Solved: income private?

mediaservicespro · ‎02-05-2021

I'm more than a little annoyed! Why is it that you can hide your earnings from everyone else except possible clients? In the real world most business relationships don't run that way so why should it matter on here? Like the real world they have access to reviews! Knowing how much you make SHOULD NOT MATTER and is a ridiculous rule on UPwork's part! !

mediaservicespro · ‎02-21-2021

With all repect, I disagree. Again, if you would ask your doctor or accountant how much they make, they would be offended I full-heartedly agree with showing reviews. THAT should be way more important than what you make. To me, that's an invasion of privacy. If people wants to show their earnings, then go for it, but that snot a rue.

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prestonhunter · ‎02-05-2021

Mindy,

Upwork's customers find this to be valuable, helpful information when looking for and finding freelancers.

lysis10 · ‎02-05-2021

Your revenue will play a big part in selling clients. I'd say more than reviews tbh.

moonraker · ‎02-06-2021

Mindy, imagine a freelancer applying for a $50/hour job. They are top-rated plus and have a JSS of 100%. That looks as though they are well qualified, right?

But they've never had a job for more than $10/hour. Don't you think that their previous rates would be a pretty good indicator of their ability? Freelancers generally try to raise their rates as much as they can until they come to a point where they start struggling to deliver what is needed. How much they charge is a good indicator of the level they are at.

colettelewis · ‎02-06-2021

Jamie F wrote:
Mindy, imagine a freelancer applying for a $50/hour job. They are top-rated plus and have a JSS of 100%. That looks as though they are well qualified, right?

But they've never had a job for more than $10/hour. Don't you think that their previous rates would be a pretty good indicator of their ability? Freelancers generally try to raise their rates as much as they can until they come to a point where they start struggling to deliver what is needed. How much they charge is a good indicator of the level they are at.

______________________

That is a pretty sweeping statement, which is also quite insulting.

moonraker · ‎02-06-2021

I really don't see how it is - people tend to be able to charge according to what they can offer. I'd charge more myself if I had the skills/ability.

2a05aa63 · ‎02-06-2021

I don't see anything insulting either. Sometimes the same service costs differently, but people would rather take a more expensive option. Quality and price are very tied closely together unless someone is trying to scam. Higher price has a higher expectation and responsibly some people cannot or aren't ready to offer yet.

mediaservicespro · ‎02-06-2021

I think it's invasion of privacy! I mean who goes to their accountant or pastor and says I want to see how much you have made before I do business with you? That DOES NOT happen in real life, now does it

rverang · ‎02-06-2021

Mindy T wrote:
I think it's invasion of privacy! I mean who goes to their accountant or pastor and says I want to see how much you have made before I do business with you? That DOES NOT happen in real life, now does it

One of the differences between the brick and mortar world and online freelancing.

lysis10 · ‎02-06-2021

Mindy T wrote:
I think it's invasion of privacy! I mean who goes to their accountant or pastor and says I want to see how much you have made before I do business with you? That DOES NOT happen in real life, now does it

True but sometimes being expensive helps you sell. Showing total earned on here gives the bigger players a sense of trust that you won't waste their time or money, you aren't a scammer, and you know what you're doing.

But you should do you boo and hide your earnings if that's what you want to do.

martina_plaschka · ‎02-09-2021

Mindy T wrote:
I'm more than a little annoyed! Why is it that you can hide your earnings from everyone else except possible clients? In the real world most business relationships don't run that way so why should it matter on here? Like the real world they have access to reviews! Knowing how much you make SHOULD NOT MATTER and is a ridiculous rule on UPwork's part! !

No, it's an important marketing tool, just as the hourly rate is.

mediaservicespro · ‎02-09-2021

NO IT'S NOT a marketing tool! That is the mos ridiculous thingv I have heard of! Again, if you asked your accountant or doctor how much they make, they would be extremely offended, so why is this any different? IT'S NOT! II'm done with this discussion

lysis10 · ‎02-09-2021

Mindy T wrote:
NO IT'S NOT a marketing tool! That is the mos ridiculous thingv I have heard of! Again, if you asked your accountant or doctor how much they make, they would be extremely offended, so why is this any different? IT'S NOT! II'm done with this discussion

It is, though. You're not in the position to understand or know what it's like. But like we've been saying, if you want to hide your earnings, you pay the monthly fee and you can hide them.

petra_r · ‎02-09-2021

Mindy T wrote:
NO IT'S NOT a marketing tool!

It is, provided you charge enough. You are simply not in any postion to understand that (yet).

Mindy T wrote:
That is the mos ridiculous thingv I have heard of!

You've clearly not encountered many ridiculous things yet.

kinector · ‎02-21-2021

Mindy, it's clear you are yet to understand the nature of global business. You're against the whole world out here. The only way you can make it is to specialize. Be better and more specialized so that you can charge more than the others. Then and only then you can avoid the race to the bottom, meaning the only way you win a job is to be cheaper than everyone else in the world.

The information about your earnings and previous rates being available to your potential clients makes them assess if they should hire YOU or someone else.

You want to be hired in the fortunate case the client has loads of money and really needs YOU in particular. Not the next guy. You specifically.

You don't want to be hired by window-shoppers, negotiators, googlers, scammers, etc. who simply waste your time and/or make you work for nickles.

One of the key deciding factor for the client who is looking for the BEST guy available is the social confirmation shown in the official track record of previous earnings. Total and hourly rate are good indicators of quality when they reflect the track record.

... which is why I will keep my earnings public now and forever. 😉

prestonhunter · ‎02-21-2021

The idea that a person's earnings should be private is an idea I think all of us have encountered before. It is a personal opinion, and I completely respect a person's right to hold this opinion.

For some people who hold this opinion, I don't think any amount of evidence or explanation will change their mind. Ultimately each individual considering using Upwork will need to decide for themself whether or not they are willing to use the site, knowing what they know about the site's policies.

There are millions of users who use Upwork, despite its earnings privacy policies. I do not doubt that there are people who do not use the site specifically for this reason.

Everybody in the world has the freedom to not use Upwork if they don't want to. So I don't think we need to arrive at a "final conclusion" about whether hiding one's earnings is good or bad. People have had both public and private earnings for thousands of years, and I don't think this will change any time soon.

growmyretail · ‎02-21-2021

I agree with Preston here.
I am on both sides, Client and Freelancer.
I often check the deliverables and size of work someone did.

Because one question I will always remember from 12 years ago was when Dell Computers asked me to deliver something. 'Can you handle it?'

Size and earnings of contracts from freelancers will be a good indicator if they can handle larger scopes or massive projects that require more responsibility and is reflected in their ask/hourly rate.

I love nothing more than to show my earnings because it will save me a lot of back and forth with clients trying to undermine my pricing or hourly rate. They either see if I am worth it (based on past results and earnings) or they will move on.

mediaservicespro · ‎02-21-2021

With all repect, I disagree. Again, if you would ask your doctor or accountant how much they make, they would be offended I full-heartedly agree with showing reviews. THAT should be way more important than what you make. To me, that's an invasion of privacy. If people wants to show their earnings, then go for it, but that snot a rue.

growmyretail · ‎02-21-2021

That depends on which side of the planet you live.
In Asia, it's fairly common to tell how much you earn. Even on a first date. You can debate that all you want. but being Eurasian, and living in the UK and Taiwan. I can pretty much say that's dependent on the country's culture.
That is a debate of another kind. That said, showing your earnings on a platform like UW is not an invasion of privacy, it's leverage to land bigger deals and jobs.

Do you really want to get job invitations that would be one-tenth of your actual hourly rate? I rather not. It's a waste of time.

On UW, I have atm about 125 USD per hour for things I do (and increasing till I get my actual rate because I know its a process to get there). Outside of UW, my real business I charge about 500 to a thousand dollars per hour. And people know it, they know the price and they know it's marked with value-based pricing and how big your clients are. I don't want to go into bed with some cheap people wanting everything, but pay nothing or even start a conversation that turns into a headache.

earnings add a level of prestige in many verticals. Showing earnings on UW adds an edge and a level of faith where many clients can be convinced to pay more for the value.

Showing earnings on your UW profile sets precedent. And it blocks the clients from even attempting to hassle or negotiate cheap pricing.

gilbert-phyllis · ‎02-22-2021

Mindy T wrote:
With all repect, I disagree. Again, if you would ask your doctor or accountant how much they make, they would be offended I full-heartedly agree with showing reviews. THAT should be way more important than what you make. To me, that's an invasion of privacy. If people wants to show their earnings, then go for it, but that snot a rue.

Agree with you that a person's income is nobody else's beeswax. But your obsession with the idea that someone looking at your UW hourly rate and fees can suss out your income is puzzling. Many of us derive only a portion of our annual income from UW contracts. I assume it is the case or could be the case for any UW freelancer. Meanwhile, as others have pointed out, being candid about what you've charged for past projects is one of the tools availablle for establishing a credible track record here. I'm primarily a FL here but occasionally hire others, too, and I would never consider hiring someone that concealed their past project fees because IMO there's no good reason to do it. I don't give a hoot how much they make in a year. I want to know that if they're quoting me $35/hour, that the past projects w/ good fb were at a comparable rate for comparable work and not performed at $5-10/hr for clients w/ low standards and/or willingness to give good fb in exchange for dirt-cheap prices.

bundie702 · ‎07-22-2021

" I don't give a hoot how much they make in a year. I want to know that if they're quoting me $35/hour, that the past projects w/ good fb were at a comparable rate for comparable work and not performed at $5-10/hr for clients w/ low standards and/or willingness to give good fb in exchange for dirt-cheap prices."

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Agreed. And what freelancers who do this might not realize is that their names and the amount they were paid show up on the hiring history of clients who pay very little (like $20 to edit and proofread a 15k manuscript), so it can easily be easily seen that they work for peanuts, even if their profile (once clicked on) shows a respectable hourly rate and a list of private earnings. I don't believe it's possible to hide identities in client hiring histories...

tta192 · ‎02-23-2021

Mindy T wrote:
With all repect, I disagree. Again, if you would ask your doctor or accountant how much they make, they would be offended I full-heartedly agree with showing reviews. THAT should be way more important than what you make. To me, that's an invasion of privacy. If people wants to show their earnings, then go for it, but that snot a rue.

No, they wouldn't be offended because you don't need to ask. These people operate as a business, and in most countries their financial indicators are public info. When you freelance on Upwork it's the same thing, and it shouldn't be an issue. Especially when you're talking about your own clients, who are supposed to know your name, address, etc (from the the invoices they receive from you).

In general, an employee has the right for the salary to be confidential. Where I live there's even an obligation for employees to keep this information secret; you're not allowed to tell your colleagues what you're being paid. But a freelancer is not an employee, thus the same cannot apply.

colettelewis · ‎02-23-2021

Mindy I think you should pay more attention to your profile portfolio and and to what violates Upwork's ToS (like read them) than to worry about who sees what you have earned on one job. Just sayin' ...

kevinjohe · ‎02-21-2021

Hi everyone,

Hiding money legally is easy and useful in this day's economy. There are no secrets in how to hide money legally. There's the old-fashioned under-the-mattress "safe," but that really isn't that safe. There are much safer ways these days. You can start by obtaining a safety deposit box.

m_sulaiman_ · ‎02-22-2021

I personally think revenue will help you get more clients then why hide it.

prestonhunter · ‎02-22-2021

re: "I personally think revenue will help you get more clients. Then why hide it?"

As Upwork freelancers, we are accustomed to this. I think most of us here don't give it much thought. It doesn't bother me.

But there are people who have a belief that "earnings should be private" or "income should be private."

When you ask why they believe that, they don't really have an answer. They do not cite a verse of scripture or a specific religious prohibition or a scientific study or a law or a mathematical calculation or statistic. Most people who hold this belief simply have grown up in a culture where this was a commonly held belief. So they are not used to having this belief challenged.

But even if they can not explain why they believe what they believe, that does NOT mean they are "wrong."

People who believe that earnings should be private are sincere in their belief. They should be treated with respect.

hglewis · ‎07-25-2021

Hello Mindy

I find this subject somewhat interesting.

I had no idea there would be so much back and forth, opinions, beliefs, and assumptions made whether an online business person hid their earnings or not.

Do I believe clients make decisions on whether they can see a freelancer's income or not? Sure!

Does that dictate I must show my income? Nope!

Will I lose clients because my income is hidden? Potentially!

At the end of the day, does it add to or take away from my life? Nope!

As a business owner, do what's best for your business. I do, and it's worked well for me, for many years!

Best of luck to you!

petra_r · ‎07-25-2021

Woodrow Q wrote:

Do I believe clients make decisions on whether they can see a freelancer's income or not? Sure!
Does that dictate I must show my income? Nope!
Will I lose clients because my income is hidden? Potentially!

You do understand that clients you apply to, clients who invite you and clients you work with can still see your past earnings, right?

hglewis · ‎07-25-2021

Hello Petra,

You bet I do!

Thanks for asking!