers outside the U.S. should check with their own relevant ministry (treasury, foreign affairs).

---

 That applies to freelancers not working via Upwork. Freelancers and clients working via Upwork can not work with clients / freelancers in those countries via Upwork, regardless of where they are located, because Upwork can't do business with entities in those countries.

And no, Upwork won't try and obtain case-by-case exceptions for individual clients / freelancers.