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laura_baldassarr
Community Member

Should I give a source file?

Hi,

 

I worked for a guy that needed a poster. He gave me an image he already had and wanted me to make the poster with the same style and the text in the same position.

We agreed on 3h and if there was more work to be done on the file he would add 2 more hours.

 

I worked more than 3 hours on the photoshop of this poster (it was a ancient book that showed the cover and that had light coming out from it with the character of the book sitting at the edge of the light), and he did not give me any material to work on so I had to do everything from new. But obviously I agrred for that time so it was fine.

 

When I sent the file the client was happy with the image but was not happy with the background and the text in the poster, which were exactly how he asked them but now he did not like them anymore and asked me if I could change those. I said I would be happy to but he needed to add more hours to the contract. At this point he said he was showing the design to a graphic designer friend of his and he would let me know.

This morning he has asked me the photoshop file to give to this other person. Now should I give the source file or that is not fair? I feel it is not but since I am new on oDesk I don't want to make silly mistakes. Anyone can advice?

28 REPLIES 28
yitwail
Community Member

While I can sympathize with your position, I think you should just give the client the PhotoShop file, as long as you're getting paid for the original 3 hours you agreed to. It would be nicer if he asked you to do further work, but if he wants to use another graphic designer for that, he has every right.

__________________________________________________
"No good deed goes unpunished." -- Clare Boothe Luce

Thank for your reply.

I will send the photoshop.

If you were being paid an hourly rate, you don't need to "give" the files to the client. The files already belong to him.

 

When you work on an hourly contract, everything you create while being paid belongs to the client. You should definitely turn over everything to the client, whether you finish or not, whether you continue working or not. That's work product that belongs to the person who paid for it.

harish
Community Member

Untile you are hired for a job proposal., never give  out any source files., .,

 

if any one start up a contract to hire., and payed if you its fixed., then u can very well send source., .

 

if u are hired hourly ., then u can send source file.., no worries for this model.

sfw19002
Community Member

Hourly contracts protect everyone involved.

 

Freelancer gets guaranteed payment and client won't be billed for time spent not working or on someone's else projects.

 

If this was an active hourly contract when you did the work, send the file. If there was no contract, no file.

lomen_jan
Community Member

I have similar (suspiciously similar, to be honest) job. Also making a poster on A3, but client insists that I send him fonts. too. How can I suggest him to stop begging me for fonts? Is there an Upwork policy what client can and cannot ask? In Laura's case I would send big PSD file, because they paid me. not sure in my case what should I do. (I converted type into outlines and sent ai file).

re: "Until you are hired for a job proposal., never give out any source files."

 

Until you are hired, there should NOT BE ANY source files.

 

You should not be doing any work for the client until you are officially hired.


@Preston H wrote:

re: "Untile you are hired for a job proposal., never give out any source files."

 

Until you are hired, there should NOT BE ANY source files.

 

You should not be doing any work for the client until you are officially hired.


What about if you are hired, but used your paid fonts? I guess that you should give them if they paid for that font specifically, but not if you are the one who owns it. I really want to know that since I have a clients who tries to extort fonts from me (both fonts used cost more than I have earned for job). Please Preston, I really like your reasoning and I need some adivce about it. 

Fonts?

Well, that's something of a niche question, but I understand what you mean.

 

If you buy software, whether it is Adobe Photoshop or a collection of fonts or one individual font, you are legally and morally obligated to abide by the license agreement associated with the purchase.

 

With fonts, that will typically mean that when you purchase fonts, the actual font files are something you may use on your computer system. It doesn't mean you can give them away.

 

So if you want to do everything aboveboard:

 

Read the license agreement. Abide by it.

 

Provide data files (such as Adobe Illustrator files) in which all fonts have been converted to vector graphics, AND provide a version which utilizes the original font. But don't send the font file. Tell the client that if she wants to use this special font, she can purchase it for herself. Or she can simply use the uneditable vectorized or rasterized files that don't require the fonts to be resident on the computer system, and come back to you if the text needs to be edited. Because you actually own the font, and she doesn't.

 

Or you can just stick to using only free fonts.

 

Anyway, it doesn't really matter what kind of policies Upwork has. Upwork can't grant you special ownership over software that supersedes a license agreement.

I told my client that, converted fonts to vector outlines. And now clients is blackmailing me for the fonts, calling me rude and unfair. I provided links where he can buy fonts. And yes, I use expensive fonts that i have bought with my money that I have earned with my blood sweat and tears (I exaggerate, but you get the point). They look desirable and polished. I said to my client it is actually the same as he asks his chef to give him knives to use, and belive me no chef would let you do that. I find it unethical delivery demnd, more than source file. I have read licence agreement, I can use them as a graphic designer, but I cannot hand them to third party in this case client. 

Hi Jan,

 

I'm not sure of the details of your job but blackmailing users is indeed a serious violation of our policy. You can share your concerns with Customer Support and submit any documentation you have regarding the incident, so we can take a detailed look.

~ Vladimir
Upwork

Jan, unfortunately you used some expensive fonts with a client who genuinely doesn't understand fonts as software and intellectual property.

 

From this client's perspective, you are blackmailing him. I know it sounds harsh, and I know you are trying to do the right thing, but it is important to understand the depth of difference in understanding here. To your client, you are the bad guy and he may have already reported you to Upwork. You have tried to explain something to somebody who lacks the same frame of reference as you. He is not a bad person, nor is he unintelligent, but he is not capable of understanding what you were trying to explain.

 

In the future, you need to NOT use proprietary, licensed fonts for clients unless you explain it beforehand as an option, and explain what the implications are.

 

For future use:

 

John:

Let me show you two versions of this design. One uses Arial Black, which you have by default on your computer. I think it is quite striking and will do the job. But for something more distinctive, I would like you to consider this version using a proprietary, licensed font, which you don't need to purchase if I provide you vector outlined files, but which you can buy from... if you want to edit the text in these files yourself...

 


@Preston H wrote:

Jan, unfortunately you used some expensive fonts with a client who genuinely doesn't understand fonts as software and intellectual property.

 

From this client's perspective, you are blackmailing him. I know it sounds harsh, and I know you are trying to do the right thing, but it is important to understand the depth of difference in understanding here. To your client, you are the bad guy and he may have already reported you to Upwork. You have tried to explain something to somebody who lacks the same frame of reference as you. He is not a bad person, nor is he unintelligent, but he is not capable of understanding what you were trying to explain.

 

In the future, you need to NOT use proprietary, licensed fonts for clients unless you explain it beforehand as an option, and explain what the implications are.

 


 

Preston, I highly value your input.

Designers do fitting typography options. according to task given.  I treat my fonts like my tools. If clients wants open file - that is fine. But if he wants to be all DIY over my design, he should buy those fonts or change them to some of his fonts. That is open file. I am not allowed to give away my fonts. It is the same if you go to painter and then ask him or her to give you his brushes. Client should be aware that he can ask, I can provide him with information where to buy them. He did not bought them for me. It is a poster after all. And main task is illustration with text on it. As a designer I can handwrite the text and I am capable to avoid fonts. 

On the other hand, my client could be a designer catfishing me as business owner. 

Client is really satisfied with my illustration, he told me that he finds it fantastic. It is kinda cheap job I took and If I give him my fonts that I used it will end like he bought fonts and got my illustration for free. 

I have never ever experienced a clients asking me for fonts so he can use them as he wishes. They all are perfectly fine if I use some high-end font to achieve their desired look and feel. If they are satisfied with the job I sent them prepped file for print after they put "amen" on design.  If they want open file, I will send them that too. God know what are they going to do with 300 MB PSD file with bazilion of layers, but i seen my design getting butchered afterwards. No biggie, just send me my money so I can buy more good looking fonts. 


@Vladimir G wrote:

Hi Jan,

 

I'm not sure of the details of your job but blackmailing users is indeed a serious violation of our policy. You can share your concerns with Customer Support and submit any documentation you have regarding the incident, so we can take a detailed look.


Passive agressive blackmailing is still blackmailing? Yes, I contacted support, we kinda agreed to put it as solved. 

Moj Vladimire, I really can't loose any sleep over that issue.  Ball is on the clients side of court.  You can hit me up over private message if you are interested. 

I know I'm late to the discussion, but clients need to know that we are bound by licincing restrictions for typefaces and that in many cases they can't install a typeface on their computer without paying for a licence. It's called stealing and it's illegal.

 

If they don't want to pay for a certain typeface, you can suggest common alternatives that they probably already have on their computer. 

 

For them to blackmail you is stupid on their part because what they're asking for is a violation of licencing agreements. If it happens again, alert UpWork that the client is making a demand that's in violation of licencing agreements.

 

Also, I don't send out source files unless they've asked for them in the proposal (and then I price accordingly). The way I clarify it is by saying "I will send you a print-ready PDF". 

Designers have right to use their licensed typefaces. We don't have to offer them cheaper option if the clients like what they see. If there is a typo, we can fix it. Unless they want abandon our services, they can always ask me where to get the fonts. If they don't like the fact that I've spent 50$ on 4 typefaces,  They can alwayys hire me back to fix thier typos or change text. 

@Briana R wrote:

 

 

Also, I don't send out source files unless they've asked for them in the proposal (and then I price accordingly). The way I clarify it is by saying "I will send you a print-ready PDF". 


Speaking of PDF,

Client: I want .ai file.

Me: It is PDF that is illustrator editable.

Client: Still I want .ai file

Me: Just open the PDF in illustrator. It is the same as .ai, but I preffer to send you as PDF so you can view it withour Illustrator.

husnainraza
Community Member

he paid for the work you did so far, if you worked hourly based you payment is gauranteed

 

he has the right to have and play with it as it pleases him.

 

sometime they play with tools they can find online or older version and when they realize, its not their cup of tea they re-hire you.

alanplanes15
Community Member

Hi Laura!

 

I am honestly surprised that others are recomending you send the original file. From all of my research as a freelancer I have read that the original files are yours, the client is paying for the final image and not source files unless you specifically sign a contract giving him the rights to the Photoshop file.

 

The problem about this is clients may take your work and use it as template for all of their future projects, something they should pay a lot more to do.

 

It is like taking your car to the mechanic, and then asking the mechanic to give you his tools after he is done. 

 

There are many online posts about this subject you can research.

 

I maybe unaware,though, that Upwork through hourly payment gives the client the right to all files.  If so please correct me on this.

 

I maybe unaware,though, that Upwork through hourly payment gives the client the right to all files.  If so please correct me on this.

 


https://www.upwork.com/legal/

 

OWNERSHIP OF WORK PRODUCT AND INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY

Upon Freelancer’s receipt of full payment from Client, the Work Product, including without limitation all Intellectual Property Rights in the Work Product, will be the sole and exclusive property of Client, and Client will be deemed to be the author thereof. If Freelancer has any Intellectual Property Rights to the Work Product that are not owned by Client upon Freelancer’s receipt of payment from Client, Freelancer hereby automatically irrevocably assigns to Client all right, title and interest worldwide in and to such Intellectual Property Rights. Except as set forth above, Freelancer retains no rights to use, and will not challenge the validity of Client’s ownership in, such Intellectual Property Rights. Freelancer hereby waives any moral rights, rights of paternity, integrity, disclosure and withdrawal or inalienable rights under applicable law in and to the Work Product. If payment is made only for partial delivery of Work Product, the assignment described herein applies only to the portion of Work Product delivered.

 

The original files are yours when you make them, absolutely. This should be worked into your original fee in my opinion if the client wants them normally, but on upworks they auto-transfer the rights to the client. You can make your own terms though I think {btw, I am not sure about this, it was allowed on elance} before starting the contract for the client to agree to, and if not, you can also add the amount to the contract in your bid. In the design industry, people usually charge a % of the full cost. Some designers just pass them over and consider it a part of the job like myself. 

 

Licensed font files should not be shared and created into outlines. You also need to ensure that is ok sometimes because there are fonts that don't allow outlines. If the client doesn't like this, I would recommend a similar font that is free to use. If there isn't anything similar, there really isn't much that can be done. To me that doesn't mean at all that a licensed font shouldn't be used! Licensed fonts are often far better looking depending on the one you use. 

 

My tip is to let clients know what they will get in your proposal to avoid complications if it is possible. 

pwrsrg
Community Member

Again, per Upwork's User Agreement, ALL resulting files (NOT fonts) belong to the CLIENT.

 

"The Work Product, including without limitation all Intellectual Property Rights in the Work Product, will be the sole and exclusive property of Client."

 

https://www.upwork.com/legal/

 

Any freelancer that tries to fight this will be banned from Upwork.

afifield
Community Member

Yeah but that doesn't mean you can't charge for them. LOL 

 

That is up to the designer and is standard for many in the industry.

 

 I'm not sure if you can make your own terms like it was on elance as I've never done that. I always include the cost into my pricing or give them away if it is something I deem fine to do. I don't charge extra for mine, unless there is a good reason like the file is a very large in dept project full of my artwork. 

 

It is up to you what you want to do. If the client wants the file, which I personally always assume will be the case, I add it to the pricing if I think I should. I would never ask them for more afterwards when they ask me. This is how I avoid issues. It isn't complex.

 

For example, if you created a large file with many, many complex layers and artwork that the client will have full access to for editing, there are times when some designers would charge for that. Some charge for all the creations they make. 

pwrsrg
Community Member

If you can get away with it and the client doesn't know any better then go ahead.  (though it reflects very poorly on both the freelancer and the Upwork community)

 

But if Upwork were to learn that a freelancer was charging extra for what a client already owns, then that freelancer would almost certainly be banned for sure.

afifield
Community Member

What? How is it a poor reflection for me to charge for something I made with software that I have to pay for? It absolutely is fine and isn't unethical or a bad reflection for the community. That makes no sense. 

 

Actually, upworks doesn't care about that. They want the money too from you. As long as you include it in your fee and let the client know what's going on, it is 100% fine. Your intellectual property on upworks is YOURS until payment changes hands. Once that is done, the client owns what you have included for files in your final file delivery. Clients most always want the native file because they can edit it and use it, for example, to scale artwork larger or smaller without quality loss, or to get another designer to make changes for less even. You should let them know off the bat what you are including into the price. If you don't, it is your fault if the client gives you a bad rating. If they report you and you didn't have in your proposal that the native file is included and gave them a PDF, for example, that isn't editable but has the work in high quality for the hours you worked, I can't see how upworks can really make you hand it over.

 

To me it is just creating conflict if you don't let your client know exactly what they get at the end of the project though! I will let them know exactly what deliverables they will get from me when the project is complete and money changes hands. I will let them know if my native file cost extra or if a certain font will cost more. If they don't like that, I don't take on the project. 

 

Here is a link just to show that people do actually charge sometimes. It is important to include any cost into your fee on upworks though prior to being hired so the client is aware and to let the client know what is included in your proposal so that when the IP is transfered you are covered for your work if it is in fact what you want to do. 

https://graphicdesign.stackexchange.com/questions/8478/charging-an-intellectual-property-transfer-fe...

 

I personally don't charge very often for the native files unless it is very complex work, but the fact is you can if you feel it should be included in the price for the client. It is afterall your software you are using and also your creation with layers and ability to edit that file. Freelancers can charge what they need for the project, and just know if you don't tell them that you won't provide them with the native file that they may not understand this and be upset. 

 

As for licensed fonts or any license for something you have purchased like photos, that is a whole different ball game. Just because you purchased it doesn't mean it is yours to sell or give to the client unless you turn it into vector art. Some may not even allow that which is why you need to read your font's license. This is why I inform the client when I am using a licensed font that it could be expensive, and I normally include more in my original fee if thhe font has to be purchased or client fronts the cost. I have never faced this problem much on upworks and if you aren't sure you should talk to upworks support to see if their user agreement accounts for this. I think this part may have something to do with it: 

 

LICENSE TO OR WAIVER OF OTHER RIGHTS

If Freelancer has any right to the Work Product, including without limitation any Intellectual Property Right, that cannot be assigned to Client by Freelancer, Freelancer hereby automatically, upon Freelancer’s receipt of full payment from Client, unconditionally and irrevocably grants to Client during the term of such rights, an exclusive, even as to Freelancer, irrevocable, perpetual, worldwide, fully-paid and royalty-free license to such rights, with rights to sublicense through multiple levels of sublicensees, to reproduce, make derivative works of, distribute, publicly perform and publicly display in any form or medium, whether now known or later developed, make, use, sell, import, offer for sale and exercise any and all such rights. If Freelancer has any rights to such Work Product that cannot be assigned or licensed, Freelancer hereby automatically, upon Freelancer’s receipt of payment from Client, unconditionally and irrevocably waives the enforcement of such rights, and all claims and causes of action of any kind against Client or related to Client’s customers, with respect to such rights, and will, at Client’s request and expense, consent to and join in any action to enforce such rights.  If payment is made only for partial delivery of Work Product, the grant described herein applies only to the portion of Work Product delivered.

 

This is pretty complex and you need to be careful here with how you do things. Some fonts and other files don't give you these rights with a basic purchase. The most important thing is to ensure you communicate effectively with the client and if they need the font file, you should make sure the rights you have can allow it before using the font. You should read what rights you have yourself to the font. 

 

In Laura's case it was hourly and she has been paid for the files she has given to the client thus far, and if she wants she can charge more since that file was NOT provided for the hours she did, then it is still her IP. However, if it wasn't discussed with the client what he would get from the proposal like the photoshop file and he was under the impression you would do it in PSD and that he wanted that file at the cost you created it for, I would recommend just letting him have the file to avoid issues. This is why I say it is very important to tell clients what they are getting from the beginning. Something like: 

 

"I will give you the file in vector format (Illustrator original file, eps) so that you can resize to any scale without losing quality for other marketing materials, and I will give you the files in JPG, PNG, GIF, and if possible in other formats you may need in the size you require. If you need a different type of file, please let me know and I will try to accomadate if it is possible."

 

I add this for people and if I need to change it, I do. I think you actually can make a contract too that can supersede the Upworks one, but not sure on that. If that is possible, I would do that or at least discuss with the client prior to being hired. It probably will be harder to get hired with too many rules for the client and less deliverables on here, but if you have a complex project where a lot of art is used and you want sell the native file, I feel that is fine. 

pwrsrg
Community Member

OMG, STOP editing your reply and make up your mind already!  I have gotten 24 edit emails!  Smiley Frustrated

afifield
Community Member

Had some things to add actually. Who cares if I edit something, it is a forum. I have the right to do so. I am putting this here for other designers, not you.  If you don't like it, turn off your notifications. It wasn't as many as what you are saying either. I was editing to add about Laura's case. 

Send every render as flatten image - that is what client is paying for. End image. You are free to flatten layers if you are confident that it is desired end result. Convert fonts to outlines. Client does not own your fonts, your brushes, references, stock photos that you have bought, plugins you used, etc...

Why would client need your fonts anyway? 

so yes, they can have psd, ai whatever native files, but there can be just single flatten image after all. 

 

 

 

after the work is done, designer need that image just to decor their portfolios and place those folders into archive. 

Personally I rarely reuse something from my past jobs unless it is 100% rejected work.